Truetalent vs Oracle team, what do you think?
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And see, for me Killer is chill and survivor is more stressful. But that's because I play Killer to just have fun, run around, get into some chases, maybe hook some folks, kick some gens and break some pallets/walls, and earn bloodpoints.
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Well, you are admitting that you are playing one side chill without much worry as to the result. Which side becomes more stressful if the goal is to win?
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Why is this video even on here?
I think killers just enjoy pretending they play against teams like this so we buff literally every killer into the heavens so they absolutely stomp every average player and team they go against which let's be honest is 99% of the matches.
I thought killers want this game to be solo only but want to buff killers as if everyone is a sweat squad, it's so boring, stop trying to ruin the solo / average team experience to buff the game towards the 1% which 99% of this forum isn't even at the level of or playin against, ridiculous.
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I just went and watched it. His perk and add on choice is interesting and not what I would have done as a wraith. That said, the way he was coming out of cloak i think is what screwed him. After a couple times of that not working he needed to try something else.
As far as gameplay, it was a team playing ultra safe by dropping pallets early and staying split on gens. I dont know why they are considered the best in the world, I see this exact game a few times a day in pub. Ive seen bully squads that are more interesting and theres nothing here 4 people without comms that are good at the game couldnt do.
He planned around stopping gens, that was never going to happen. Ci + stbfl + noed + starstruck. Commit to a chase early, yes because theyre good that will take awhile, but get someone down, camp the basement. If they get altruistic youve got a good chance, if not hopefully ci gave you a three gen and from there its a game of attrition. If they get the gens done noed might get you one or 2 more.
I also wouldnt have brought wraith going into a game like this knowingly
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This is the issue a lot of killers have, including myself sometimes, you cant play the survivors game, you need to force them to play yours. That applies to loops to
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All they did was split gens and drop the pallet early. I see this all the time in pub and i dont think it rewuires communication to do
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its wraith, not gonna preform well obviously, yes it does outline some issues that swf has but even so he is a weak killer
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I mean I can live with making spirit the official comp killer and restricting her to kyf accordingly
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Because it would be similar to balancing a SP game around speedrunners who have invested 1000's of hours learning all the ins and outs of a game. Which is an investment that the majority of players are simply NOT going to do. Besides, this game really does need better matchmaking before any kind of serious balancing is done, IMO. True is a decent Killer, but he's not the best. So, him getting obliterated by a high skilled, tournament level team isn't exactly a huge shock.
There's also a high level of RNG in this game. Put that same team on a map with anemic pallet spawns and dead zones and the outcome might have been different.
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Survivor isn't stressful to me because I'm trying to "win" - it's stressful because more often than not, that's where I run into toxic behavior. Like when I play Killer, I don't care about the "win" condition - escaping. All I want is to have fun in the match, repair some gens, maybe cleanse a totem or two, get into some good chases, and earn bloodpoints. I don't care if I get hooked and sacrificed, as long as those prior conditions are met.
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Single player games are an entirely different beast altogther because you're not playing against other people; only the game itself. THAT to me is no longer an arbitrary distinction.
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Simply by all logic not true. The game simply would shift a little bit in terms of matchmaking. Yes it might be tough for survivors in the beginning, but at the end of the day the matchmaking will settle in a way, where you no longer will feel any difference from before. Of course i am making this argument with MMR in mind, but even without it would simply mean that rank1 actually means something.
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I'm not say they're exact. But the sentiment remains the same. How many survs in this game are going to reach Oracle level skills? Not very many. How many are going to not only reach that level of skill, but also have a highly coordinated group to play with? Even less. By that same token, should all Killers be balanced around the potential of Spirit & Nurse? Around the absolute best of the best Killer players? I hear a lot about how the game should be balanced around the absolute best SWF survs, and nearly nothing about Killer side. Facing an extremely good Killer is a bloodbath for average survs.
Should either roll be balanced around maps like Lery's? Should they be balanced around the worst RNG maps for surv or Killer? The best?
Let's see the flip side of a highly skilled Wraith against a decent but not the best SWF. How different is that outcome. Trying to base balance off a select few instances is not the way to go.
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I don't think the two are actually comparable in this case because you CAN balance the game around speedrunners AND casual players in a single player game. That's what difficulty settings are for, no?
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Why would you need change the game from ground up? you only need fix the major problems seen in the match.
The two major issues in those 5 matches. one issue was bodyblocking and the other issue is safe pallet design/god pallet design. To understand issue behind bodyblocking, you have to understand the basic problem behind health-states for killers, when a killer hits a survivor, they suffer 3 second cooldown and survivor gains 2 second sprint burst, it just gives a lot distance which makes hitting survivors highly detrimental for M1 killers and if your able to heal faster than a killer can damage survivors, it becomes highly problematic. Its basic problem of holding W from survivors being too strong. Its why the top-tier killers resolve this problem by having high speed catch-up mechanics(Blight,Nurse,Spirit).
