How is Dead Hard still a thing that exists?

You can't counter an OP perk with a terrible one. As if getting value out of Blood Echo is a consistent thing!

Yes it can. Just don't heal after the first down and you can still use Dead Hard. And in the case of someone like a chainsaw killer, you can pretty much force them to M1 you at loop.

When dead hard gets nerfed are you guys going to complain about the other exhaustion perks? Sprint burst is better than dead hard if you ask me, it's just less annoying because it doesn't happen in the middle of chase. Lithe works better for me than dead hard and is more annoying to deal with. Not only do they make it to the pallet or window, they get to abandon the chase and the killer's time would be wasted unless he wants to waste more time catching up to the survivor. At least with dead hard you will eventually down them.

What are you too scared to debate?

I never said dead hard never works, major strawman , "guy".

Oh my god exactly, Dead Hard extends the chase the same as the other Exhaustion perks.

The different between them is Dead Hard cannot be used to move into a safer area as effectively as the others.

I rather have sprint burst because in some generator spawns they have quite literally no windows or pallets to go to nearby if the killer decides to come around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlmBSF80GDo

The reason why Dead Hard is hated among killers is because it's the most "In Your Face" move they can do and their less annoyed when a survivor sprint bursts away. And Sometimes the sprint burst often gives way better results.

all you’ve done on this thread is try to “tough talk” people. Like sit down and stay down? Lmao.

Im not going to do anything because you’re acting like a child.

I can tell you’re one of those “change my mind” guys that will never think about accepting the other side of an argument and instead just try to belittle the other side to make yourself look better.

😂. I said I’m not going to argue the dead hard topic with you, because I’ve seen you blatantly disregard valid points from multiple people and try to shove words back in their mouth.

And you’re in no place to talk about “cringe”, every reply in this thread from you has been “cringe”.

Dead hard < insta down killers aka all my mains but Huntress

Both second chances that often reward getting outplayed? Pretty fair imo.

Okay, tell me why Bloodlust is still a thing?

And once you did, that's the reason why exhaustion perks like DH still exists and they will last until BL is gone.

Don't get me wrong, I truly hate this perk. But the survivors who are knowing how to use it correctly are just buying their distance back you just got passively for doing nothing except W'ing.

We all know it's busted like most exhaustables too. But as long as Killer also gets bonus distance for free there is no reason taking it away from survivors.

I mean, they are forced in a straight line to where their character is looking at, they cannot curve, or massively change direction last second.

Yknow, like PH, Huntress, Billy, Oni, Nurse, Doctor, Bubba having massive mobility while being able to instadown, Plague, Pig, Killer lunges in general.

Dead Hard is easy to deal with. Either force it out early in a chase, or bait it. Not that big of a deal.

As killer i hate it but as survivor its one of my must have perks. Dead hard has a chance for some interesting game play by extending loops. While yeah it can be too strong sometimes if you catch them out in the open and they dead hard it does nothing. Compared to the other exhaustion perks dead hard is clearly superior in every way.

"rarely works"

You literally only have to press a key to reach a window or a pallet. It was not designed exclusively to dodge the killer's hitboxes.

Fun when everyone says "Sprint Burst is way better than Dead Hard", if that were true, SB would be in the meta and it's not near to being meta.

Le me doing a Generator for 80 seconds.

In all honesty thought that 60 secs isn't much if you consider Killer can't chase 4 survivors at the same time.

You cannot bait out a dead hard if they are smarter than you*.

And yes, if its used at a loop, they will need to drop a pallet for their dead hard to have any real value. If they can use dead hard to keep a pallets standing, you're the one doing somethign wrong.

And so what if they can do it as a hail mary? You know what else is done as a hail mary? Lunging when a pallet is being dropped. Sometimes it hits, sometimes it doesnt. Just like Dead Hard.

"Good survivors will use it to make distance and get to a pallet and drop it to extend the chase"

Just like good killers will use a lunge to close distance if they are dropping one way to shorten the chase. Just like good killers will use a lunge to bait a pallet being dropped that they want gone ASAP.

Works both ways. Want to get rid of dead hard? Get rid of lunges too.

Except that lunges used to be smaller and were movementspeed dependend. It's actually Dead Hard that made Lunges a set mechanic. So they are linked. Besides, Dead Hard is part of the game, everyone has access to it. End of discussions.

"Almost all of the killers on the roster are countered by dead hard for distance - a PERK that you're given for free WHILE being injured, which means you're given the perk for losing in your chase."

