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Should self care be part of the basic survivor kit?

AshleyWB
AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
in General Discussions
The grind to get the self care teachable so you can unlock it on another survivor you want to play is far too long to do.

A lot of new players are like huh what how do I heal. 

95% of people run self care. New players who don't have self care and are at low ranks (16-20) must skew the data devs collect for going into matches less equipped than those at high ranks.

I've had friends put this game down because of having to do so much to unlock healing.

This game should do what it can to attract new players and be loyal to it's veteran players.

The only issue people will have is that they won't allow new players to get self care for free when they play any survivor for the first time. Because they had to unlock it when they first played.

Rework the self care perk to do something different than being able to heal. 
Give new players a level playing field.
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Comments

  • ReneAensland
    ReneAensland Member Posts: 838

    It took me a week or so.....

  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    I can make the same argument with any perk

    Claudette I free and have self cared llvl1
    She's the most camo friendly (she's secretly solid snake)

    I agree grinding is tedious but as said I can make this argument for any perk

    You wanna attract more players but penalizing the old ones with these changes. In any pvp game you have to learn the game to improve, you can't give everything to everyone since the start ( even if as said Claudette have it lvl1) 
  • AshleyWB
    AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
    @ReneAensland A week just to be able to heal. That is exactly what I mean.
    First impressions of a game is important and being slapped acrossed the face being told you will lose horribly as soon as you load into a game is not welcoming to newbies.
  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
    The grind is a part for any perk and character, I say earn it or spend some shards. I'd say give it as base kit, with the exception that it only moves you from injured to healthy. No curing status effects, no wake up, and extended time so that while it is an option friends are more viable.
  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    AshleyWB said:
    @ReneAensland A week just to be able to heal. That is exactly what I mean.
    First impressions of a game is important and being slapped acrossed the face being told you will lose horribly as soon as you load into a game is not welcoming to newbies.
    I answered you before about it but if you need an example is like asking to introduce in a fighting game and autocombo that everybody use it but its fairly hard to master just smashing one button

    Would be unfair for the older players. Especially in this case where you actually give on free slot to survivors and make it even worse for killers. Just use Claudette at level one

    When I started I played feng cuz I couldn't skill check properly and now I main her anyway, if I needed heal I took a med kit
  • AshleyWB
    AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
    With healing being such a widespread mechanic in the game. It is only fair that this mechanic can be done for all survivors across the board.

    Other perks are not part of basic survival so they wouldn't be needed for new players.

    It seems like in design when this game released. Claudette was meant to be a healing class however each survivor nowadays is just a reskin of another. It doesn't fit anymore this game had changed so much since then. I think this is a balance change needed for new players to be able to get hooked playing dbd.
  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    AshleyWB said:
    With healing being such a widespread mechanic in the game. It is only fair that this mechanic can be done for all survivors across the board.

    Other perks are not part of basic survival so they wouldn't be needed for new players.

    It seems like in design when this game released. Claudette was meant to be a healing class however each survivor nowadays is just a reskin of another. It doesn't fit anymore this game had changed so much since then. I think this is a balance change needed for new players to be able to get hooked playing dbd.
    No. I've explained it twice so read it up

    Your balance thoughts are flawed. I started few months ago, on the BBQ event, never felt I needed this change
  • AshleyWB
    AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
    You shouldn't be forced to play Claudette if you want to heal. Thats my point. You could bring a med kit but it's a whole lot easier for old players to heal than it is for new players.

    I am a complete no life at this game and It irritates me how hard of a time new players have with having access to the actual important survival mechanics this game has.
  • Visionmaker
    Visionmaker Member Posts: 2,051
    edited December 2018

    @brokedownpalace said:
    95% of survivors definitely don't use it. A lot less now that it's been nerfed by the healing changes. And no, it shouldn't be part of the base kit. 

    It's more like 80%.

    If they're going to even the playing field between solo and SWF, it should be part of base kit. They should add in a regression for all healing as a counterbalance too.

