Do you consider walking backwards as Legion an exploit?
If you don't know what i mean, there is something with Legion where if you walk backwards or look away, you break the chase with the survivor and can track them while their mend timer goes down, this will force the survivor to either be forced to go down or let the killer hit them. Some people call this an exploit, others say otherwise. Quite frankly i would like to see a debate in the forums do you think it's an exploit and should be addressed by the devs? Or do you think it's an effective use of the killer and should be left alone.
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It's messed up doing that, but hey, it's the most efficient way to down survivors with them.
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In a way, looking away from Survivors to prevent chases from being initiated is as much an exploit as Survivors running in front of an AFK Killer to trigger a chase and farm the points.
In both cases it comes down to the fact that running in Killer FoV = chase, and running not in Killer FoV = not chase.
Even if you're mid-chase, the game will decide, even if you're actively chasing or being chased, that the chase has 'ended' just because they were outside of your line of sight or stopped running for just long enough that it counts as a 'chase lost/escaped', or because they were too far away for the game to register it - that alone can turn some window loops into infinites on slower Killers because windows will only be blocked if vaulted three times in a chase, not if a Survivor is spam-vaulting it outside of a chase.
What BHVR should do is make it so that if a chase is initiated by running while in the Killer's FoV, it will not end unless the Terror Radius is escaped or a Survivor is x metres away from the Killer, under some conditions.
My idea is as follows;
Chase Start - Survivor sprints while in Killer line of sight, or Killer hits Survivor.
Conditions to keep chase - Survivor still sprinting while within 16 metres of the Killer.
Chase Lost - Survivor stops sprinting for 5 seconds while outside of Killer line of sight, or Survivor travels beyond 16 metres of the Killer.So basically the chase is started as normal and the only way to lose the chase is to stop sprinting for a few seconds while outside of the Killer's line of sight (ie, Killer moonwalking), or the Killer immediately loses the chase if a Survivor goes beyond 16 metres or something.
I originally thought 'beyond Terror Radius' but then Monitor & Abuse would work on Legion to circumvent it, so I decided to make it a static distance.
Then again, this '16 metres' range thing would be sporadic when it comes to Nurse - she would basically instantly Iridescent her Chaser and Survivors' Boldness due to the distance they can make from her while she's fatigued.My idea seemed good to me off the top of my head, but now that I've explained it there seems to be a few problems with it. Maybe BHVR can take ideas and change the Chase mechanic altogether with it.
Post edited by Judgement on4 -
If it's ok for survivors to gen tap it's ok for legion to moonwalk you to your death.
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Remember folks, survivors can gen tap, pallet loop, and block the legion from jumping over pallets some are reporting but how dare the killer break chase and stalk them like an actual killer would.
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I don't really care if it is.
If it's allowed, i'd probably do it if i find it effectve and/or fun.1 -
Considering the devs state they'll change it if it becomes the norm... Yes, ab-#########-solutely.
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No. It is not an exploit. It doesn't break any of the games rules and won't be punished if reported. You can call it many things. "Cheap", "Not Fair", "Not Fun", "Uncounterable", "Boring", "Poor Design", etc, etc, etc. But you can't call it an exploit.
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@Mc_Harty said:
Considering the devs state they'll change it if it becomes the norm... Yes, ab-[BAD WORD]-solutely.please post where they stated this exactly?
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@AlexAnarchy said:
please post where they stated this exactly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AauEJmetASo50:37
McLean "We are aware of players that figured out how to follow players without triggering chase."
Cote "We've seen that. Obviously if that becomes... you know, it's always weird because then you'll go, 'oh, that was not the idea' and if this becomes the one way to really make the... then we're gonna make changes to make sure you're not gonna moonwalk towards people to make this work"
McLean "Because we do like when people figure out cool ways to do things we didn't think about. But if it becomes the only way-"
Cote "-Then its kinda dumb."
Post edited by Mc_Harty on12 -
Cheesing a weakness in sloppy chase mechanic programming? Yeah I think it's exploiting. I'm for changing the Legion to make him decent. It's silly to be able to down someone in a chase by not even looking at them. I mean, at least give me a ######### mirror with an accompanying animation so I can look behind me. THEN.. I'm all aboard.
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Maybe BHVR can take ideas and change the Chase mechanic altogether with it.