The only way killers resolve this problem is by having an instant down or by having very short attack animation recovery(like huntress). The only universal killer perk that reduces basic attack recovery is the perk STBFL, unfortunately its not very good solution as not every killer can get high stacks of this perk and keep it. so solving this problem is rather difficult.
The other problem is how almost every pallet that tru3 was facing was safe pallet that needed to broken. Even with fast pallet breaking speed, it didn't allow him to get hits because loops are closely tied together and none of pallets could be played because they're simply too long and many of them are completely safe such as jungle gym, shack, so forth. Top-tier killers resolve this bad game design by playing Nurse,Spirit and Blight because their power gives them gameplay at loops.... unlike your "Spirit has no counter-play argument".
Abusing health states to hold W gameplay and dropping safe pallets doesn't take top-level SWF to abuse and yet that is all you need to defeat 95% of the killer cast like wraith.
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I really don't think Tru is a top killer, to be honest. He makes a lot of mistakes. On top of playing Wraith. And he's playing against a group that represents less that .00001% of the player base. And I guarantee the best Nurse, Spirit, Blight, Billy and Hag can beat that team, which in all honesty, that team shouldn't be beat by any Killer.
Honestly, Dowsey playing the Twins could probably decimate that team. That guy is an amazing Killer player.
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Because what is being discussed about the spirit is her basic kit of abilities, what you said is completely irrelevant.
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Your last sentence there hits the nail on the head. Everyone is acting like this team is amazing, literally all they did was drop the pallet early and split on gens. 4 decent survivors without comms could have done that 😂
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Because DBD isn't designed like "most" PvP games. In many PvP games, each side has the same goal. Both strive to win, and each side usually has equal access to resources to help them win, with the same set of options. Which makes it easier to balance around fairness. But DBD is asymmetrical. Asymmetrical games have different roles with different goals, and only a few similarities between them. Each side shares basic abilities, but their abilities and tools to work with are very different. You have to think about what you have, what your opponent has, and your opponent's mindset. There's more coming into play than just "I'm better at this one thing than you are", simply because of how many different variables there are in play.
In Asymmetric games, one side will always inherently be stronger than the other, simply by design. And at the top level of DBD, survivors dominate every game against every killer except for Nurse and Spirit. You can't balance around the top% in DBD because if you did, you'd have to make drastic changes to both sides that would completely change the game, which is not going to happen. If you for example made generators take longer, sure weaker killers would have a better shot, but the game would just be even easier for the killers who were already really strong. No matter what you do with a change like that, you'll always be screwing over one side. So the only way to balance around the top% would be to bring the weaker killers up to the level of the strong killers, where every killer has a chance to win regardless of how strong the survivors are, as long as the killer plays well. But that's not what the devs are doing, and not how they plan on balancing the game.
So overall, the reason this game shouldn't be balanced around the top%, is because this game isn't designed around the top%. There are lots of different killers in this game that can do well in a casual setting, but none of them stand a chance in the top%. If the only 2 killers in this game were nurse and spirit, and the survivors were the ones being given new powers every chapter, then maybe it would work. But that's not how it works.
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I would like to see how dowsey does against them
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Also simply not true. This game can be balanced for that in a year. The lack of creativity of some people does not mean that you have to rework the game as a whole. Its only the people not willing to experiment the developers lack of transperency when it comes to statitistics and survivors making up the majority of this game that keeps this game from becoming balanced. Of course we would need a proper MMR system and give survivors some incentives to accept the bigger challenge that would come. Refusing to try to optimize just because people are so locked in into their beliefs does not make any sense. There is no way to proof the game would need a TOTAL rework when we do not try, thus saying this without trying is illogical.
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Do you know why he played wraith against oracle? To see how wraith will do against the best survivors. Watch the vod please it was painful reading this
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I think someone earlier in the thread said he tried and got 2 hooks. Considering EMA rolled him on his twins (albeit they knew beforehand), I'd expect Oracle to do the same.
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You cannot play like this in Public Games. The best strategy (also against Spirit) is to just waste every Pallet while your team is doing Gens. Like in ScottJunds Video against a Comp-Player, said player dropped a Pallet every 11 seconds on average. No looping at all.
Yes, you can counter Killers like this. However, this only works if your team is doing Generators. And this is the problem in public games, not everyone is super-efficient all the time, if you waste Pallets like this in public games, you end up with all Pallets gone after 3 minutes and like 2 Gens being done. And for the rest of the game, everyone is ######### because there are no Pallets left.
