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Truetalent vs Oracle team, what do you think?
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I'll get one ready tonight or tomorrow for you. I just have to remember your name lol.
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Right and if DBD was owned by Valve I'd agree.
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Has anyone talked to Oracle about this? What do they think? Do they think the game is fine, do they have suggestions on what they would do to fix things?
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Maybe a killer who is comp could have? You cant expect a casual killer to verse a comp team and not get destroyed. This doesnt prove anything. Its like having a rank 20 killer vs a group of rank 1 survivors and claiming thats your undeniable proof...
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From what I've spoken to Xeno about, he said that the game should not be balanced around their level. Specifically we were talking about Spirit and although they have no problem beating Spirits, he agrees she needs a change for normal matches, for example.
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You're trying to smear Tru3's grasp of the game when he literally streams it every day, and loses survivors through exit gates rarely no matter what killer he's playing as. Is every single one of those matches against bad survivors? Highly unlikely. He admits they could be better, but usually they're at least decent on gens OR chase. But the team he went against are experts in both. And he's using Wraith for crying out loud. It is delusional to think that even Nurse or Spirit, or a certain player at the helm, would be able to handle these guys with ease. The game is simply isn't balanced around 4 great survivors on comms.
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Even if you think DBD should be balanced around top % there is another fundamental issue. These top % SWF teams are all using comms and in some cases discord screen sharing on a second monitor to share information.
No matter what you do as long as the devs refuse to give survivors basic information (without needing perks) + voice chat, then balancing around these top level teams will make the game unplayable for anyone who isn't doing that.
Let's loot at the dota example. Pro dota teams of course are talking to each other, but even casual players can see information about their other team mates (like their build and current performance in the match), can see everything their team mates can see, have voice chat, text chat, and a quick chat.
Of course in dota it's fair because both sides have that information, but that show's scott's point. Because killer is basically a different game from survivor. In order to get it to be balanced the amount of large sweeping changes you would need is nearly impossible.
You'd first have to close the gap between a team of randoms and a premade team so there isn't quite as big an informational gap (WITHOUT USING PERKS, premade teams don't need perks to do it, why do solos)
Then you'd need to balance killers around the new power level.
Then you'd need to get all the killers at the same power level.
At the rate BHVR changes those things and their unwillingness to do a lot of it, it's never going to happen
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That's kind of ridiculous if you ask me.
"We are able to stomp basically everyone, so the game shouldn't be balanced around us"
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Again, fix these things. Stop saying "It can't be done because the devs are bad" they can fix them.
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You're talking to a streamer. What do you think generates him more revenue and clicks, close competitive games or 'meme hold 'S' only and get a 4k at 5 gens!' video?
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I don't think its ridiculous at all. He knows that almost no one is at that level so its not relevant.
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Right, so he gets to continue to stomp everyone he plays right? Think about that for more than just 1 second.
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But he doesn't stomp everyone he plays. His competitive team only does KYF games. They don't even interact with the general population.
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At that point you could make the argument that these people are playing 2 different games.
So why not just eliminate the ability to play with SWF and say if you want to play with friends go do KYF.
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...seriously?
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You are basically saying "he only plays KYF so it doesn't affect you" but like, it does, because good survivors still exist in queue, SWF still exist in queue. I'm being hyperbolic when i say remove SWF. Are you going to also say that they NEVER play in regular queue like EVER EVER EVER? Of course they sometimes do.
There are still people who play like oracle does in regular queue though. And it is extremely frustrating when playing against that, no matter how rare it is. Because it is as your video said, nobody is expressing any skill, they just immediately drop pallets, and gens get done, and the game is boring.
Why would you NOT want to fix that so that the game can be fun for not only the average joe who plays the game while also being something that at high level has some great expression of skill. Why do you think the tournament scene for this game is a joke? What if the game was balanced, and fixed, and made more fun and more expressive for high level players? Maybe we could have a massive esports scene for this game like you do for other games like CS:GO, LoL, DotA, Starcraft etc.
The problem is you just come in, or make videos and say "BHVR is too dumb it can't be done" when that is a copout. They have the ability to make these types of changes, because they have done it before. They need to come out and talk about these things more openly honestly.
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There you go. Audio is a bit low on the game plus mic. I didn't realize it while I was recording. Following videos won't ever be this low again. It's what happens when I mess with OBS XD
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The problem is True calls any situation he gets outplayed in “swf”.