In the dev stream where original concepts for Legions were presented it was also said that one of the original ideas for Legion was to have another stalker type of killer.
To me it seems the mechanic to intentionally let survivors go and following their "trail" out of chase is left of that original idea.
But the way this currently works feels indeed like some kind of exploit because you always feel like you have to "cheat" the system to stay out of chase.
It should be possible to follow a survivor in the distance with him visible on the screen without triggering a chase.
Killers should not need to resort to "moonwalking" or "Blood Hound and look at the ground" to stalk efficiently with Legion.
So yes, another look at the current in game mechanics what counts a chase and how chase is intentionally broken by both survivors and killers may be needed.
For Legion a simple solution could be to give him a **"stalking stance" ** by pressing L1 or x.
When Legion enters the stalking stance with slower movement speed any ongoing chase is cancelled.
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@Mc_Harty said:
@AlexAnarchy said:
please post where they stated this exactly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AauEJmetASoSomewhere here if I remember right. I'll post the time slot later.
not gonna watch the whole thing for the answer but if they are actually gonna do that then they better make legions intended way of play actually work or they can just be asking why no one is playing legion, the same way they do for clown.
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I wouldn't call it an exploit, as the status counters the killers best interests. Affected and chase abandoned means mending right away. Affected and in chase grants no drawback for the survivor, so long as looping is possible the status has no bearing other than making additional hits required. At best killers are making the chase more difficult and creating a situation where dw can produce a satisfying result. If you can't lose a killer not even looking at you, the status isn't your main problem.0
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No more than I would consider crouch tunneling as Pig. :P0
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I think its fine, but every legion does that from what I've seen. And if they took that away they would have to make up for it with something else2
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Playing killer is an exploit also
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I think its funny, I havent been able to successfully do it, I always lose my prey .. but Legion is a buncha trolls anyway .. so im gonna play it troll-y until they fix it (the right way.)
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Exploit or not, it's currently the best and easiest way for them to get a kill if you don't play violet add-ons. This strategy is used by a lot of players who do well with them. I understand that it can be very annoying to play against. But if it was removed, it would require several buffs to balance out that loss.
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It's a cheese tactic and will be changed to terror radius. Nerfing Legion and buffing BT.
So don't cry after the change if you do it.
Wouldn't call it an exploit though
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I hope they DO consider it an exploit and fix it somehow. It's not fun to have to do it, it's not fun to have it done to you... it's just a temporary workaround for a piss-poor mechanic that folks have adapted to having to do in order to make this killer even somewhat functional. But I hope they look at the root cause of why folks are having to "moonwalk" and address Legion's inadequacies, not just take away the only viable tactic the killer has at the moment and leave them hanging in a Freddy-like stasis.
Folks playing Legion: "Man, this killer sucks..."
Those playing against Legion: "HaR hAr yOu SuCk! AdApT LuL!"
Folks playing Legion: * actually find a way to adapt, cheese and all *
Devs: "NoOoO nOt LiKe ThAt!"If the devs had worked on Legion before release post-PTB by taking into account the massive amount of feedback given by everybody during the PTB, folks wouldn't have to be pulling such a silly and annoying half-arsed stunt just to make them feel semi-viable. And since they've made clear that they've no intention of "rushing" out fixes and patches to fix broken killers (ala Spirit), "moonwalking" will likely continue for a good long while yet, because that's what one has to do. Plain as that. You wanted folks to adapt... well, there it is.
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It’s called playing with your food, and the devs have already stated that it is not an exploit. In fact, it’s a waste of time. If the killer were to simply chase the survivor and hit them outside of Frenzy, they would go down much faster. But hey, if you want to complain about living a few seconds more, then go for it.
