Truetalent vs Oracle team, what do you think?
Comments
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Granted I watched only the game in the video of the OP. I don't disagree with the statement that Wraith isn't viable against the best teams in the world.
However, what I notice is that there's a disconnect between the purpose of the test and the actual test conditions. If we want to determine what happens when both parties bring their A game, then you need to actually show up with your A game. This wasn't a test to see if Wraith is viable against the best survivors who are tryharding. This example was a test to see if Wraith is viable against the best survivors when using subpar add-ons for killers, employing a strategy (hit'n'running with Nurse's) which is known to be a soloQ stomper and that falls apart otherwise, while reading chat on top of that.
Again, I don't expect the result would've been much different with better test conditions, but those weren't it.
Also, I understand killers having different degrees of strength. It's literally impossible to make the entire roster exactly the same level of power. Just like it's impossible to make every survivor team the same strength, even if stuff like comms and mmr were added. They might help, but the problem remains.
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That last sentence, that's what I think a lot of people don't understand. In what universe could Wailing Bell or Evil Within have the same power as Spencers last breath? Without completely destroying the power design and thematic design of the killer? W
What, would Micheal just teleport a survivor to the hook if he stalks them long enough?
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The best players still place consistently. A win in dbd is subjective, but MMR showed us that at high level, equally skilled survivors vs killers will favor survivors every time. Something can be done to help balance it, even if it’s not a redesign.
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So you are basically asking for a 4K before any gens have been repaired? You might get games with efficient survivors. It is what it is. Tunneling and camping is a known toxic strategy people use to ruin others experience. If it is miserable then don’t do it.
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I mean, nothing new. It is known that those tournament squads can only be beaten by a really good Spirit or Nurse. So its not something groundbreaking.
DBD will never be balanced around those teams and it should never be balanced around those teams. You cannot balance for Top 1%-Players and ignore 99% of the playerbase. If we start to balance around Top Level-Survivors and Top-Killer players, most of the people in this game will have a miserable experience.
And it is a casual game, after all. Umbra once talked about it in her Stream and she is surely one of the best Killers in this game. And she also was not really into the idea to balance around the Top Level (apparently the same was done with Deathgarden, which lead to the game dying, but I cannot confirm it myself since I did not play it).
However, quite "interesting" that tru3 did such an experiment, but he did not do the 1v1s, because the game is a 1v4. While playing against Oracle is a 1v4, it is as far away from Public Matches as 1v1s against Spirit is. And tru3 did not want to test something here, he did not want to test if Wraith can compete against those teams - tru3 is not stupid at all, he knew from the start it will not be possible.
But I think he wants to give his opinion with that, but dont want to show that Spirit is indeed problematic, which is the reason he refuses to do 1v1s.
Overall, the experiment is mildly interesting. It does not show anything new and it certainly should not be a factor to take into consideration when balancing this game.
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Nobody wants a 4k at 5 Gens. But the game design as it is currently favors survivors who tunnel gens.
Which is toxic according to your logic. Game would be much more interesting if survivors would leave a gen at 50% and go for another one. /s
Tunneling isn't an issue tbh. I rarely see Killers ignoring everything else, even easier targets, to hunt a specific survivor. But thats my definition of tunneling. Some others might even call it tunneling if you get hookfarmed or bodyblock with BT. Both cases are survivors fault.
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Why do you assume that i do it? What i´m talking about is my experience as solo survivor on red ranks.
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Not necessarily. Camping and Tunneling wasn´t an issue during the short time Undying Ruin was meta. Survivors complained more about having to do totems then getting tunneled or camped.
When killers don´t feel pressured by the gen speed, then they are more likely to go for a 12 hook game.
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Not really. Killers tunnel and camp all the time if they get the opportunity. Some do it with 5 Gens and their Totem(s) still up.
Blaming the Undying-Nerf for that is a weak argument (if I even want to call it that way, "a lie" would be more suitable).
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Look for yourself. Search the forum for camping and tunneling threads. Those spiked after the Undying Nerf.
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Still m8, it shows how good you can get, how good survivors can get, and as you see, nearly unkillable team, that my firend, is not balanced.
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You can’t tunnel gens. And almost every game someone is getting camped tunneled, it wasn’t that much of a problem but since the ds nerf it has increased very much. Killers need to get banned for stuff like this.
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It just shows survivor mains who complain about how killer sided this game is are just slacking and are to lazy to put the effort to get better ammirigh?? Huh?