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you'd be surprised. you can just press that ready button for killer to find out how many teams fail to do the most basic looping. instead you'll get the response that your just "wasting pallets" even though this team on one of their games literally just drops shack pallet 20 seconds into a match.
The other funny remark is the idea that only swf could "achieve" this amazing level of synergy and that solo has no chance at this. you'd be surprised that if you gave solo the global version of bond, I bet some solos could easily achieve similar level of this coordination but this just talks about the solo information vs SWF balance problems. health state bodyblocking is not new concept, it used to be more popular when every survivor ran self-care and back than, healing used to take 12 seconds. self-care took 24 seconds.
none of these issues are new. they have always been in the game. they just were not formally discussed.
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Nope. Speedrunners, in general, already try for their best times on the hardest difficulty the game has to offer and their success is largely based in massive amounts of practice. Like, the levels of practice that the majority of people are just not going to do, which is my fundamental point. Most survs and killers just aren't ever going to achieve that level of gameplay and probably don't want to. And as the game continues to expand in perks and maps, it's only going to get harder for new/newer players to get there. Does it suck when you run into a group/Killer who has that level of skill? Yes. The matches tend to be short and disheartening for both groups.
The new map (if we ever get it back) isn't going to be as big of a deal to learn for players who already know all the other maps. A new player would have to learn all of them. Not to mention the perks. Perk combinations. Powers. Add ons. Etc.
Every online game I've ever played that wants to have a balanced, "serious" competitive aspect usually adds a separate mode specifically largely because of the disparity of skill that is naturally going to exist between players who dedicate a lot of time AND invest learning all the game's ins and outs and those who aren't.
Solo Q and lower rank matches, in my experience, tend to be more Killer sided than surv. Most matches end in a 3-4K and some of them are painfully short. What happens when the game is balanced around the best of the best survs? I'd be willing to bet that the kill rates would go through the roof.
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I was talking about good/decent players. Good players are always on gens/totems if they arent being chased.
If were talking about players that arent good or decent, sure, but then the killer probably isnt great either. If were having a balance discussion this highlights why trying to balance around bad players is an awful idea. You could give the survivirs 50 safe pallets and drop them all early, if nobody is doing gens it wont matter.
None of this would matter if it werent for rank based matchmaking/mmr. The game you just saw by the "greatest team in the world" i see daily at r1, and i see it so often because it doesnt require coms to do. If you have a game that isnt balanced around good players, but then force the good players to play eachother, OF COURSE people are going to get mad.
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Why are we always using the top 0.0001% of players as a basis for opinions though?
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I think you meant to reply to someone else. Nothing you said contradicts what I said and actively agrees with my point. Which makes the "youd be suprised" bit confusing
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Sorry to say that, but if you think that you go against teams like Oracle at a regular basis, you are either lying or not as good as you think you are and are already struggling against the usual Red Ranks.
Most players in this game are not good. This includes both Killers and Survivors. So you cannot really go for good or decent Survivors, when most players are neither good nor decent.
And well, good players are not on Totems when being chased. Totems are a waste of Time, only Gens matter, those are the Objective.
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Because it proofs, that a game is ALWAYS in the hands of the survivors to loose. There are so many cries for nerfs because that or this has no counterplay but this basically proofs, that survivor as a whole have no counterplay. A game designed to be this one sided is inherently flawed. It is not only the top % that are like this. If both sides have equal skill, survivors will always win.
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Because survivors want the game to be even easier for them.
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I do think it has a value. Ofc you barely encounter these kind of groups, but same goes for these kind of killer players. It all waters down from the highest skill level. You can clearly see just by watching different streamers how they dominate at high ranks. Doesnt matter if they play surv or killer. So I dont understand how the videos dont have any meaning for figuring out the problems at high levels of the game.
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Okay, but the power balance varies drastically based on skill. At low ranks, killers have a massive advantage over survivors, at higher ranks, the gap is reduced, but killers can succeed with any killer and at competitive level survivors will have the power to beat all but Nurse/Spirit. You can’t use competitive as a benchmark, even other competitive players have said there is no counter to spirit in regular games.
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I think most of the people dont understand that you can balance a game for high levels without destroying low levels
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Im talking about the strategy we witnessed in that particular video. Split gens, play safe by dropping pallet early. Yes, you witness this all the time in reds. Its not hard to do nor does it require comms. There was nothing in that video that stuck out as highlighting any sort of skill involved. Even the bt unhook and body blocks at the end. I play solo at reds and do it to killers all the time without comms.
Im r1 on both sides, its rare i have a really bad teammate honestly. As a killer i see it when the game throws me low reds and purples, throughout an 8 hour session it will be about 25% of what you saw in that video, 50% balanced matches that are close (win or lose) and 25% me pub stomping the crap out of the survivors (these are rough figures obviously). That intial 25% though is where you see this strat used. Im told 4 man swfs are super rare so they must be mostly solos right?
