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Idea For Spirit Changes
Hello Reader! I’m just another DBD player who spends too much time thinking about this game. Here are my opinions on the Spirit. Note: This post is definitely going to be a longer one, just because I want to completely explain the reasoning behind the changes I suggest. However, if you want to skip straight to the proposed changes, skip over the paragraphs and head straight to the bulleted list. Additionally, many of the points I bring up are going to sound very similar to those of popular content creators like Otzdarva and ScottJund; this is because I felt like these players have done a good job analyzing what makes the Spirit so frustrating to play against sometimes.
So, as you can probably already tell, I am one of the many unoriginal people who believe that the Spirit can be kind of frustrating to play against. Regardless of whether you personally believe that the Spirit has counter play, there is no denying that there is no consistent way to tell when the Spirit is using her power. Now, sometimes, this isn’t an issue. When Survivors go up against newer or predictable Spirits, Survivors can sometimes “read” the Killer player and make predictions as to where a Spirit is Phasing. While this can work and Survivors can even win chases against the Spirit, it still leaves the Survivor doing nothing more than guessing, which can be frustrating to players who desire more skill-based interactions. Not to mention that more unpredictable Spirits, or Spirit players with a good headset, can often be so consistent with their Phasing that it makes Survivors feel like they have no options.
On top of the inability to tell when the Spirit is using her power, some of the Spirit’s add-ons can make her power feel even more oppressive. When a Spirit equips add-ons such as the Decreased Power Activation Time or Increased Power Speed, the Survivor gets less time to make a guess on whether the Spirit is Phasing or not. Not to mention that some of her add-ons, namely the Duration Increasing add-ons, are actually bugged. At the time of making this post, these add-ons not only let the Spirit use her power for longer, but they also increase her Power Recovery Speed as well (apparently at higher percentages then the actually Power Recovery Speed add-ons). While add-ons are meant to improve a Killer’s power, the Spirit’s add-ons seem to do this to an unnatural degree; this may be due to the lack of visual cues that a Survivor has that could let them deduce what add-ons the Spirit is running.
The following proposed changes seeks to add a visual cue that Survivors can use to judge the Spirit’s position and add-ons, while also giving Spirit players more freedom with when they get to use their power.
1. The Spirit should leave Scratch Marks when Phasing
a. For example: While Phasing, The Spirit leaves blue Scratch Marks in the environment that can be seen by all Players in a Trial. These Scratch Marks sparkle white with the same “shards” that are very rarely seen on the Spirit’s Husk when she Phases. These Scratch Marks last for 5 secs: they take 0.5 secs to fade in, have maximum visibility for 4 secs, and take 0.5 secs to fade out.
i. Note: for the rest of this post, I will be referring to these Scratch Marks as the “Shard Trail”
2. The Spirit should no longer have to wait until her power meter is full before she can Phase
a. For example: The Spirit can charge and activate her Phase as long she has at least one charge available, and she will phase until either all the charges are used or the Player ends the power
3. The Spirit’s Duration add-ons should be fixed to increase only power duration
a. For example: Simplify the Duration Increasing add-ons so they only increase the total number of charges that can be held within a fully charged power meter.
4. The Spirit should have a slight delay before her power starts recharging after exiting her power
a. For example: After exiting Phase, The Spirits power meter has a Recharge Delay of 1.5 secs which must fully elapse before the power begins recharging
i. Note: this Recharge Delay is incurred even if the Phase is only partially charged
The goal of the first change is to give Survivors a definitive visual cue that lets them know when The Spirit is Phasing. If a Spirit stands still, and no Shard Trail appears, then the Spirit is not Phasing. If a Spirit stands still, and shortly after a Shard Trail starts appearing, then a Survivor would know for a fact that the Spirit is Phasing and would have a general idea of where the Spirit is and what direction she is moving in. This would (in theory) open up the potential for mind games between both sides. A Survivor player who also plays Killer might be more experienced with tracking movements based off of Scratch Marks, and they might be more capable of predicting the Spirit’s actions. Likewise, a Spirit player who also plays Survivor might be familiar with the concept of “Scratch Mark jukes”; The Spirit player could start traveling in one direction around a loop, leaving a Shard Trail that telegraphs movement in one direction, and then (using the Spirit’s superior speed) quickly change directions to catch the Survivor off guard.