  • AshleyWB
    AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
    Learning the game is different to being able to grind to be able to start learning the game.

    It wouldn't be bad on older players because the new players are probably idiot's anyway. They're new and clueless and this would increase the number of players sticking around.

    It would hurt new killers a little but the healing takes so long that it shouldn't be too bad.
  • powerbats
    powerbats Member Posts: 7,068

    The easiest way is to play Claudette, unlock ehr teachable and then farm points up on her so that you can then get the teachable on the person you want.

    For killers wanting Hex:Ruin or BBQ they have to go through same thing and survivors wanting SC/DS/SB/AD/DH/ whatever ever perk and insert killer equivalents here.

    Both sides have to grind for something they want not be given it for free other wise why play if everything is given to you for free?

  • JanTheMan
    JanTheMan Member Posts: 495
    I don't even use self care anymore it just takes to fudgeing long, besides every killer run nurse's calling.
    It waste time and gives away my location, ha no thanks I'll just use Iron Will and be on my marry way ;D
  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    AshleyWB said:
    You shouldn't be forced to play Claudette if you want to heal. Thats my point. You could bring a med kit but it's a whole lot easier for old players to heal than it is for new players.

    I am a complete no life at this game and It irritates me how hard of a time new players have with having access to the actual important survival mechanics this game has.
    I know you love ignoring who answers you but I explained why this would be pretty dumb. Survivors won't every bring a med kit unless its an Insta heal and you would give a free slot for survivors so they will actually have 5 slots

    Take left 4 dead for example, there you can't heal uunless you have a med kit. Kinda the same thing

    I agree the grinding I tedious but your motivations are silly, me players need to learn, on of the reasons you cant derank past 15. A game shouldnt be easy since the start, is the core concept of a videogame get better and learn. You just wanna land another help to every survivors giving 5 slots. No
  • AshleyWB
    AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
    This isn't a change for us older players, it's for the new players coming in and giving dbd a try out. We need to make sure as a community they can be able to heal reasonably quickly into their dbd lifetime.
  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    AshleyWB said:
    This isn't a change for us older players, it's for the new players coming in and giving dbd a try out. We need to make sure as a community they can be able to heal reasonably quickly into their dbd lifetime.
    OK now I'm sure you're a troll

    6/10
  • AshleyWB
    AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
    I don't see why this is such a divisive issue. It takes way too long for new players to be able to heal. They shouldn't need to grind med kits just to be able to be healed. It is easier for players able to heal themselves because of having self care.

    I am listening Feng min avatar person but I don't see it as fair. Its a barrier to new players which is infuriating and some don't want to play anymore because the early grind is too much.


  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    AshleyWB said:
    I don't see why this is such a divisive issue. It takes way too long for new players to be able to heal. They shouldn't need to grind med kits just to be able to be healed. It is easier for players able to heal themselves because of having self care.

    I am listening Feng min avatar person but I don't see it as fair. Its a barrier to new players which is infuriating and some don't want to play anymore because the early grind is too much.


    Good, less Minecraft players around

    In every game, offline or online, I had to work through it to get rewarded. Not given for free at the start

    Actually even Minecraft have the sad concept so.. Actually no game in existence so this. Creative modes aside
  • AshleyWB
    AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
    @Malakir Imagine playing mortal kombat and you had to have had 1 week of playtime to block any damage or to kick your opponent. That's what it is. Exactly like that.
  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    AshleyWB said:
    @Malakir Imagine playing mortal kombat and you had to have had 1 week of playtime to block any damage or to kick your opponent. That's what it is. Exactly like that.
    Its not, really bad example. You are asking to have a 20hit combo smashing one button instead of working on it to get rewards on online matches

    This example fit more
  • AshleyWB
    AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
    YOU GAVE THE NEW PLAYERS A FORK TO EAT THEIR SOUP WHEN THE OLDER PLAYERS HAVE SPOONS.
    Literally give them a spoon already.
  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    edited December 2018
    AshleyWB said:
    YOU GAVE THE NEW PLAYERS A FORK TO EAT THEIR SOUP WHEN THE OLDER PLAYERS HAVE SPOONS.
    Literally give them a spoon already.
    No you're asking something different since you can hhave the spoon if you want but no you want the spoon AND the fork