Mechanics that killers have access to through perks: 25% regression for free that you get for hooking(which you're supposed to do anyway). Aura readings that you get for free while hooking. Aura readings that you get for free when survivors do gens. Instadowns that you get for free by letting survivors unhook teammates.

Then lets add on the VANILLA mechanics that killers have access to that cannot be countered by VANILLA survivor mechanics: Slugging multiple survivors, camping, tunneling, their abilities(which, unlike survivor items, they dont need to refresh).

"It is literally impossible for Dead Hard to NOT be unbalanced."

Well, with your logic: Ruin is not balanced, Pop is not balanced, Make Your Choice is not balanced, killer addons are not balanced. BBQ is not balanced.

The game has been balanced with Dead Hard in mind. Again, Lunges were BALANCED around Dead Hard when Dead Hard was released. Do you want old lunges back? Because old lunges were not able to reach through windows or across fences.

Essentially, all killers were given a basekit Dead Hard to deal with Dead Hard.

"All of the things above were created in a time where the developers lacked an understanding of their game's balance."

Just like Dead Hard was able to be used mid-air FOR DISTANCE, which, mind you, is no longer possible even though killer kept that ability.

Dead Hard is fine.

"Dead Hard was created during this time (2016-2018) and applies to this."

See the previous statement, where Dead Hard has been adjusted in the following ways: The speed curve has been altered to match the animation(the animation used to finish before Dead Hard was finished, meaning Dead Hard was nerfed mechanically). Removed the distance made mid-air, also nerfing Dead Hard as Dead Harders used to be able to Dead Hard through certain windows mid-air. Windows that a lot of killers are still able to go through mid-air.

Dead Hard is fine.

"So...it's free, but then it's not free? Pop rewards you for a hook. I don't see the connection to Dead Hard's condition of being hit by a killer, which is the killer doing their job properly."

Dead Hard isnt free either, it requires you to be injured. You cannot get injured for free. You literally have to get hit by the killer to make Dead Hard work, which is part of a survivor's job. If you never get hit all game, you're most likely sandbagging your teammates. Prayer beads didnt have a cost of use, there was no penalty. Omega Blink Nurse didnt have a cost, there was no penalty. Dead Hard HAS a cost of being injured. Preferably, survivors dont want to be injured if that option arises. Survivors want to be uninjured over being injured. It's just that in quite a lot of cases, there is no time to heal up if you want to win a game, thus staying injured is more preferable.

"No, once again, you get rewarded for a hook by BBQ. "For free for hooking" makes no sense at all. You're contradicting yourself."

Just like you need to get injured as a surv to use dead hard. Dead Hard doesnt work if you're instadowned, Dead Hard doesnt work against a Bubba, Dead Hard doesnt work against a Plague with Red Vom, Dead Hard doesnt work against a killer that baits it. Dead Hard doesnt work against a Nurse. Dead Hard doesnt work against a Pig, Dead Hard doesnt work against a Wraith, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Demo unless used for side stepping quickly, Dead Hard doesnt work against Trickster, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Blight, Dead Hard doesnt really work against Doctor(you cant do anything for 2.5 seconds after each shock). Let alone that survivors are exhausted after using Dead Hard. For all intents and purposes, it's a 1 time trigger per individual hook. Which is why I compared it to Pop in the first place. Add exhaustion inducing addons or perks in the mix, and they cant even use Dead Hard. So if you consider Dead Hard to be free, even though you're an instadown at that point, I will consider Pop to be free. Being injured is sacrificing a health state for a dash that can be baited. You dont have to do anything special to trigger BBQ or Pop after hooking a survivor, it literally comes for free while you hook someone.

"Uh, if you don't think you can counter slugging without an anti-slug/healing perk, I'm not sure what to tell you mang. Getting mass slugged is on your team."

Nope, plenty of examples where mass-slugging just happens out of killer momentum being able to chain together. Nurse Infectious Fright slugfests are pretty much the most common Nurse encounter. Nothing you can do about that as a survivor. You NEED anti-slug perks to counter that, no vanilla mechanics to do so.

"yep, which is why I also hate camping and tunneling. should not be in the game. both things are, as I said with dead hard, available to do because they weren't prevented by the devs during a time where they lacked an understanding of their game's balance. both of these things are extremely unhealthy and require 0 skill and do not belong in an online pvp game."

Except that like Dead Hard, sometimes you need to camp, sometimes you need to tunnel. You cannot nerf these 3 things in the game, unless you want to nerf lunges, nerf gens to death and give all killers access to instadowns in a vanilla way. Which gives more reason to keep dead hard in the game, which gives more reason for people to find ways to rush gens, which gives more reason to camp and tunnel. You can dislike these things, that doesnt mean they're broken. Worst case scenario, you could add a punishment to them, but that doesnt really solve the issue you personally are having.