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Not really,it's kind of the same if you were to follow a survivor with rbt while crouched to break the chase and let the timer to start going down. But definitely not how I wanna play him or face a Legion with that kind of playstyle
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@Detective_Jonathan said:
If you don't know what i mean, there is something with Legion where if you walk backwards or look away, you break the chase with the survivor and can track them while their mend timer goes down, this will force the survivor to either be forced to go down or let the killer hit them. Some people call this an exploit, others say otherwise. Quite frankly i would like to see a debate in the forums do you think it's an exploit and should be addressed by the devs? Or do you think it's an effective use of the killer and should be left alone.Moonwalk is a legal as 360 is, so it wont be fixed
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its ######### boring3
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this should definitely be counted as as exxploit and devs should do something about this asap
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@Kaelum said:
It’s called playing with your food, and the devs have already stated that it is not an exploit. In fact, it’s a waste of time. If the killer were to simply chase the survivor and hit them outside of Frenzy, they would go down much faster. But hey, if you want to complain about living a few seconds more, then go for it.yeah if the survivor is a potato and gets down by 110 killer
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@Mc_Harty said:
Considering the devs state they'll change it if it becomes the norm... Yes, ab-[BAD WORD]-solutely.The reason they said that isn't because moonwalking survivors is some sort of exploit. They said that because they don't feel like that should be the optimal way to play the killer. Which means they recognize that there is a somewhat fundamental flaw in the killers design if playing them backwards is optimal.
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@BACKSTABBER said:
Moonwalk is a legal as 360 is, so it wont be fixed
Wrong since 360 is easily countered which is why 360 isn't considered an exploit this isn't easily countered.
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@powerbats said:
@BACKSTABBER said:
Moonwalk is a legal as 360 is, so it wont be fixed
Wrong since 360 is easily countered which is why 360 isn't considered an exploit this isn't easily countered.
I actually can't believe there's some people that argue about 360ing being an exploit.
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@Dreamnomad said:
The reason they said that isn't because moonwalking survivors is some sort of exploit. They said that because they don't feel like that should be the optimal way to play the killer. Which means they recognize that there is a somewhat fundamental flaw in the killers design if playing them backwards is optimal.
- It's only an exploit on Legion. Every other killer is fine.
- They clearly stated that they'll change things if the moonwalking is the only thing that'll work with Legion
- The developers clearly stated that it was not an intended mechanic.
- It goes completely against the whole concept of using the hit and run play-style the legion has.
It's still an exploit.
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You don't need to look away or moonwalk. You can stare at them from a distance works too, which shows that its intended, as this killer is meant to stalk prey. If they get rid of that Legion will become trash
I can't count how many chases ended up not counting as chase and losing Bloodlust when u are right behind the survivor, the issue with Legion brings up this issue as a whole.
If they gonna fix Legion moonwalking they need to fix it for all killers, so u dont ever lose Bloodlust during a chase, just make it so in a killer terror radius
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@Might_Oakk said:
It's a cheese tactic and will be changed to terror radius. Nerfing Legion and buffing BT.So don't cry after the change if you do it.
Wouldn't call it an exploit though
changing too TR would be beyond stupid as survivors will then abuse the Legions TR.
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@AlexAnarchy said:
changing too TR would be beyond stupid as survivors will then abuse the Legions TR.
it would make Legion trash but it would fix the issue with other killers, survivors can cause the killer to lose bloodlust despite the killer is right behind them, its dumb as f
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@Someissues said:
@AlexAnarchy said:
changing too TR would be beyond stupid as survivors will then abuse the Legions TR.
it would make Legion trash but it would fix the issue with other killers, survivors can cause the killer to lose bloodlust despite the killer is right behind them, its dumb as f
I've yet to see killers moonwalk to get out of a chase since it's much more effective to simply back off some and not lose los.
Also if you're depending on bloodlust to catch someone you'e playing poorly at that point since bloodlust is a crutch in the end. If bloodlust pops and you take advantage of it great, if it doesn't pop you play normally.
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@Mc_Harty said:
@Dreamnomad said:
The reason they said that isn't because moonwalking survivors is some sort of exploit. They said that because they don't feel like that should be the optimal way to play the killer. Which means they recognize that there is a somewhat fundamental flaw in the killers design if playing them backwards is optimal.
- It's only an exploit on Legion. Every other killer is fine.
- They clearly stated that they'll change things if the moonwalking is the only thing that'll work with Legion
- The developers clearly stated that it was not an intended mechanic.
- It goes completely against the whole concept of using the hit and run play-style the legion has.
It's still an exploit.