    Claudette is free at lvl 1 with that so yoi just want the spoon to be given to everyone regardless

    #spoonfedsurvivors
  • Visionmaker
    Visionmaker Member Posts: 2,051

    @powerbats said:
    For killers wanting Hex:Ruin or BBQ they have to go through same thing and survivors wanting SC/DS/SB/AD/DH/ whatever ever perk and insert killer equivalents here.

    Both sides have to grind for something they want not be given it for free other wise why play if everything is given to you for free?

    I think it's fair that for both sides, if something is near 100% usage, then the design needs to be looked at.

    For me, I believe that aspects of BBQC and Self Care should be default. Especially BBQC since it's ######### to lock must-have perks. It appears that they decided to go the route of nerfing them instead of making them default though.

  • Avariku
    Avariku Member Posts: 608
    sorry ashley, I'm usually a survivor favoring killer-main... but even I don't think this would be a good idea. 

    it's really not asking that much... if healing is such a crucial perk for them... they can play claudette.
  • Carpemortum
    Carpemortum Member Posts: 4,506
    I think no, because you're not supposed to feel safe. If you get hit and get away, you should be in fear. Hoping to find a medkit, teammate, or use a perk slot to ensure you dont have that issue. 
  • Carpemortum
    Carpemortum Member Posts: 4,506
    Visionmaker said:

    @powerbats said:
    For killers wanting Hex:Ruin or BBQ they have to go through same thing and survivors wanting SC/DS/SB/AD/DH/ whatever ever perk and insert killer equivalents here.

    Both sides have to grind for something they want not be given it for free other wise why play if everything is given to you for free?

    I think it's fair that for both sides, if something is near 100% usage, then the design needs to be looked at.

    For me, I believe that aspects of BBQC and Self Care should be default. Especially BBQC since it's ######### to lock must-have perks. It appears that they decided to go the route of nerfing them instead of making them default though.

    Why is bbq and chili a must have? Jw. Bp are nice but you still make more than survivors. And the aura isnt perfect. High rank survivors will avoid it, soon hide in lockers, etc. I think it's a nice, helpful perk, but not necessary. 
  • HellDescent
    HellDescent Member Posts: 4,883

    Survivors can have self care, if killers can get bbq bonus

  • Carpemortum
    Carpemortum Member Posts: 4,506
    edited December 2018
    HellDescent said:

    Survivors can have self care, if killers can get bbq bonus

    Self care negates the need to plan accordingly, not get caught, or rely on teammates. Bbq is a point boost that like 30% (in my experience) of the time leads to a real target.
  • yeet
    yeet Member Posts: 1,832

    you're basically asking to give survivors a fifth perkslot
    no

  • powerbats
    powerbats Member Posts: 7,068

    @yeet said:
    you're basically asking to give survivors a fifth perkslot
    no

    I don't usually agree with Yeet here but this is true and for killers it'd do the same and why stop there, someone else wants their perk for free. If you give something for free then there'll obviously be more asking for another free perk etc. (COUGH DECISIVE COUGH)

  • Visionmaker
    Visionmaker Member Posts: 2,051
    edited December 2018

    @Carpemortum said:
    Visionmaker said:

    @powerbats said:

    For killers wanting Hex:Ruin or BBQ they have to go through same thing and survivors wanting SC/DS/SB/AD/DH/ whatever ever perk and insert killer equivalents here.

    Both sides have to grind for something they want not be given it for free other wise why play if everything is given to you for free?

    I think it's fair that for both sides, if something is near 100% usage, then the design needs to be looked at.

    For me, I believe that aspects of BBQC and Self Care should be default. Especially BBQC since it's ######### to lock must-have perks. It appears that they decided to go the route of nerfing them instead of making them default though.