Additionally, the inclusion of the Shard Trail as a visual cue could also aid in giving experienced/attentive Survivors the ability to deduce the add-ons the Spirit player is running and allow for playstyle adjustments. For example, the time it takes for a Spirit to activate her Phase is 1.5 secs by default; if a Survivor sees a Spirit stop moving, and then less than 1.5 secs later a Shard Trail starts forming, than that Survivor can deduce that the Spirit is running a Decreased Charge Time add-on. The base movement speed of a Spirit Phasing is about 7.06 meters/sec, which means at default, a Spirit should leave about a 7-meter Shard Trail per sec of Phasing; if a Survivor notices that more than 7 meters of Shard Trail is left per sec, (or if the Shard Trail just appears to be moving faster than “normal”) than the Spirit might be running an Increased Speed add-on. The base maximum duration that a Spirit can Phase is 5 secs; so, if a Survivor notices that a Spirit is leaving a single Shard Trail for longer than 5 secs, than that Survivor can guess that the Spirit is running an Increased Duration add-on. Now the Increased Recharge Rate add-ons are a little more subtle. I can’t think of truly obvious indicator that a Spirit is running this type of add-on; the only real way to notice this would be if the Spirit is Phasing more frequently than “normal.”
The goal of the second change is to give some sort of consolation to the Spirit player, now that her power can telegraph a lot more information for Survivors. The reason I think that this change would be a suitable buff is because it gives the Spirit player more viable options in using her power. What I mean by this is that Spirit’s power currently restricts when it can be used because the power meter has to be fully charged before beginning a Phase. This means that in most instances, a Spirit Player has to choose between using her Phase as map-mobility tool or a chasing tool. If the Spirit uses her power for medium or long-distance Phasing, she has to wait an extended period of time before she can use her power in chase, even if she has a third of her power left. On the flip side, if a Spirit chooses to hold onto her power for a future chase, the Spirit is forced to patrol the map as a 4.4 meter/sec killer. If the Spirit wasn’t restricted in this way, then the Spirit could do something like use half of her power to quickly relocate after hooking a Survivor and still have half of her power to Phase in a chase. This change would not make it so that a Spirit is Phasing 90% of the match but would (hopefully) reward smart Spirit Players who could effectively manage their resources.
Now the third change might not seem like a thoughtful suggestion, but let me explain what I mean by “simplifying it.” Now I don’t know this for 100% fact, but I think I understand why the Increased Duration add-ons have Power Recovery Speed increases as well. Players who are familiar with how the Spirit’s power works know that for every 1 sec that the Spirit Phases, she has to wait 3 secs to recover that amount of power; this means that at the default maximum Phase duration of 5 secs, the default maximum recovery time is 15 secs. Now, if the Increased Duration add-ons only increased the total amount of time that a Spirit could Phase, without any modification to the recovery speed, then that means a Spirit Player who Phased for longer than 5 secs would inadvertently be penalized with a longer than 15 sec recovery time; they would be shut out of their power for longer than normal, because the Spirit was designed to only be able to use her power once it was fully charged. So, it seems to me that the developers tried to incorporate a hidden recovery speed buff so that the recovery time never extended past 15 secs, without considering what this recovery speed buff would do if the Spirit Player only used their power in shorter bursts.
Regardless of whether this is true or not, I believe that the second change I mentioned can help with this third change. If the Spirit was allowed to use her power as long as charges were available, then it wouldn’t matter if it took longer than 15 secs to completely charge the Spirit’s power meter. She would still be allowed to use what power she recovered at the default rate because the restriction of requiring a fully charged meter would have been removed. This simplification of when she can use her power could in turn simplify the fix that could be applied to her bugged Duration add-ons.
Lastly, the reason why I suggest a Recharge Delay on the Spirit’s power is because it would serve as a punishment to Spirits who repeatedly use their power in small bursts without being able to land a hit. The situation I am trying to describe is what happens when a Survivor attempts to loop a Spirit at a short loop with either a pallet or a window. At these shorter loops, a Spirit player can potentially keep a Survivor stuck in place for the remainder of the trial, as long as they use their power in short bursts. Even if a Survivor manages to dodge the Spirit’s attacks, the Survivor often can’t capitalize and run to the next loop. This is due to the fact that the Spirit immediately begins to recover her power as soon as she exits her Phase; this allows her to almost immediately regain her full power, which she can use to either attempt another short burst Phase if the Survivor stays at the loop or attempt a longer Phase if the Survivor attempts to run out into the open to get to another loop. This can leave the Survivor feeling like they have no choice other than try to push off the inevitable. However, if the Spirit had a slight Recharge Delay on her power, then the Survivor in turn receives larger windows where the Spirit has less or no power left for a brief period after a Phase. This serves as a reward for Survivors who do manage to avoid a Spirit’s Phase by giving them the opportunity to extend the chase.