No matter how many times you repeat yourself, won't make it true. Perhaps our problem is that we define the word exploit differently. To me, when you are talking about an exploit in a video game, you are referring to a cheat. You are doing something wrong. Unintended and wrong are two different things. We can all agree that they didn't intend for Legion to moonwalk stalk survivors. That, however, doesn't mean that it is wrong to do so. It is well within the mechanics of the game. No 3rd party software is involved. It isn't against the rules. Therefore it isn't an exploit.
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@Dreamnomad said:
No matter how many times you repeat yourself, won't make it true. Perhaps our problem is that we define the word exploit differently. To me, when you are talking about an exploit in a video game, you are referring to a cheat. You are doing something wrong. Unintended and wrong are two different things.exploit
verb
verb: exploit; 3rd person present: exploits; past tense: exploited; past participle: exploited; gerund or present participle: exploiting
- make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).
- make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand.
My definitions are fine.
We can all agree that they didn't intend for Legion to moonwalk stalk survivors. That, however, doesn't mean that it is wrong to do so. It is well within the mechanics of the game. No 3rd party software is involved. It isn't against the rules. Therefore it isn't an exploit.
By that logic, Infinites weren't an exploit as well. Just please stop defending broken mechanics. It's not going to go well for you.
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@AlexAnarchy said:
@Might_Oakk said:
It's a cheese tactic and will be changed to terror radius. Nerfing Legion and buffing BT.So don't cry after the change if you do it.
Wouldn't call it an exploit though
changing too TR would be beyond stupid as survivors will then abuse the Legions TR.
Do you play Legion? It would be far more difficult to abuse. If you are just standing around the survivor will mend. Right now survivors are defenceless I follow them to any pallet and they are helpless.
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@powerbats said:
Also if you're depending on bloodlust to catch someone you'e playing poorly at that point since bloodlust is a crutch in the end. If bloodlust pops and you take advantage of it great, if it doesn't pop you play normally.
It's not about depending on Bloodlust, its the fact that you can lose bloodlust when you are right behind them thats just dumb as f. you would absolutely need bloodlust on extremely loopable spots btw
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@Someissues said:
@powerbats said:
Also if you're depending on bloodlust to catch someone you'e playing poorly at that point since bloodlust is a crutch in the end. If bloodlust pops and you take advantage of it great, if it doesn't pop you play normally.
It's not about depending on Bloodlust, its the fact that you can lose bloodlust when you are right behind them thats just dumb as f. you would absolutely need bloodlust on extremely loopable spots btw
Well unless you lose los you won't lose bloodlust and losing los is the only thing survivors can really do to keep a killer from just nailing them. I would like to see some slight tweaks on bloodlust though perhaps the longer you've maintained it ie stage 2 it takes longer to decay.
For instance you get pallet slammed or just stop to break the pallet and say you're at bloodlust II, the pallet breaking should drop you to I. Then you should have 1-3 seconds to establish los again ie be close enough for it to count.
If you do then you don't decay out of tier I and instead keep it charging up towards tier II. This has many benefits, slower killers don't lose so much ground but also people won't tea bag or play so risky. Because they're going to want to get far far away.
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@Might_Oakk said:
@AlexAnarchy said:
@Might_Oakk said:
It's a cheese tactic and will be changed to terror radius. Nerfing Legion and buffing BT.So don't cry after the change if you do it.
Wouldn't call it an exploit though
changing too TR would be beyond stupid as survivors will then abuse the Legions TR.
Do you play Legion? It would be far more difficult to abuse. If you are just standing around the survivor will mend. Right now survivors are defenceless I follow them to any pallet and they are helpless.
and give them the ability to abuse the legions TR and it will be the exact same issue from when the devs tried too make the survivor not lose any timer if the killer camped the hook they was on, the very fact someone would even post making it TR based is warrant for suspicion and worry,
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DW timer shouldn't go down if you are in a chase OR in the killer's TR. Then this wouldn't be possible.
That said I don't think it's really the optimal way to play the killer and I believe that after some time counter play will emerge, especially if a lot of Legions are doing it. I've seen this many times before, a game comes out or something new is added, someone finds a way to cheese it, everyone cries "BROKEN", 6 months later no one does it because counter play was discovered. Sometimes this stuff takes time. You could have 5k hours and be the best DBD player in the world, doesn't mean you will immediately figure out new features. Come back in like 3 months to see if it's still a problem.
Also the video posted was green ranks, those survivors didn't seem very good.
