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Truetalent vs Oracle team, what do you think?
Comments
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that statement is wrong. the survivors had to run unique perks and they had to run a unique item below yellow rarity. none of these rules exist in solo queue. they weren't running optimized builds. Tru3 playing Wraith could run anything. they purposely handicapping themselves and the matches were extremely one-sided.
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Yes might be true, but the it is extremeley likely that the animation reset happens. I have like 90-95% rate of knowing when she phases when i tested this with friends. All of my friends achieved the same after just like 30 minutes of training, which is not much.
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Dowsey played against them after that. He lost hard. He played the twins, managed to get a good camp going at shack, which resulted in a 1k. The game after that 0k.
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I don't think you watched those videos.
Come back to me once you've seen them instead of the typical "TRU3 BAD, TRU3 ALWAYS WRONG" gimmick
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If the games not competitive then why an mmr, and why does it take hundreds of hours to really start getting good? Theres no mmr or skill caps in mario party
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Because Mario party doesnt have an online scenario. You could play DBD like Mario Party if you were to play Kill Your Friends constantly.
But that aside, there is a skill cap in Mario Party. If you can win minigames consistently, you win games consistently. Just like in DBD, if you can hook consistently as a killer, you win consistently as a killer. Or if you fix gens consistently as a survivor, you win consistently as a survivor.
As for MMR, DBD is never going to be pure MMR based. MMR is going to help seperate players in terms of skill to even out the odds a bit better. Let alone that MMR is VERY recent. This game is 5 years old. Why no MMR from the start? If Mario Party were online and as popular as DBD, you would need an MMR system there too to seperate players.
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Dowsey use to play with the oracle members and he played wraith against them after tru3 and got the same result. he use to be a comp player.
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Mario Party has had online play for a while now, and the next game should have it too...
Hooking consistently also can't happen against good Survivors unless you're playing a Killer with a good chase power. The over-all skill cap for Killer is lower than Survivor, since Survivors can place themselves in optimal positions and always prevent 50/50s as a result. You would need to be playing a Killer like Nurse, Spirit, Slinger, Blight, etc... which is why these Killers get complained about.
But anyways, Killer and Survivor do not have the same cap, good Survivors will always be able to outplay a Killer regardless of the Killer's skill level. Good Survivors always trump good Killers unless the Killer they're playing is top tier.
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There is no data that shows survivor players need to make mistakes for killers to win. In fact, that's just something some Streamer said and now is parroted back by the masses.
I mean how does that saying even make sense. No one plays optimally, so there's no way to even test this saying.
Look at the Tru3talent game, he absolutely did not play optimally. The survivors were much more optimal than him, but even they didn't play optimally. So you are taking a much less optimal Wraith game play with a streamer that isn't the optimal killer player and are comparing it to survivors that play much more optimally setup and are one of the best teams in DBD and comparing sub-optimal Killer game play to a much much higher optimization of pro DBD team.
I think you would need the top Nurse killer, with the best perks and best add-ons on a map that is considered average, against that pro-DBD team before you can even compare the 2.
(And we both know this is NOT normal game play on any level).
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So, I didn't play against or as pre-nerf nurse. I have watched some gameplay of her though from that time because I was curious. I'm not exactly sure how people are supposed to 'learn to play differently' against a Killer who can negate pretty much all survivor defenses (exhaustion perks, except maybe dead hard on occassion, pallets & windows) with that power/ability being almost on demand for the Killer & significantly enhanced by add-ons. And it seems like Omega Blink Nurse could pretty much cross the entire map with very little penalty at all. Especially with stealth getting so many nerfs for survs. I'm guess Omega Blink build had a lot to do with the prevalence of 5gen/4 slugs game outcomes with Nurse.
I completely get why people did not like/hate the cool down. I don't know if there was a better solution or if that was just the easiest one to implement.