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Here we go again.
Who cares about any of that. Watch the match, watch the one with Dowsey.
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Anyone know how to get ahold of Oracle to face them? I would like a try.
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Watch how many times you go against a pro team in ranked lol 1/1000 matches maybe if that even. 99.9 percent of matches are not even close to that
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Also there are 6 matches, watched all of em :)
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It was a,first pass, i think that puts trickster up there though tbh. Legion up the duration if necessary. Point is, this isnt an entire rework like Freddy or Doc that had 2 different states making them stupid weak
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That's not a valid argument. How often do i go against a pro CS:GO team? Do they still balance the game around them or me?
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The current balance of dbd goes like this.
- Clueless noobs first day gets destroyed by the killer
- noob has been playing for a while and reached green/purple ranks and can loop a little but team mates let him down
- noob joins a dbd group and plays swf
- boosted noob wins more then then they lose and are now in red ranks thanks to coms
- noob finally gets good and knows what every killer does
- survivor player and team rarely lose beyond a select few killers <--- many people are at this stage in some regions with 2k hours being the norm
During that weird 4 day period after the mmr test where mmr seemed like it was still on, i had decent solo team mates and we finished the game with only 3-5 hooks most of the time. I also had trouble playing killers that i would normally be able to relax with like pyramidhead because the efficiency was insane.
I don't know what they did to change that but since yesterday i have been in games with mixed ranks so we get slaughtered and i am back to cruising on killer. I was even winning on twins with no addons and the sound off.. i never play the twins.
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In real matches, killers know to play dirty when they need to and still win against these SWF. TruTalent wants to 12 hook against a tournament SWF and still win. That would ruin the game entirely. This isn't deathgarden.
Killers are already so overpowered they win an overwhelming majority of matches.
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Both sides have the goal of winning the game, even if the win conditions are different between them (contradictory, even). The objective is to try and make that goal as roughly equally attainable for each side as possible. To balance for the top end is to try and accomplish this goal. Is it more difficult because of the asymmetry? Definitely. Is that an excuse to not try? No, not in my book.
Universal changes to a game are always going to have differing results in games where not all players are 100% equal. If you change something across the board to be better, sometimes the changes benefit certain characters more than others. That's just how it works in general. Sure, in DBD, the fact that there are two different-functioning sides in the game does mean that baseline changes are going to usually result in one side getting improved and another getting worse. To me, that doesn't mean "don't make these changes." In my book it means "put more effort into making changes that better the game's balance as a whole." If you buff the weak Killers to be more on the level of the strong Killers, now you need to look at the systems in place that are no longer balanced as a result of these changes and see what you can do to remedy those new issues. Maybe now the Survivors need some changes to help the solo players be more on the level of SWF. These sort of changes are not as simple as "Oh, just make Killers/Survivors stronger/weaker! Ez pz!" You need to figure out what parts on both sides of the fence are too strong, too weak, too clunky, etc. and you need to make changes that will hammer out those problems as best as possible.
Here's my problem with this mentality of "don't balance around the top%:" I feel like those people think that "balance around the top%" simply means "buff Killers." It doesn't. It doesn't mean "Make it so Killers win more." It doesn't mean "Make Survivors worse." What it MEANS is "Make it so the better players win more often." It means "Make it so player skill is more likely to result in a win or a loss rather than just taking advantage of flaws in game balance." Strive to give both sides as equal a chance to win as possible assuming roughly equal skill level. And if those skill levels are not equal? Well, the results should speak for themselves (and matchmaking should sort things out to try and mitigate the frequency of such a scenario). Even if this game is asymmetrical, it is still possible to try and aim for such a goal. It is possible for the predator and the prey to be evenly matched even if how they play is highly different.
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Your fundamental point doesn't click with me because in a single player game, it is possible to cater to both the speedrunner and to the casual player simultaneously.
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Seems pretty obvious to me. Against a tippity top 0.1% team like Oracle, you are gonna need to be a VERY good spirit/nurse to take em down. Like in competative cod, the top teams only use 1 or 2 guns. I also want to point out that Oracle is like a 1 in 1 million swf. The average swf is nowhere near that level.
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To me, this whole thing hinges on the assumption that asymmetrical games are impossible to balance, which is not a notion that I am convinced by.