"Incorrect. Ruin rewards gen pressure and can be completely destroyed at any moment in the match. Pop rewards hooks. Make Your Choice is not a perk design I'm a fan of at all, but its effect is not as strong as Dead Hard"

Lets go back to what you stated before: "Dead Hard is not a base mechanic, thus, the game is not balanced around survivors having a powerful dash completely for free." Pop is not a base mechanic that you completely get for free. As for "rewards the use of vanilla mechanic X", let me remind you that you're not really losing a chase as a survivor for getting injured. The game is literally designed to guarantuee hits for killers. Survivors cannot remain uninjured all game as a whole. So getting hit is not "losing the chase". You "lose" a chase based on the time it takes to get a hit. Dead Hard rewards survivors for distracting the killer succesfully, not for losing a chase. Otherwise I could say that any instadown in the game rewards the killer for not being able to keep long chases. Pop punishes survivors for not succesfully finishing a gen/pushing the wrong gen. Dead Hard punishes a killer for not succesfully ending a chase/unsuccesfully baiting Dead Hard. Both can really hurt the game for the opponent if they are used in an optimal way, both are really annoying to deal with, but both can be baited quite heavily and barely have any impact if done so. I have sometimes left gens on 50% on purpose, knowing that the killer would waste his Pop on that, while I finished a gen that was at 70% 16 meters further. Sure, 20 seconds of my time were "wasted" on that 50% gen, but in exchange, another, more crucial generator was finished. Same logic can be applied to dead hard. I've forced survivors to dead hard, then leave the chase, only to come back 30 seconds later while they were distracted and working on a generator in a dead zone, without dead hard in their arsenal, they were just easy pickings.

Yes, the perk is annoying to deal with, but annoying isnt really a reason to nerf something. I rather see more exhaustion inducing perks(Mindbreaker is really nice against Dead Hard. They have to stand still or walk for 5 full seconds if they want their Dead Hard back. If they are already injured, they wont have enough time to remove their exhaustion). Preferably a hex that adds exhaustion on survivors for 90 seconds if triggered. But other than that? Exhaustion perks are fine. I'd argue that Sprintburst is far more broken than Dead Hard. Anything Dead Hard can do, Sprintburst can do better.

"Killer basekits are balanced around their addons, as confirmed by the developers, so that's not correct either." Again, my point was that because it's not a basemechanic, it's a thing they get for free just by applying it.

"And that failed. Lunges do not counter Dead Hard unless it is used improperly."

If you're touching a survivor, you can start a lunge, and still hit a dead harding survivor. So yes, I'd argue they DO counter dead hard. In the same way that Dead Hard counters a lunge. But if you're out in the open, the best Dead Hard will do is buy you 2 more seconds before you're downed. Because Dead Hard slows you down at the end. It's curve goes from 250% MS, to 200% MS, and at the end drops to 80% MS(walk speed) for a few frames. Meaning survivors need to start running again, and running itself is a speedcurve. This is why you cannot Dead Hard and speed vault a window if you dead hard too late. You need some distance to go back to 100%.

"by pressing a SINGLE BUTTON, nothing else. How fun is it to make 5 perfect blight rushes, go for a swing, just for them to press a button and completely undo your outplay. Crazy.)"

Ah, yes, as if Blight didnt close distance regardless of Dead Hard, as if Blight doesnt regain tokens back quick enough to close that distance and still get a hit. All Dead Hard does against most killers, is extend the chase with a few seconds. In the case that Dead Hard would extend the chase massively, it might not be worth to keep on chasing. Decisions are a big part of being a killer. Exhaustion remains for 40 seconds if they stop running(again, if you run Mindbreaker, they literally cannot work on a gen for 40 seconds if they want Dead Hard back), you could return within 30 seconds and catch them off-guard, in an area they didnt want to be, not having access to their perk. Just by 1 single decision you make. Imagine that, you get downed very quickly because the killer made 1 SINGLE DECISION, nothing else. How fun is it to loop a killer well into a good bait and keeping looping momentum, only for them to deny your momentum by leaving you alone for 30 seconds, making it feel safe enough to work on a gen, only for them to down you quickly while they have the upperhand.

Again, Dead Hard is fine.

"You do not design a game around players not having a dodge ability, then add a dodge ability and create nothing that actually counters it."