    Why is bbq and chili a must have? Jw. Bp are nice but you still make more than survivors. And the aura isnt perfect. High rank survivors will avoid it, soon hide in lockers, etc. I think it's a nice, helpful perk, but not necessary. 

    Simply because it's near 100% usage. If they took the stats of the games of those who own LF, I bet they'll find that they use BBQ near 100% or at same rate as SC. The aura reading isn't perfect, but the 2x BP is necessary for killer because many killers must use add-ons to be viable.

  • DocFabron
    DocFabron Member Posts: 2,410
    If this ever happened, it would have to be significantly nerfed or killers would need extreme buffs.
  • Carpemortum
    Carpemortum Member Posts: 4,506
    Visionmaker said:

    @Carpemortum said:
    Visionmaker said:

    @powerbats said:

    For killers wanting Hex:Ruin or BBQ they have to go through same thing and survivors wanting SC/DS/SB/AD/DH/ whatever ever perk and insert killer equivalents here.

    Both sides have to grind for something they want not be given it for free other wise why play if everything is given to you for free?

    I think it's fair that for both sides, if something is near 100% usage, then the design needs to be looked at.

    For me, I believe that aspects of BBQC and Self Care should be default. Especially BBQC since it's ######### to lock must-have perks. It appears that they decided to go the route of nerfing them instead of making them default though.

    Why is bbq and chili a must have? Jw. Bp are nice but you still make more than survivors. And the aura isnt perfect. High rank survivors will avoid it, soon hide in lockers, etc. I think it's a nice, helpful perk, but not necessary. 

    Simply because it's near 100% usage. If they took the stats of the games of those who own LF, I bet they'll find that they use BBQ near 100% or at same rate as SC. The aura reading isn't perfect, but the 2x BP is necessary for killer because many killers must use add-ons to be viable.

    I mean it's a bubba perk. Of course hed have it more than others. 2x bp isnt necessary with as much as you make anyway, and is the last thing that actually HELP killer gameplay....
  • ChesterTheMolester
    ChesterTheMolester Member Posts: 2,771
    AshleyWB said:
    With healing being such a widespread mechanic in the game. It is only fair that this mechanic can be done for all survivors across the board.
    The same can be said about Ruin and BBQ, in fact its easier to make that case since they have innate counters.

    AshleyWB said:
    You shouldn't be forced to play Claudette if you want to heal. Thats my point. You could bring a med kit but it's a whole lot easier for old players to heal than it is for new players.

    Thats literally the point of teachable perk.
    The medkit is yet another reason why this idea is bad too.

    AshleyWB said:

    I am listening Feng min avatar person but I don't see it as fair. Its a barrier to new players which is infuriating and some don't want to play anymore because the early grind is too much.


    Avatar and main is unimportant, you said yourself that survivors are skins.

    Also its not a huge barrier, self care is not that important, you still have access to medkits, chests, and heals by teammates. 
    You can also unlock Bond earlier than SC which many people run instead of self-care.
  • Wolf74
    Wolf74 Member Posts: 2,959

    @Visionmaker said:

    Simply because it's near 100% usage. If they took the stats of the games of those who own LF, I bet they'll find that they use BBQ near 100% or at same rate as SC. The aura reading isn't perfect, but the 2x BP is necessary for killer because many killers must use add-ons to be viable.

    Can you back that claim up with some facts?
    Last time the Devs showed stats about perk usage on stream NO OTHER perk was anywhere near the usage of Self Care.
    No not even Ruin and BBQ could get close to that level.
    Ruin and BBQ are closer to SB and DS.
    Self Care reigns supreme among all perks with 85% of all survivor using it (including all the low ranks that not yet have it unlocked).

    So asking for the most overused perk to become a default feature is pretty bold (biased).
    Especially since this perk is at least grindable. It is a teachable from an original survivor that you do not need to pay for.
    Ruin and BBQ are teachables from DLC and need to get bought and are even more hard to get than just SC.