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Omega blink Nurse was definitely broken, but nothing else should have been changed. Nurse does not “negate all survivor defenses”. You can break her line of sight and force her to guess if you are going to run back or not. There is gameplay on both sides. If you watched true’s video, you’d see that killer gets absolutely no gameplay. They just instantly slam pallets and body block. The game needs to be more like Nurse and Spirit and less like holding forward/pallet sim.
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It has online play, but Free Play is extremely recent(seriously, its 2 months old) and cannot really be used as an argument since it's new.
"Hooking consistently also can't happen against good Survivors unless you're playing a Killer with a good chase power."
Can happen tho, I've been hooking consistently with pretty much all killers I play, including Legion and Myers. They arent tournament survivors, sure, but to claim tournament survivors are the only good survivors is claiming that 99.9% of the playerbase is bad. Which is false.
"The over-all skill cap for Killer is lower than Survivor, since Survivors can place themselves in optimal positions and always prevent 50/50s as a result."
Also false, killers have a much higher skill cap than survivors. Survivors simply have more potential. But you do ignore the following: once 1 survivor is dead, survivors cannot fix more than 1 generator, as 1 survivor is on the hook, and needs to be saved within 60 or 120 seconds(154 if you have camaraderie). As soon as 1 survivor is dead, survivors need to get very creative to fix more than 1 gen. Which is why my current playing philosophy is to make sure 1 survivor is dead once 3 gens are done, and if I want to be merciful, I can leave all 4 survivors alive untill they fix the 3rd gen. Once 1 survivor is gone with more than 1 generator left, killers win. Even if all pallets are being dropped, even if all "second-chance" perks are being used, even if they bodyblock with BT.
4 survivors have, and need to have, more potential than the killer. If you want to nerf 4 survivors/buff killers to give the killer and survivor equal potential at the start of the match, you need to nerf the killer's potential/buff survivor potential for every survivor that got removed. Meaning Killers actually would become less powerful over time while survivors get more powerful over time. In contrast to the current situation where survivors get less powerful over time vs killers getting more powerful over time.
The only reasons top tier survivors are more powerful than top tier killers, is because they keep the killer busy and since they are all at equal skill level, it doesnt matter for the killer who is being chased and they cannot drop the chase. This is why tournaments have specific rules on limiting perks that buy time for survivors.
This is why having pure MMR and balancing the game around competition, and calling this game competitive is all moot. Because this game is more similar to Mario Party, than it is to CSGO. And that's fine.
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No data... alright man, guess the games yesterday were just a coincedence than. Also we are on 'No true Scotsman' territory here. There is simply no way that tru3 was going to win these games yesterday but oh well. You made up your mind already. Show me 5 games, where wraiths or trapper or pig or any killer except nurse and spirit wins against that team, mate. And even nurse and spirit seem to loose the majority of games against them. You say Stats are the only data we have and simply ignore that games like this are data too. Btw games like this are data with context. Killrates are not. And they did not even play with the best perks and best composition..
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He casted the tru3 match and then versed them directly after with the same result on both wraith and twins.
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The window for breaking LOS with nurse on just fatigue was pretty small. And with scratch marks, etc, it's not like survs were that hard to track post fatigue from what I've been watching. But it does seem like the only defense was breaking LOS and hoping you guessed right. I think it's understandable that players don't like 'and hope I guess right' anymore than 'and hope the cooldown isn't too punishing'. I mean, her blink was far enough to eat up distance gained by most exhaustion perks, she can go around pallets without much, if any penalty with her blink, go through windows without any slow down with her blink and take the shortest route to up or down stairs. Even at loops with high walls, there's generally two ways for survs to go, making even strong loops just 50/50s.
Don't get me wrong, I like playing against Nurse even if I hardly ever win. She can be a much more dynamic Killer to play against in a chase. However, I honestly cannot imagine what that would be like without having the window the cool down provides.
Do you think if they fixed some of the bugs that seem to be plaguing nurse that it'd make her CD less a problem?
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Ive been watching it, i like dowsey
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Exactly.
More than anything the depip squad exposed how powerful survivors are when they sit on gens.