All of the suggested changes, when put together, are meant to increase the amount of “mind-gameable” interactions between Spirits and Survivors that have potent risks vs rewards. This is (in general) what most players in DBD want.
But what do you think? Are these ideas good or trash? (Again, sorry for the short novel!)
Comments
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I like most of that but i'll be honest as someone who doesnt play spirit and hates going against her, the scratch mark idea is kind of awful, and gives away way too much info.
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While the shard trail may seem good in theory, I do believe it gives off a little too much information to the survivor
You also have the problem of some maps being able to blend the shard trails very well, like MacMillan or Ormond, maybe even tall grass would obstruct the scratch marks
I believe the best way to approach The Spirit is to give both sides the exact same amount of information. But of course The Spirit would have the upperhand because of increased movement speed
Here was my go at it: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/263326/my-attempt-at-a-spirit-rework
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Showing where the Spirit is via scratch marks kinda defeats the whole point of her being, you know, invisible.
Her power is a stealth power, being invisible is the whole point. In exchange there's a significant cooldown on her ability, so she can't use it all the time, or for very long.
The main gripe people have with Spirit's power is the counterplay at loops. The 'mind game' that gives you a 50/50 chance of getting to the next loop, before she does it again.
I would simply give a time limit on the duration the 'husk' remains at the spot she started phasing. Have it vanish after 3 seconds, so that she basically gets a 3 second head start, and mind games are limited to 3 seconds long.
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Thing is, the power would still be unbalanced even if we could see it.
I'm not going to get survivors into the mix, I'm just going to compare her with other killers, specially those who their power let's them go fast.
- Hillbilly: Power takes longer to activate. Power has a light penalization when stopping (a great penalization if he bumps into something). Movement is restricted when using the power. His direction/position is visible
- The blight: Movement is restricted when using the power. Movement is heavily slowed down when exiting the power. His direction/position is visible
- The wraith: Power takes longer to activate. His power goes fast, but not as fast as the rest of this list. Exiting power is 2-phased with an slow and a fast phase. His direction/position is partially visible
- The legion: Cannot down survivors with power. Movement is slowed down on power exit. Their direction/position is visible
- The nurse: Her power is really hard to manage and can be heavily disrupted by breaking LOS. Slow speed at all times. Terribly slow speed a few seconds after exiting the power. Clear indications of her position and direction
- Spirit: Her power is not visible. She is not visible when using the power. She can go pretty fast while using it. She has no penalization when exiting the power. She has no movement restriction. She's not so hard to use. She can down using her power.
Spirit is the result of taking only the good attributes of the rest of mobility-based killers and putting them into a killer. Even best because all the killers stay visible at all times, except the wraith who is only partially visible.
Spirit debate reminds me of Pyramid Head debate. It's not even whether PH/Spirit are hard for survivors, it's that they're way better than similar killers. PH used to have no penalization for preparing the projectile, while similar ones like The huntress do have this penalization. PH was basically a more powerful huntress and that doesn't make a lot of sense. Thing is, PH was easy to fix, while spirit needs a full remodelation instead.
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The only one there that's remotely similar really, is the Wraith.
Yes, he has a charge up and charge down animation (which is made up for by a speed burst after uncloaking), but Spirit also has a charge up, so it's just the charge down that's missing.
Wraith can use his power at any time, for any duration, but Spirit only gets 5 seconds without add-ons, and spends 75% of the time without her power available to use. This is the main reason why Spirit isn't at the top of the kill table, and why, despite all the cries from survivors to nerf her, its perfectly possible to escape from her and do just as well in a match against her as pretty much any other killer.
The next most similar killer after Wraith, is probably Nurse. Yes she's harder to master, but once you learn to account for the fatigue state, she is relentless. Her power recharges so fast, its just blink after blink after blink. Spirit doesn't get that, and no amount of practice will allow you to gain that much pressure with her. If you can successfully dupe her once, her power is gone for 15 seconds and she's a 110% M1 killer for that time.
That's her counterplay, duping her mind games, making her miss a hit when emerging from a phase. Do that and she's impotent.
Losing the ability to rely on mindgames, however much, is what would improve the experience of going against her. Her loop mindgames are such that the longer she just stands there, the more likely she is to win that mindgame. Limit it to 3 seconds, and she can't rely on it.