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https://twitter.com/XenoDBD/status/1405758719024005123
Most comp players know the game is incredibly survivor sided, that why tourneys are a team of 4 survivors and killer vs another team of survivor and killer, and is almost never survivor vs killer
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Everyone already knows that 4 GOOD survivors on a team together is op. Finding a swf group like Oracle is extremely unlikely and is thus not a problem.
Also, I am sure truetalent is a pretty neat guy but he is hardly a top tier killer player.
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This isn't true at all. I get that True can rub some people the wrong way, but to say that he is bad shows that you are either insanely biased or don't know the game. I watch all of the major streamers: True, Umbra, Otz, Scott, Bronx, and so on. They are pretty much all on the same level, which is partly a reflection of DBD's limitations. You can only be so good at the game because the game limits what you can do. The only real difference between any of them is that some slug more than others. Killer gameplay is pretty consistent among all the top streamers.
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Let's say that in a fighting game, a tournament level player finds that a certain character can pull off an infinite combo that none of the other characters can do, but only the top 0.01% of the player base is skilled enough to actually do it. Should the game designers of said fighting game then just ignore the infinite combo since only such a small number of players are talented enough to time it right?
Of course not, because that would be a terrible game design and overall balancing decision. Same thing here. You balance games by the best players to measure the potential and limits of that role they are playing. The fact that you rarely face those players is a horrible reason to not balance the game correctly - of course the best players are rare, that's basically the definition of being the best. Not understanding this simply shows that many people don't understand the basic concept of game design and balance.
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I also feel like so many people are simply ignoring the fact, that the top % are not even using best tools in the game. Also i win so many games SIMPLY because survivors are beeing cocky and overconfident or overly altruistic. The only reason survivors are not dominating WAY harder is because they have no incentive to try hard. This game is 'balanced' by psychology and not by game mechanics. The game mechanics are completely broken. How can so many of the guys in here just ignore that? "You cannot balance around top %" is such a dense statement to make, when the top % are absolutely dominating WITHOUT the best perks and items and addons. They are simply dominating by stellar gameplay. It might be true that not many people play like this however the less skilled people use the best tools in the game and thus the gap of power is not even that big as projected by many in here. How can anyone say that this game is even remotely close to beeing alright, when you literally have no counterplay to survivors and have to rely on mistakes from the other sides. I remember Scotts Video about Spirit having no counterplay and people who let themselves beeing countered are 'just bad spirits' (no true scotsman btw). How is only beeing able to win because survivors make mistakes not the same damn thing? How is balancing around top % such a problem, but balancing around the better spirits is totally a fine thing and spirit is such a problem because of it. There is no counterplay to good survivors either. The amount of contradiction and illogical reasoning here is so incredibly frustrating. I just wish we could base a discussion like this on actual logical arguments for once. We saw top % gameplay but we did not even get to see the full potential survivors have, because again they did not even use the best tools. And this is not even considering other completely broken things like Map design, bceause they used somewhat 'balanced' maps.
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To be fair and i have to make an argument against my own position here: Almost all Killer Streamers are all around Players, there are very few who spent even 50% of their time on just one killer. Tru3 also plays 50/50 Killer and Survivor. You could argue that things would look a little different if they focused more on a few killers. It is the reality of the game that many killers just main a few and thus may be better with specific killers than any of these streamers. Is the skill ceiling that different? No, but the point still stands.
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I was actually surprised to hear dowsey call him the best killer back then. Apparently he used to be the guy everyone looked at for top tier killer game plat
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If by good you mean the top .1% yeah I guess so.
Then you also have to define what counts as a win more than 6 hooks or 3+ kills
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Dude they absolutely should never implement a mmr system in this broken game.
I can see the massive increase in tunneling already
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Cause this game was built for bronze players.
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Thanks for the video.
It was helpful seeing you deal with pallets and your strategy.
Is there a reason why you hit through the unsafe pallet at 5:30 instead of forcing the drop first like you did with other pallets? Its faster but you risk the stun.
Are unsafe pallets the only loops where you use your lunge? Is there any trick for standard tiles on other maps like car loops? For jungle gym and shack you use bamboozle, right?
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How can you compare an esport team as usual swf's in publics ? i think thoses esports teams are farrrrr more stronger than 99% standarts swf so i affirm youre overreacting.
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It can't be very fun for strong SWFs winning game after game. They will get tired of it. But game is probably always going to be survivor sided otherwise it's hard to find four times as many survivor players, so it is what it is.