  • Peanits
    Peanits Dev Posts: 7,555

    I don't really see the point. Self care is pretty overrated anyway. It's just as easy, if not faster, to find a teammate and have them heal you. It's definitely not a crucial part of the game. It's a QOL perk. You're not really any stronger with it than without in except for niche scenarios where every other survivor is occupied and unable to heal you (pretty rare). The rest of the time it just gives you the option between healing wherever you want and running a couple seconds and having a teammate heal you.

    If someone wants to use a perk slot for it, more power to them. But I don't really see the need to make it baseline. You certainly don't need it to do well.

  • thesuicidefox
    thesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,223

    LOL no. I don't even think it should be a perk to begin with. Healing should always require a medkit or another survivor.

  • Visionmaker
    Visionmaker Member Posts: 2,051
    edited December 2018

    @Wolf74 said:

    @Visionmaker said:

    Simply because it's near 100% usage. If they took the stats of the games of those who own LF, I bet they'll find that they use BBQ near 100% or at same rate as SC. The aura reading isn't perfect, but the 2x BP is necessary for killer because many killers must use add-ons to be viable.

    Can you back that claim up with some facts?
    Last time the Devs showed stats about perk usage on stream NO OTHER perk was anywhere near the usage of Self Care.
    No not even Ruin and BBQ could get close to that level.
    Ruin and BBQ are closer to SB and DS.
    Self Care reigns supreme among all perks with 85% of all survivor using it (including all the low ranks that not yet have it unlocked).

    So asking for the most overused perk to become a default feature is pretty bold (biased).
    Especially since this perk is at least grindable. It is a teachable from an original survivor that you do not need to pay for.
    Ruin and BBQ are teachables from DLC and need to get bought and are even more hard to get than just SC.

    Of course not. Do I look like a developer? Hence why I said "I bet." Also, read:

    Visionmaker said:

    If they took the stats of the games of those who own LF

    I'm also asking the most coveted, paylocked KILLER perk to be free and default, by the way. And I say this as a person who regularly purchases killer & survivor DLCs, so you can buzz off with your victim maining bullshit.

  • Wolf74
    Wolf74 Member Posts: 2,959

    @Visionmaker said:
    , so you can buzz off with your victim maining bullshit.

    Some insults always spice up a good argument.

    Oh wait... you had none, but you had insults… so you must be right by default.

    Thanks for the nice conversation. Over and out.

  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    EntityDispleased said:
    What happened to looking for a box hoping for a med kit? 
    You have to hold a button, its tedious (quote)
  • AshleyWB
    AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
    Well I disagree with a lot of you apparently. It's obvious that a rank 1 can have an easier time healing than a rank 20 yet some of you will still try and tell me otherwise.

    As for new players coming in the grind is real and access to a good set of perks is important. 

    I only suggested this because it would make new players feel more equipped going into matches but I honestly see that some of you don't care about newbies having fun. Plus the amount of toxicity and insults being thrown around is just beyond childish. This is a discussion not an argument.


  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675
    edited December 2018

    Sure, as long as it's also gutted. One heal per trial. A base mechanic that allows for unlimited, self-sustaining, full heals is absurd.

  • AshleyWB
    AshleyWB Member Posts: 4,061
    I think it was a bad idea to make self care a Claudette only perk in the beginning. I think it should at least be one of those you can get on any survivor. Not survivor specific.

    I was just making a point, I don't necessarily agree with my op but its a valid argument which is kinda ignored and dismissed because older players think giving new players a hard time is good for the game.
  • powerbats
    powerbats Member Posts: 7,068

    @AshleyWB said:
    I think it was a bad idea to make self care a Claudette only perk in the beginning. I think it should at least be one of those you can get on any survivor. Not survivor specific.

    I was just making a point, I don't necessarily agree with my op but its a valid argument which is kinda ignored and dismissed because older players think giving new players a hard time is good for the game.

    Well if it was say a Bill perk you'd be saying the same thing about it being a Bill only perk then and you can get it on any survivor with the teachable unlocked.