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Ok, so what your saying is that I went to far in the opposite direction? Whereas Spirit right now gives arguably too little information on when she is Phasing, this change would give too much information right? That's a fair point. I honestly was just trying to come up with some sort of indicator that would let Survivor's now she is using her power.
So what about the Scratch Marks, in your opinion, would give the Survivor too much info? Is there anything in particular you think the Survivor shouldn't be able to see/figure out?
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Well currently you can tell if spirit is phasing fairly consistently by her animation but you could also just actually make her shards shine properly and obviously or maybe even make her shards retract or something if you want to make it even more clear but I think just directional sound ques while she is phasing would be enough.
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Oooooh! I gave your post a read and I got to say that I kinda like that idea. I wonder though if completely shutting off all sounds from Survivors might be a bit too much? What I would be worried about with your change is that since both sides have no sounds and no visuals (if the Survivor doesn't run) on where the other side is located, it would truly become a 100% guessing game for everyone. Even if the Spirit Passively Phased into view and saw the Survivor, that only occurs every 2.33 secs and I assume it would only last the briefest duration. Would that be enough to locate a Survivor and catch up to them with the nerfed speed and somehow land a hit?
But back to your reply. When you say that the Shard Trail gives a little too much info, what specifically are you worried about? As for the environment sometimes blocking out the Shard Trail, I thought that would be balanced out because those same environments could block out Survivor's Scratch Marks while Phasing. Lastly, I agree with your point that both the Survivor and Spirit should get information when Phasing, and that's what I thought I was suggesting. It's not exactly the same kind of and amount of information, but while the Spirit gets constant audio information from Survivors, Survivors get constant visual information (although slightly delayed) from the Spirit. What would you change to make this better?
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Really? I thought that the animation change was a debunked myth. Is there something in particular that cues you when a Spirit Phases?
Also that would be a nice and simple change! Although what worries me would be that while you know the Spirit is Phasing, you would still have no idea where she is. As I understand it, one of the main problems with Spirit right now is that good Spirit players can use the audio from Survivors to get an almost exact location, whereas Survivors get nothing. Do you think that directional sound ques (cues?) would be enough for Survivors to get an accurate idea of where the Spirit is?
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Its not super consistent but you can do it fairly easily if she is trying to do the "do nothing mindgame" which is why I say i'd be fine with making it an actual intended mechanic instead of it mostly just being the product of wonky animation interactions
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I don't know if I agree with that 1st point. I don't really think that her power could be considered a "stealth power." Don't get me wrong, you are undoubtedly right about the fact that it has stealth components, but the stealth component of her power wouldn't be completely removed by including the Shard Trail (at least in my opinion).
Let's do some math real quick. If the Spirit can move at 7.06 meters/sec while Phasing (at default), and there is a 0.5 sec delay before the Shard Trail starts appearing in the environment that the Spirit has Phased through, then that would mean that even if a Survivor was perfectly tracking the Shard Trail as it appeared, the Spirit could still be about 3.53 meters away (in any direction) from the latest cluster of Shard Trail. While this would give the Survivor a definite idea of where the Spirit has been, I don't think a Survivor could definitively know where the Spirit is in real time. That would (in theory) open up the opportunity for mind games, because the Survivor must guess what the Spirit is going to do, based off of how she has moved while in Phase moments before. What do you think of this?
Also, I really like that idea of the husk fading after a short duration! Would the 3 sec "Husk duration" start when the Spirit starts charging her power, or would it start after she begins moving while in Phase? The reason I ask is because the math says that at default speed for 3 secs, the Spirit could travel roughly 21.18 meters before the Husk fades. That's almost the entire default Terror Radius of the Spirit. Wouldn't that be too much of a head start?
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Oooooooooh. Ok, I gotcha! I have heard something along those lines. I've heard it's more consistent than the Shards appearing on the Spirit's Husk, but hoping for a cue that only happens some of the time can actually misled you though. Your waiting for the animation "twitch" thinking the Spirit isn't Phasing, when she very well could be barreling straight towards you.
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This is a neat line of thinking! I didn't consider comparing her to the other killers. And I think you have a bit of a point here. Spirit definitely doesn't have as many immediate penalties while/after using her power like most of the killers you listed but I think there are two aspects of the power that you may have not considered.
1) The Spirit can't afford to use her power for both map-mobility and chase ending like most of the other killers(at least in my opinion). Due to her requiring a completely charged power meter, if she uses it to transverse the map, she doesn't have it for chase and vice versa until it completely recharges.