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@AlexAnarchy said:
@Might_Oakk said:
@AlexAnarchy said:
@Might_Oakk said:
It's a cheese tactic and will be changed to terror radius. Nerfing Legion and buffing BT.So don't cry after the change if you do it.
Wouldn't call it an exploit though
changing too TR would be beyond stupid as survivors will then abuse the Legions TR.
Do you play Legion? It would be far more difficult to abuse. If you are just standing around the survivor will mend. Right now survivors are defenceless I follow them to any pallet and they are helpless.
and give them the ability to abuse the legions TR and it will be the exact same issue from when the devs tried too make the survivor not lose any timer if the killer camped the hook they was on, the very fact someone would even post making it TR based is warrant for suspicion and worry,
Ya man that makes sense lol /s
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Its more cheesing the mechanics of the game than a hard exploit. Survivors have no issues going for 360's and ######### everytime though so they can't really say anything.4
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@powerbats said:
@BACKSTABBER said:
Moonwalk is a legal as 360 is, so it wont be fixed
Wrong since 360 is easily countered which is why 360 isn't considered an exploit this isn't easily countered.
Neither are exploits. Both are just ways to play the game, which the devs haven´t thought about.
Both can be countered.
BTW, nice survivor bias. Calling killer things exploits and survivor things easily counterable.
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I wouldn't call it an exploit but it's certainly bad game design.
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Here we go again with the defence.powerbats said:@BACKSTABBER said:
Moonwalk is a legal as 360 is, so it wont be fixed
Wrong since 360 is easily countered which is why 360 isn't considered an exploit this isn't easily countered.
A 360 is as cheesy as moonwalking. You might find it easy to counter but there are obviously many youtube compilations making fun of players who don't know how to counter it. Some of them made a name off 360s alone. It wasn't intentional and its just cheesing the ######### mechanics of the game.
Not surprising though that its all perfectly fine but when killers start to cheese the system then it becomes an issue that needs to be addressed.1 -
@powerbats said:
@Someissues said:
@powerbats said:
Also if you're depending on bloodlust to catch someone you'e playing poorly at that point since bloodlust is a crutch in the end. If bloodlust pops and you take advantage of it great, if it doesn't pop you play normally.
It's not about depending on Bloodlust, its the fact that you can lose bloodlust when you are right behind them thats just dumb as f. you would absolutely need bloodlust on extremely loopable spots btw
Well unless you lose los you won't lose bloodlust and losing los is the only thing survivors can really do to keep a killer from just nailing them. I would like to see some slight tweaks on bloodlust though perhaps the longer you've maintained it ie stage 2 it takes longer to decay.
This is wrong btw. Bloodlust has been bugged like forever. I can chase someone around a single car on autohaven and lose Bloodlust.
But i think Bloodlust should be completely removed. It was a bandaid to solve the looping issue. But it´s doing a poor job. Non looping survivors get punished and looping survivors don´t get affected by it.
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@thesuicidefox said:
DW timer shouldn't go down if you are in a chase OR in the killer's TR. Then this wouldn't be possible.That said I don't think it's really the optimal way to play the killer and I believe that after some time counter play will emerge, especially if a lot of Legions are doing it. I've seen this many times before, a game comes out or something new is added, someone finds a way to cheese it, everyone cries "BROKEN", 6 months later no one does it because counter play was discovered. Sometimes this stuff takes time. You could have 5k hours and be the best DBD player in the world, doesn't mean you will immediately figure out new features. Come back in like 3 months to see if it's still a problem.
Also the video posted was green ranks, those survivors didn't seem very good.
It will probably get "fixed" by a patch. Not an exploit, but the devs already called it a dumb thing to do. Sooo i imagine that they´ll do something about it. After the holidays.
But i´m curious about the statistics. Since thats the only way to play Legion on a lethal lvl. Those stats would show that he´s in a pretty good spot and therefore only requires the removal of the moonwalk.1 -
half of all survivor mechanics are exploits so i don't really care
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@Tsulan said:
But i think Bloodlust should be completely removed. It was a bandaid to solve the looping issue. But it´s doing a poor job. Non looping survivors get punished and looping survivors don´t get affected by it.Make looping less viable and remove Bloodlust. I am all for that idea.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onnqvEMn9lM