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Except that the game is balanced around skilled killers…. Nurse was nerfed hard, as was Pyramid. The burden of being skillful and perfect is all on the killer. Survivor gets things catered to them.
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he played wraith, twins and spirit after tru3 stream. he lost all his games. I think he had 1 game where he got 6 hooks and 1 kill and rest were all survivor-sided smashes. Its just more proof that when survivor get to certain-level. its almost unwinnable no matter who plays or what killer it is.
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The same team that beat tru3 yesterday said, that Spirit has counterplay. You can also tell when she is phasing, but not many people know that. I agree that killer might have the advantage in the first few hours of learning this game. Once you achieved the skill of looping somewhat well this shifts drastically in the favor of survivors. So while you are right with the balance shifting based on skill, the skill floor needed to favor survivors is so low, that i just cannot let this pass as an argument to not use top % as a benchmark. Only when both sides play close to optimal you can see how this game is balanced when it comes to both sides having equal skill. The introdcution of MMR makes this discussion even more necessary.
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No it's not. You are comparing the absolute best profession team that has fully optimized perks, comms and thousands of hours of experience that is going against a Wraith and saying this represents the current player base. This is like saying every human on earth should be as smart of Stephen Hawkings. This team is an anomaly. Even the Developers data shows that Killers have a 60% kill rate. So it's really the Killers game to lose, not the survivors game to lose.
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You should go check out Dowsey's stream from yesterday, not only did he commentate the matches, he went against Oracle for a few matches after Tru's. He had about the same results.
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Nice ill check that out. Thanks
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Your argument is inherently flawed. When optimal play shows that survivors can only loose by doing mistakes of their own, that means that its on the survivors if they loose or not. No matter how you see it. In order to win the killer has to capitalize on mistakes. Killrates mean nothing without context, nurse has the lowest killrate in the game. The stephen hawking anology is also somewhat wonky.
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You do realize that the exact same thing can be said for people who want game play 'balanced' around the absolute best survivors, right? "Killers only want easy, thoughtless 4Ks every match and want the game catered to them because some day they might face the best of the best and not win."
I don't think it's exactly beneficial to go through the 'who got what nerfs game' except to say that no, it's not only killers getting nerfs by any stretch of the imagination.
Nurse was nerfed hard but it is still one of the supposed 2 Killers that can take on a highly skilled comp team? Wouldn't that mean she was near unbeatable before?
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Those stats are the only stats we have. We have no other stats to go off of except from the Developers. You can say you feel this way or that way, but that means absolutely nothing. And why are these stats flawed? The Developers work on this game as a job. They would be the only people I would trust. Saying you can't use their stats makes no sense, unless you have proof those stats are flawed, which no one has. We don't even know how they get the stats, they probably have formulas to calculate out all the flaws can think off, because it's literally how the developers make a living.
Saying that a single game out of millions of games, with the best professional team in DBD against an above-average streamer using an average killer shows the game is survivor sided makes no sense. You have to take the average game play against different levels of play to determine who has the upper hand, and you don't have that data.
The developers stats are the best source of information the player base has, hands down.
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If you're talking about the animation reset on Spirit, that's inconsistent.
If a reset happens, she's indeed phasing.
HOWEVER (big however), she can phase without a reset happening.
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That’s what everyone is asking for. Buffing solos to SWF level, and balance the game around it.
But no. Devs won’t do this because it’s basically remake the game. So we’re stuck.
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To me, arguing from competitive DBD to say survivors arent balanced, is like arguing that McDonalds isnt vegan enough. McDonalds will always sell more non-vegan options.
Competitive DBD needs to be balanced more around rules made for the competition, rather than relying on the devs, since the game is not competitive. You dont have the same objectives.
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Because nurse having the lowest killrate, but beeing the best killer means that these stats have to be fed with more context in order to be valuable. I am NOT saying stats are useless. I am a big fan of stats as this is also what i do professionally. But i also know that the right context of stats is inherently important. And again: if optimal play shows, that survivors have to do mistakes so the killer can win then this means that survivors in general NO MATTER the skill have to do mistakes so killers can win. It is what it logically means. You do not need any more data than this, when it comes to determine who has the upper hand. When it comes to balancing its another discussion, where many different sides have valid points. But the question of who is the power role of this game has been answered. In order to balance properly people have to realize that first and when i look in this forum, not many people seem to have realized that yet.
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The reason she was nerfed before is the same reason people still want her nerfed: she plays differently and people don’t want to learn. There was no reason for her to get a recharge mechanic.
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