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My problem with the cooldown is that it forces her to play lame. Her map control was most impacted by the cooldown, not her chase. Now she struggles to go from place to place, which means that in most situations it is better for her to stay near the hook. I feel like the devs have absolutely no idea what they did with the change. It promotes less fun gameplay.
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Well first of all game is survivor sided of course, second the survivor players are probably better than Tru individually since he is not one of the very best killers. And last he used Wraith who is a mediocre killer.
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The truth forgotten and buried years ago is obvious and simple: there is no way to balance the game around SWF simply because it is another game mode.
Although the game does not have it on the menu as another game mode, SWF is just that: another game mode.
It is not possible to balance two game modes as if they were the same.
The day that BHVR decides to do the test of having the two modes separated (solo-q and SWF) then there they will be able to balance them separately. Surely solo-q will not change much and SWF will have some nerf on the side of the survivors, but above all several buffs on the side of the killers.
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Dead by Daylight is a game where depending on the side you choose to play, you will be faced with either a PvP experience or a PvE experience. They want one side to play the environment role. They can say they don't meant that, that they are working or a b or c. Yet this is the way it feels and their game speaks louder than their words.
So basically they ######### on one side. This works perfectly fine when people plays quite chill i.e. they suck i.e. Problem arises as you start improving. And this is what we get at it's finest. You can talk with any of the members from Oracle. They expected one hook. They know that Wraith regardless of whom might play should not get more than one hook. The most important fact is that you don't need to face oracle to start experiencing how boosted one side starts to feel. People keep pointing the obvious thing that not everyone is Oracle. You don't need to be Oracle to experience this. You just need to be good and have a bunch of friends who are also good. That's it.
People also points out that this is not a daily thing. That's not ground truth for everyone. Region, time, mmr probably soon. All of them are variables that influence the caliber that you are meet with. To ignore this is just shitting over a portion of your playerbase. Fairness? Dedication? Healthy competition? Are those values that you don't promote?
If you play killer you are here to play the environment role. This is what happens when people capitalize on that.
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Precisely. Very few killers managed to get a safety against the Depip Squad. The first was a Freddy, and I think a Huntress did it too.
Or was it a Nurse? I don't even remember.
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Did I say he was bad? Can you show me where I said that so I can change it? Because I'm almost positive I didnt say he was bad.
I'd say hes somewhere between average and good. I just dont think hes as amazing as he clearly seems to think he is.
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One other thing to add: This was a bit of a mismatch. A random college basketball player isn't going to jump in an NBA game and compete. Oracle can (on rare occasions) be beaten by killers like PH. I've seen it happen. You just can't take in Wraith, try to play hit and run against some of the best survivors in the world who have been practicing with each other almost daily for 3 years, and expect a decent result.
Tru3 isn't at a competitive level on killer. Not saying he couldn't get there, but you don't get there by playing solos all the time. A better killer gets a better result.
But to say this is indicative of anything is kind of wild. Yes, guy who never played comp DbD got rolled by the best comp DbD team in the world. Who woulda thunk it?
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Chief i face this ,,gamer,, 1000s times hes a noob.
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Well they can’t build the game around red rank swf teams. That is not representative of the casual player base. I’m not a fan of tru3. I find him pompous and entitled. He complains about everything but his lack of skill, while getting mostly 4K games. It’s a joke.
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The thing is not average survivor SWF level, the thing is what SWF can do when they are playing serious and what killer can do when playing serious.
SWF can Smash 90% of Killers and Killers can't do nothing against good SWF, that is the point we must get.
Just take a look on YT or Twitch, and check tournaments, Killers just try to make a 3Gen strat and hook One survivor there to camp the zone, because playing as que should, using the entire map, we are done Since the game starts.
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I don't understand why the Devs don't make a normal and competitive mode. They could balance competitive mode dramatically differently than normal mode.