.... Jimmy..... Jimmy put down that pitchfork.... Jimmy its just a joke JIMMY!!!
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Why is there even an argument on balancing the game around top level play vs casual play? Isn't it painfully obvious that most competitive game balance around top level play? Be it asymmetric or not. Its silly to think otherwise. And yes, DBD is a competitive game. There are ranks to climb and MMR is coming soon.
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Fully agreed, unfortunately there are too many people in this thread who simply cannot understand that balancing for teams like Oracle would kill this game. I've played against comp teams as Billy, it's stressful, but it's also a world away from the everyday casual SWF which you'll encounter in public games. You have to go looking for teams who are capable of outputting tournament level efficiency and even then, a lot of killers are still capable of 4k'ing in that environment.
That being said, I would genuinely love to see some of the gameplay from people complaining about losing 3 generators in the first chase. The amount of times I've seen that happen can be counted on one hand and more often than not is down to ridiculously bad RNG (we know spawns are problematic), toolbox/BNP rushing or them overcommitting to bad chases. The last two prominent people I saw complaining about SWF's were quite bluntly, horrendous in their decision making and with very suboptimal builds.
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Are you saying that killers have a hard time against solo survivors?
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At least at red and purple ranks.
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Well you are probably playing against the worst killer if they have a hard time against 4 solos.
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I don´t know if the others are solo, as the game won´t show me. So i can only speak for myself.
I could upload tons of screenshots where there is only 1 gen left/gates are powered and the killer had 4 hooks.
With the survivor hook counter its easier than ever to proof how many hooks the killer got.
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Well that is your experience. Many killers rank up too easily so it doesn’t mean that killers need to be buffed. The game is still too killer sided
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Ranking up as killer is harder than ranking up as survivor. For example, the aimed balancing goal of 2 kills 2 escapes is a guaranteed black pip for killers on red ranks. Hell, the killer could even get a 4k and black pip on red ranks. Because the system isn´t designed for different killer powers.
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I don't know a single content creator sans tru3 that actually wants this game balanced around the top level. Most of them seem well aware it would be an awful idea. Same with the mmr
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That is true, but I do think the horrible matchmaking plays a big role in this. I have been matched up against yellow ranked killers while being rank 1 survivor and vice versa. So obviously if a average killer gets matched against rank 20 survivors they will 4K and pip.
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As i said, it could be a black pip. Because the killer could kill to fast, not get enough chases, not enough hits (insta downs penalize the killer, picking someone up from a trap doesn´t count as hits, downing infected survivors as Plague doesn´t give full points, etc.)
The rainbow ranks also explain the high kill rates, btw. As the stats only take the killers rank into account.
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No killer should have any more than 60% kill rate. Even if it is against rank 20s or rank 1s.
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The outcome of the match was predetermined and very obvious. For experienced players, there was not even a shroud of doubt that tru3 would not get destroyed. Personally, I do not think that killers need to be able to beat top 1% because realistically, they are very unlikely to play against survivors in solo queue where they need that level power.
I am not sure how to put this into words, but killers need capacity to influence the game based off the power they've been given without having mechanics that purposely drain skill-level of that character or add complications that make the power impossible use/very ineffective.
Solo-queue balance should be that character just plays to the best of its ability. Billy should be able to curve good survivors. Ghostface should be 99% stalk good survivors naturally, Freddy should be able to use snares and slowdown the game. clown's yellow and purple bottles should be effective tools to end chases quickly vs decent survivors. none these strategy are good enough for good teams but at least the killer plays properly and has some impact on outcome of the match.
Its why changes like... recent demogorgon changes are.... just massive disconnection of the game in my opinion.
killers don't need be nurse/spirit-level, they just need not suck and feel bad to play for solo-queue level.
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But what do you do when killers get matched against rank 20s that don´t know how to hit a skill check? There was a killer shortage before the RE chapter released. Even the devs admitted it on stream. Killers got tossed into a lobby with the survivors that have been waiting the longest. Didn´t matter what rank they were.
The Challenges also don´t help with the kill rates. As people play different to get their challenges done. Just watch how everyone hook bombs when a new chapter with altruistic challenges releases. Or where survivors need to stay in close proximity to the killer without getting chased.
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The problem here is oracle are a top tier competetive team. They are not the best in the world but they are extremely good. Tru3ta1ent is good in pubs but not in comp, his build and the way he played showed that.