    It's not that we think giving newer players a hard time at all, it's that we think of it in a reasonable sense that it shouldn't be free.The only perks that should be free are those unique to each character and then to get them on others you learn the teachable and ten get it from your bloodweb.

  • Mindglow
    Mindglow Member Posts: 11
    I mean, it's like playing a Warrior in WoW and complaining that you can't use a Priest's Flash Heal. If you wanted to heal, you would play a class that can heal. In this case that would be Claudette. No one ever complained they were forced to play a Priest or Druid in order to heal. This is the problem with teachable perks - they make the game homogenic. 
  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    AshleyWB said:
    I think it was a bad idea to make self care a Claudette only perk in the beginning. I think it should at least be one of those you can get on any survivor. Not survivor specific.

    I was just making a point, I don't necessarily agree with my op but its a valid argument which is kinda ignored and dismissed because older players think giving new players a hard time is good for the game.
    After tons of examples and reasons why this is a bad idea, you keep thinking this ain't true

    Your is a feel vs real argument. "I feel this is unfair" still Claudette an medkits exist " I feel people around lazy to learn the game and spend time on it to get to the point they get self care as teachable"

    I made some many examples I've lost track of em and others did their best to explain it why. Darn, almost every survival game you need a med kit or you're screwed and cant heal by yourself. Here you even have the option to do so

    I know logic and facts aren't enough for you but thats all we have
  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675

    @Malakir said:
    After tons of examples and reasons why this is a bad idea, you keep thinking this ain't true

    Your is a feel vs real argument. "I feel this is unfair" still Claudette an medkits exist " I feel people around lazy to learn the game and spend time on it to get to the point they get self care as teachable"

    I made some many examples I've lost track of em and others did their best to explain it why. Darn, almost every survival game you need a med kit or you're screwed and cant heal by yourself. Here you even have the option to do so

    I know logic and facts aren't enough for you but thats all we have

    This is the same person who said that the Killer clues we got fit a Wendigo, even though one of the clues was the bona fide name of the Killer and another one was the image of the Killer, and then said that just because they were wrong doesn't mean they weren't right.

  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    Orion said:

    @Malakir said:
    After tons of examples and reasons why this is a bad idea, you keep thinking this ain't true

    Your is a feel vs real argument. "I feel this is unfair" still Claudette an medkits exist " I feel people around lazy to learn the game and spend time on it to get to the point they get self care as teachable"

    I made some many examples I've lost track of em and others did their best to explain it why. Darn, almost every survival game you need a med kit or you're screwed and cant heal by yourself. Here you even have the option to do so

    I know logic and facts aren't enough for you but thats all we have

    This is the same person who said that the Killer clues we got fit a Wendigo, even though one of the clues was the bona fide name of the Killer and another one was the image of the Killer, and then said that just because they were wrong doesn't mean they weren't right.

    Sorry, I got mind blown by the last sentence. Had to read it 3 times, my mind couldn't accept something that dumb
  • Orion
    Orion Member Posts: 21,675

    @Malakir said:
    Sorry, I got mind blown by the last sentence. Had to read it 3 times, my mind couldn't accept something that dumb

    Their argument, IIRC, was that because all the clues fit a Wendigo (they didn't, as was pointed out to them over the course of several pages), they were right to suspect a Wendigo (they weren't, since none of the clues fit).

  • Malakir
    Malakir Member Posts: 799
    Orion said:

    @Malakir said:
    Sorry, I got mind blown by the last sentence. Had to read it 3 times, my mind couldn't accept something that dumb

    Their argument, IIRC, was that because all the clues fit a Wendigo (they didn't, as was pointed out to them over the course of several pages), they were right to suspect a Wendigo (they weren't, since none of the clues fit).

    I mean, would've been cool.. I haven't looked up for clues etc just waited the teaser out of lazy ness but if you say so I can imagine. You're one of the few I can actually trust on the forum so

    BTW lets not go too off topic even if this I more interesting than the actual one. There's not much to say about It and try to convince a stubborn newbie its pointless