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It only takes to allow voice chat in-game. Provide the same tools swf have and further develop into better teamwork mechanics. You solve solo vs swf disparity and then balance accordingly. That's it. Such a drastic task. Clearly we need privileged minds for such pursuit
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Is Tru3talent a killer main that plays at the same level of play as one of the best DBD teams? Is Wraith the best killer in the game? If you say no to either one of those, then how is this "data" reliable for anything? How is this not comparing apples to oranges? Also, how is taking a very small subset of biased data and claiming it proves something, used in statistics, since you claimed to work in statistics?
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A lot of people are missing some points.
- The purpose of the match was not to check the state of the game. The subject came up, but it was actually to see if Wraith could be played at the top level. Results: He can't.
- Now, the sidetracked conversation on balance on DBD. Not many are saying the game should be balanced around Oracle. Stop being disingenuous. However, as it stands, the game isn't even balanced around good but not cracked survivors. You don't have to be Oracle to stomp the vast majority of the killer roster, even if they themselves are playing at a high level. A large reason why killers do well at all is because bad matchmaking is a thing, and someone was boosted to high ranks on a survivor team.
- Casual /=/ imbalanced. If there's a match where there's no hope for one side to win, it's not casual for that side. It's casual for the side that's stomping because there's no chance of loosing.
Post edited by MarcoPoloYolo on9 -
Please do not lecture me on statistics and do not use words like bias when you don't know what they mean. I do not have to calculate 20 + 20 100 times to know it equals 40. There was simply NOTHING Tru3 or anyone could have done to win these games. This is fairly obvious as there are no other strategies that could have worked in this scenario. This team also shits on the rather stronger killers by the way. You also love to ignore that they did not even use the strongest tools surviors have. Competetive DBD is usually rather restrictive. And again please realize that there are things in life that need just ONE set of data to be proven. We only need one showcase of survivors playing optimal to prove who the power role. Even if Tru3 made mistakes as you say, he did whiff a few times, i'll admit that, there is no way that he would have won these games. If you claim otherwise, then please provide us with the information and tell and show us the strategies that would have worked. Otherwise THIS is the best Data we have. Also from a mathematical standpoint: Considering how long chases last on average and how long generators take to repair, killers just cannot win in an optimal (as in few errors on survivor side, no error on killer side) scenario. This can be proven the same way it can be proven that a Goalkeeper in football has no way to save a penalty if the penalty is shot in a specific way.
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What an excellent argument for further buffing wraith. Thanks fam
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This is the point, it is to showcase that a team playing at optimal level will destroy any killer who is not nurse or spirit. And even then nurse and spirit have to try pretty damn hard.
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Just because it is rare doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed.
Imagine if a killer offering existed, that only had a 0.1% chance to appear in the bloodweb. This means it would appear in about 1 out of every 1000 games. Now, let's say this offering:
- Makes the killer get max 32k bloodpoints
- Killer moves at 200% movement speed
- Survivors are permanently exposed
- Survivors auras are permanently revealed to the killer.
Would that offering be balanced? It only appears in 1 out of every 1000 games. So the offering is fine, right?
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I've been teaching my dude but I'm more of a surprise and hit kind of Wraith that never gives you a chance to relax. Bamboozle for windows and such, STBFL to gain stacks so they get less and less distance and if someone blocks me, they get punished for it at later stacks, BBQ (Or for competitive DBD, Whispers) to find someone quickly after a hook so I can see if they're on a gen or not, and Pop Goes The Weasel due to his speed. I use the windstorm add-ons and faster decloak add-ons so I can catch them sooner, block them if need be or get ahead of them quickly if they try to escape and finally, I see where they are and I try to position myself at a favorable position, usually at the tip of what they were doing and start uncloaking. They have 2 seconds to choose left or right before my speed boost hits them. What he was doing was just letting them have free pallet throws. You can't do that as Wraith against a competitive team.
(Edit: I can do a video of how I play Wraith at Rank 1 if you want. I'm starting to think that I play differently than most Wraith players XD)
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2 things can be true at once. But i'd say the bigger problem is that the other 22 killers can't compete. Fix the whole game, then nerf nurse and spirit.