Put a top tier comp wraith against them and there will be more hooks
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Well, to be fair besides obvious balance issues Oracle players are at least 1 whole tier above truetalent skill-wise, which doesn't make it any easier for him.
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Dowsey played wraith, he didn't have a better result. It doesn't matter who plays, wraith just can't win. his gameplay is just too slow and ineffective. If otz played wraith, the outcome would also be the same. its why 50 kill streaks is very misleading information.
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I understand what you are saying but dowsey and otz are not top tier comp killers. Put someone like Hunter from EMA in there and the results would be much better.
I'm not disagreeing with the fact wraith is a much weaker killer than nurse/spirit, anyone who does is stupid but if you go against high level comp players in any game and you don't play at a comp level yourself you are usually going to lose no matter what.
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You didn't watch these videos clearly. They had rule that they aren't allowed to cleanse ruin and Tru3 still got stomped lmao
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People tend to forget about all those matches where they destroy survivors, but highlight that ONE strong SWF team to claim that the game is survivor sided.
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Imagine League of Legends balanced around bronze players.
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I don't understand this mentality that strong players shouldn't be the point that a game is balanced around. Pro players are a very small portion of many PvP, and yet those games still usually try to balance around that very small portion of players. DBD is exempt from this because...what? Asymmetrical? More than 2 players?
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Dead by daylight is 1v4 so i don't see what 1v1 is supposed to prove anyways. Once you are found as a survivor you are supposed to be at heavy disadvantage when it comes to chase mechanic. If survivors could go toe to toe with killer the balance is clearly quacked as we see here.
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The 1v1 should not be ignored tho.
But, other than that, going against Oracle also does not have any value either. You wont encounter those teams in Public Matches.
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What makes it an awful idea? How does asymmetrical gameplay turn what is a good idea for most PvP games into a bad idea? It actively makes no sense to me and seems like an extremely arbitrary distinction.
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Well, it proves what the Depip Squad had already proved. At the highest level of play, Survivors are stronger.
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A few things:
1. This was Tru3's first game against a competitive team in that environment. It is very, very rare for a killer to come in and do well in their first game. It's different and takes time to get used to the game speed.
2. You can not play M1 killers against decent competitive teams without Forced Penance. You will not down anyone due to constant bodyblocks and resets.
3. Tru3's lack of basic killer fundamentals showed up big time. He has no idea how to zone before pallet breaks and constantly gave away the inside of the map on Coal Tower.
4. Oracle is arguably the best team in the world. They are in no way indicative of an average SWF or even a good pub SWF. They are incredible by competitive standards. Tru3 could probably 1k a solid comp team half the time if he altered his playstyle. That's still not good, but like I said, he you have to be 100% solid on M1 killers to have a slight chance in that environment.
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Truetalent is a mediocre killer and you don’t face swf like this every single round. Also sometimes people are just better than you. Please don’t have this mob mentality.
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I agree with you. But the thing that bothers me is that a lot survivor mains want those few killers nerfed that CAN challenge these hardcore teams. When we look at tournaments even nurses and spirits struggle against teams like that. I think killers should have few very high skillcap killers that you rarely see in lower level games. Most of the time rank 15-20s survivors complain abaut wraiths while more skilled survivors abaut nurses, spirits, etc
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And how many years have passed since their experiment?
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It doesn't really matter how long time passes as most survivors discredited the experiment for x reasons. If every argument fails they can just say that "you rarely go against these teams anyways"
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Just use the same argument back at them when they whine about spirit or nurse; you rarely go against top level spirit/nurse anyway
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Quite a long time , actually. Was it 2017 or 2018?
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that's a professional team, while in daily games with randoms your teammates commit suicide at the first hook or disconnect when they fall first ... nor do I tell you that they literally last 1 second in chases and they don't even touch generators
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What I don’t understand is why he kept trying to make wraith work by changing his addons/perks. Did he expect to magically get a 4k just by changing a few perks? Everyone in chat and even Oracle were asking him to change his killer because it wasn’t working out. What did Tru do? He ignored it and continued like a stubborn mule. This is why Tru is the only dbd streamer I dislike. I really wanted to see how a spirit/nurse would perform against Oracle.
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Its disheartening to see how easy those things are dismissed. Even now. Just a couple a months ago, we had a streamer post a video of a 2 1/2 minute gen rush. Was dismissed, because "not everyone plays like that".
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You are jumping to conclusion due to your dislike for him. The purpose of his match against oracle is for him to test if wraith can work vs competitive team.
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