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I did it because no matter what, I'll get the hit on an unsafe loop and its better to do that than try to mindgame it. It'll take longer, which wastes time while others' are on a gen. When its a competitive style, you have to be quick because gens NEVER stop. Your lunge can be used at medium pallets also. It just takes practice to see how far you can actually lunge from. I'm pretty confident in my lunge ranges so, if I take a shot, it's only because I can hit you before you can make it to a pallet.
Also, yes, there is a trick to car loops as Wraith. There is a certain distance where you can uncloak and still make it to them before they can get to a pallet unless they camp the pallet itself but once it's thrown, you CAN hit them at a car loop because of the delay when jumping OVER the pallet itself. You want to make your movement when uncloaking, unpredictable. You want them to second-guess which way you're going so you can't do the same turn each time. It's all about making them hesitate and pay for that hesitation.
You saw how I jerked back a few times or randomly turned before swinging? I was making them choose which side of the pallet to go to for a hit and a pallet drop. It's all about the timing and getting in their head. Keep the pressure so they never recover. Finally, long loops are better to walk into and get stunned while uncloaked to remove that pallet quickly. Blocking a window at a jungle gym makes it easier to get the hit on the second window because then they only have two options. Jump the window or keep running but the odds are, they'll try to jump it since Bamboozle is up so stay cloaked until you can get them between the windows then uncloak on them.
If they go around it, they get hit, if they jump the window from between the windows, they medium vault over it but you'll still get the hit and if they try to fake it, you'll see it and still get a hit. It's pretty nasty when you have Bamboozle. STBFL keeps helps you if they body block but also helps you constantly stay on their ass after a hit, keeping each broken pallet an easier time to hit them safely before they can reach another. It compliments Wraith very well with his speed and uncloak.
Final note: You have 2 full seconds before you lose your speed lunge attack so for those 2 seconds, you can still move normally then swing for the full range lunge. A lot don't seem to know that and waste it by trying to swing immediately. It's not as long as immediately swinging but its enough to clear most gaps in distance.
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Both evolve and Deathgarden died because they balanced the game around majority. It wasn't uncommon that scavengers had hilariously long queque compared to hunter. This should speak how unbalanced the game was.
Saying that you cannot high level gameplay in dead by daylight is same as saying that survivors should stay overpowered in high level gameplay. I don't know how to balance it, but at the same time a lot survivors on this forums are crying that 2 killers that can challenge these high level survivors need to be nerfed. Devs have managed to do some good stuff to nerf high rank survivors like DS rework and Object rework, which won't negatively hurt low rank survivors barely at all.
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Evolve is debatable but Deathgarden was definitely treated and presented as a competitive asymmetrical game.
No, saying you cannot have high level balance in DBD is NOT the same as saying survivors should stay OP at the top. Also big difference between balancing for 4 good players and 4 man swf who have been playing the game for years trying their absolute hardest to win a match no matter the cost. If you try to balance the game around the top 1 percent it will kill the game. I've explained it in great detail already in my previous replies to other people, but in short it would require so many changes that not only would it take years to do (during that time no chapters will be posted due to how many changes will need to take place) but it would also take everything that current DBD does now and pretty much make it unrecognizable. RNG on maps? Can't have that, too unbalanced. Speaking of maps most of them would need to be changed to be either dead dawg size or coal tower size, anything more is too large. There would also need to be a drastic decrease in loops and all killers would need to be buffed into S tier which would take an insane amount of time especially considering how some Killers like trickster are fundamentally flawed meaning they need an entire power rework like Freddy.
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I don't think any asymmetrical game can be perfectly balanced, ever. But there are things you can do to get closer to actual balance even in high level game play. Devs are just lazy or too scared to do drastic changes specially when it comes to survivor side, which is kind of obvious as they bring majority of the money in. But like i said earlier they have done some small changes that help. There was no excuse why they would add a perk like OoO which was fundamentally broken with SWF.
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And two of which are just so fun to control on console. Often makes me wonder if we're we even playing the same game?
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Yes I feel console Killers especially get stuffed when up against good SWF groups :(
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you're making it sound like every SWF was on the level of that group.
please note that just because you're facing a 4 man SWF does NOT mean they'd be hardcore sweaty tryhards who'd do anything they can to beat you. 95% of SWFs out there are just friends playing together.
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