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You're making a false dichotomy. It would be more accurate to have an offering like that and then punish the other 999 games that don't have the offering in order to make that one match fair. That's the issue. We know its broken.
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That isn't true. If they balance around the top 1%, it doesn't affect the bottom 99% all the time. Look at some of these god loops in the game, like jungle gyms, where against a good survivor a killer has to bloodlust to get the pallet and then reset again. Meanwhile you just wasted 30-45 seconds of the killers time.
Now if you nerf that loop, it makes it so that good survivor can't waste that much of a killer's time just because of the tile. Now what about that average survivor that goes down in 20 seconds? That survivor is still going to go down in 20 seconds. It didn't affect them.
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I talked about this in the comments of your video. But you can make changes that don't negatively affect the low level of players. Nerfing god loops makes it so good survivors can't abuse them. The survivors who go down in 20 seconds still go down in 20 seconds regardless of whether or not the god loop is a god loop.
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Right but you aren't addressing the fact that at the highest level people don't even loop. There is no "god loop" at high level because people just throw down pallets as soon as they get to them because there is no downside to doing so when your team can end the game in 3 minutes.
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Right, but what if you couldn't end the game in 3 minutes. Then you do things for survivors that fix things at low level play, fix camping, fix tunneling. Like, what if survivors couldn't actually die until everyone has been hooked 2 times. Suddenly the game gets a lot better for those low level survivors. There is more to it than that, but there are tons of things you can do to improve the low level experience that don't affect the high level experience, and vice versa.
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You are proposing such drastic changes to the fundamental mechanics of DBD that its almost pointless to entertain them, unfortunately.
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Maybe, but its because i want this game to be balanced.
Like there are tons of fundamental things they can do to make the game better. Add a stamina bar that drains like HSH so survivors can't just hold W. Add more pallets, but less god pallets/loops. Make gens take longer (not just holding m1, add some mechanic). Make tunneling and camping impossible, or just bad (they aren't healthy for the fun aspect of the game). Fix nurse and spirit.
There are tons of things that can be done.
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But learning to looP is part of the survivor learning curve. To take that out is a slap to new players and catering to killers who already have the advantage. The issue is there is no skill curve to playing killer which is why so many struggle at red ranks. While survivors grind, killers coast on easy 4K games and crutch perks from rank 18-4. It’s only then they get their cheeks clapped and start crying about it.
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Fixing god loops that survivors can waste 45 seconds of a killers time without getting hit or a pallet does not make looping not good. Against good survivors a single hit of a chase can take up to 45 seconds for a total of a 90 second chase. Bad survivors go down in 20 seconds. See the disparity? Bring those 2 numbers closer together so chases last on average say, 45 seconds. Then adjust other aspects of the game to address this.
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Sure, fix that too. Camping and tunneling isn't healthy for the game because it's not fun for 4 other players. Make camping and tunneling either impossible or bad. My idea is to make it so you can't eliminate survivors at all until they all have been hooked 2 times.
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Game is survivor sided. Don't lie,
Don't even defend that stance either,
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The other aspect i just realized as well is that, with MMR coming, if they don't fix this, there will be cascading problems that could kill this game (literally not hyperbolic)
- MMR gets implemented
- Top tier survivors only play against nurse and spirit every game
- Top tier survivors get bored of the game and do one of 2 things, they either quit, or start downranking on purpose to get more varied matches.
- If they quit, now those top tier killers have to get matched with someone, so they start getting matched against lower survivors, who start complaining about their matches, so they start quitting, and thus the cycle repeats forever until nobody is left playing survivor anymore.
- If they downrank on purpose, they still get those high level killers, because those killers have to get matched against SOMEONE. So eventually they give up and quit, thus repeating the above cycle forever.
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Nope, i want it so that rank 20 killers playing against rank 20 survivors average a 2k/2e every game, and top tier teams against top tier killers have that same average.
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