2) Even if the Spirit dedicated her entire power to map-mobility, she actually doesn't get that far at base kit. As 7.06 meters/sec * 5 secs = 35.3 meters, that means a default Spirit traveling in a straight line can move a little farther than a standard 32 meter Terror Radius; and then she would incur a 15 sec cooldown where can't use her power for anything else.
Now of course, both of the above points can be mitigated with add-ons, but the negative aspects of the other killers could also follow suit. At least in my opinion, the Spirit's power was designed to be used primarily in chase, and has a secondary situational use for map-mobility.
Do you agree with this or disagree?
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I think you have touched on a very valid point. While the Spirit doesn't have her power, she is just a 110% M1 Killer. This is what makes bad or even average Spirits much easier to deal with. If they consistently misuse their power, then they are essentially a slower, powerless Wraith, which makes them generally easier to deal with.
However, I think there is a flaw in your logic. First of all, "duping a Spirit's mindgame" has less to do with how a Survivor plays and more with how the Spirit plays (in my opinion). A Survivor constantly offers up audio information about their location (unless the run Iron Will) and can only change positions without leaving Scratch Marks by walking. If a Spirit player has a decent understanding of tracking via sounds, that combined with her inherent speed and invisibility means she can win most mind-gameable scenarios. She will either hit immediately after exiting Phase or will exit Phase close enough to be able to land a hit shortly later. Secondly, a Spirit doesn't have to use all of her power in any one given Phase. If she uses her power briefly, even for just 2 or 3 secs, that 15 sec cooldown is cut to something like 6-9 secs. So even if a shorter Phase doesn't result in a hit, the Spirit can generally recover fast enough to make another attempt before the Survivor can make it to a safe loop.
These two things together are what can make Spirit really unfun to go up against. If the Spirit player is slightly above average, can track via sound, and uses their power in short bursts, the Survivor can generally do nothing in terms of mind games or consistent counters.
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Wraith is still somewhat visible while using his power, which spirit is not. Of course it's possible to escape from her, it's possible to escape from any killer. As it was possible to escape from old PH, but he still needed some adjustments. "It's possible to win" is a poor argument when discussing mechanics, because it always is. It was possible to win against old brand-new-part (insta-repair a gen), It was possible to win against an old-old mori (the one which didn't require any hooks)
It's just that she's both unfunny to play against and low risk - high reward.
Nurse is actually good as an example and you won't see so many complaints against here because:
- Nurse need a lot of skill to master, if a nurse kills me I ack that she's really good, with spirit... She has good headphones, possibly.
- Nurse power is still both visible and counter-playeable (by breaking line of sight)
Your counter-play suggestion is making her fail the hits. Making a killer fail a hit usually includes Dead Hard, some random turns and 360s. You cannot use any of this techniques against a killer you literally can't see, and even if you could, 360s/turns don't work unless the killer has low framerate, plays with controller, and/or it's completely new to the game. And DH's 0.5 seconds invulnerability is not suitable when you don't know when she will attack (and skilled killers will play around DH anyway). The counter-play to the wraith it's actually the same to any other killer, mind-gaming(with data, not rolling a dice like with spirit), just a bit harder.
I agree, that's why I said spirit needs a huge rework to be fixed. I don't know the solutions I just stated the problems which are two.
- Playing against her is like playing dice, no info just guesses. That is something your proposal attempts to fix
- Her power comes free while similar powers do not. This is harder to fix. And it's due to the fact that her power is to be used in shot bursts, so she can't be punished each time she uses it or she would become a ######### killer. But not punishing her makes it a bit unbalanced too. This isn't as bad as the first point though
I also failed to consider the cooldown time but I don't think it's that relevant. 15 seconds are not that much in a chase and that's providing she doesn't wear any add-ons, which is weird for killers to do.
Spirit is a hard one and I expect devs and/or community can come with a solution, because randomly guessing with almost no data is not only unfair, but terribly un-enjoyable.
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The thing with my rework is now it truly is a game of whos able to outplay who with the little amount of information both sides receive, instead of The Spirit having a massive upperhand. With the glimpses I also wanted to recreate the same feeling as Old Freddy did while transitioning a survivor into the Dream World
As for your rework, The Spirit during her PTB was actually able to be tracked with sound, not only was the woosh sound to indicate she was phasing directional, but it could also be heard while in the terror radius. You could also hear her breathing directionally. And people back then deemed Spirit as "High Risk, Medium Reward". I have a feeling that giving survivors a full on visual on what The Spirit is doing might bring this back OR make it even worst.
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