You do realize pallet vacuums were essentially what Dead Hard is? The game was balanced with pallet vacuums in mind. Later they removed it, because having both dead hard AND pallet vacuums was a bit too much. Dead Hard has plenty of counters. Again, Mindbreaker is your best friend.

"rewards survivors for getting INJURED (you compare this condition to getting hooks? really?)"

ahem Rewards survivors for DISTRACTING THE KILLER. Which, yes, is compared to hooks. It's part of the survivor's job to distract the killer and be chased. If being chased wasnt part of the survivors' job, there would be no looping mechanics at all.

"It destroys killer abilities"

Inconveniences killer abilities, but yes, just like all other exhaustion perks. Let alone that killer abilities tend to inconvenience survivors too. I mean, literally, try avoid getting hit during an entire chase. Seriously, try it. I doubt you'll be able to avoid getting hit at all, meaning all you can do as a survivor is lose a chase. There is no "winning" a chase if the killer keeps chasing. All there is, is distracting the killer away from your teammates.

"and completely breaks chases when used properly. It doesn't belong in DBD, sorry man."

I mean, killer abilities being used properly can completely prevent chases. Wraith can literally down you before you can loop him. Does that mean Wraith doesnt belong in DBD? Billy can bodyblock you in a corner and down you without chasing you, does that mean Billy doesnt belong in DBD either? Huntress can do damage to you across the map without ever chasing you, does that mean Huntress doesnt belong there either? Doc can prevent you from dropping pallets and vaulting windows, Trickster can use his knives to down you quickly after already hitting you, Trapper can literally down you by placing down a trap and ignoring it all game, Hag can prevent people from unhooking without mass slugging. I can go on. There are many, MANY killer mechanics in the game that are much more powerful than Dead Hard is, and much more uncounterable than Dead Hard. Yes, Dead Hard can be really annoying to deal with, but it does belong in DBD. It's been in the game for over 4 years. It has been a meta perk for 4 years. The devs definitely have balanced killers with Dead Hard in mind. They have balanced perks with dead hard in mind. They cannot balance YOUR decision to keep chasing a survivor that used Dead Hard to reach an unused area of the map. That mistake is on you. Sometimes it's best to quit a chase and interrupt other survivors and push them into area's the previous survivor has used for easy downs, rather than chasing the same survivor for another 30 seconds. If Dead Hard is one of your most hated perks, start running Mindbreaker. If you think it's so broken and needs a counter, use a perk that actively counters it. If you dont think Mindbreaker is worth a slot, you're simply agreeing that Dead Hard isnt as much as an issue as you claim it to be.

Like all exhaustion perks, Dead Hard is designed to extend chases and provide survivors a small safety net that can let them loop for just a little longer to waste a killer's time. Killers should be winning chases they commit to 100% of the time. They're faster, can hit through vault spots and can attempt to mind-game survivors to get them to lose; this isn't even to mention some killer powers are great chase abilities, looping gives the survivors a way to extend the chase long enough for their survivors to complete objectives. Sprint Burst is no worse than Dead Hard, allowing survivors to get a massive head start on killers the moment they're seen, Lithe allows you to abuse common looping spots to gain a boost to extend a chase even further, Balanced Landing can let survivors utilize drops to their advantage where they would normally be at a disadvantage.

You need to either bait it out, take it, or use addons like Huntress' Venomous Concoction to counter it and to be honest it's fine the way it is. It's best utilized as a means for survivors to get to a pallet or vault spot they might not have been able to in an effort to extend the chase a little bit.

Fortunately, from my experience it's never a good perk for trying to take hits as this game's net-code can often work against the survivor.

If a survivor is giving you that much trouble stop chasing them and go for someone else. It is not the fault of Dead Hard that you cannot win the chases you start.

Yes because as a solo survivor i have to do all the gens, get unhooks and find all totems on a map like lery's or Midwich. Sure bud.

NoED isn't op. It just makes bad players reliant on it and unable to actually "get gud"

Its an unhealthy perk. Killer is the easiest it's ever been right now. As a killer main is gross seeing so many entitled killers wanting a free 4k and complaining 24/7 and shooting down any survivor grievances

I want all totems to be easy to find when playing in Soloq mode, is that what you just said?

On a serious note, well that is the POINT of playing in SoloQ, you risk depending more on your teammates and without communication, If the bones are so much a problem for you, you are free to play in SWF to have a more organized team.

And yes, NOED is not OP but it needs a change because it rewards bad killers.

However, as I already said, you cannot compare a change between NOED and DH since they are 2 very different things.

Please don't make fun of me. It's really hurting that you say it with such arrogance. It doesn't even relate to this thread at all. I feel bad now..............