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Are Hex totems even viable any longer?
It seems that Hex totem builds aren't viable any longer with boon totems being a thing, the totems being brought into a match with the current boon totem meta, are basically just begging to be cleansed (or stopped from working permanently through the bless mechanic).
What do you people of the fog think?
I think bringing the boon totems into the game has brought an unfortunate intensified focus on totems, which really hurts hex totem builds, and the killer can't do anything against it, the only thing one can currently do is not to bring any, but that really does hurt killers who rely on hex totems to have a strong build or counter against certain survivor strategies. For instance countering gen rushing with Hex: Ruin is basically out of the question.
BHVR, please do fix this mess you've made with completely ruining using hex totems, by implemententing survivor boon totems.
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The thing is that boon totems didn't actually do that much to harm hexes- they already only lasted a minute and a half at most, and they've been in that spot for a long time.
Hexes weren't killed by boons; they were already flatlining when the boons walked in. I will say, though, hexes have never been fully required for a viable build, they just have some of the strongest effects- there are perks that fulfil the same roles as any given hex that can't be disabled by the survivor. Except for perks like Blood Favour or Huntress Lullaby, I guess, but those aren't typically ones that people run.
It would be nice to see hexes get some love, though they'd have to be careful with how- they rightfully don't want hexes to be too oppressive.
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That really does depend on the match though, and what hexes have been brought. And with boon totems now being a thing, it just means whatever chance they had of actually being left untouched during a match, has been diminished to an almost certainty that they will be taken out during the match.
They don't want hexes to bee too oppressive, but they want the boon totems be exactly that, otherwise they wouldn't have made them the way they have. Plus, what the hell is up with them only providing the killer with an option to soft counter it, while the survivors can outright hard counter any hex totem - It's just more of the same awful survivor sided bullshit, sure it's whats bringing them the most money, but without killers the game is nothing - they should remember what role the killers actually fill for the game - vital role, and it is supposed to be hard playing survivors, but obviously they want survivors to able to bully the killer around and make it a laughing joke!
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I think really they just need to fix totem spawns/eliminate survivors spawning within x meters of a totem or within LOS of a totem/don't let a totem be in plain sight right next to a generator. (And I would say this rule needs to extend to dulls now too with boons existing.)
Then you could also consider making lullaby a bit better.
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I don't think this will fix it, first step is to make bringing boon totem perks just as risky as bringing hex totems - meaning making killer able to do both cleansing and hexing totems, that's the only way it can even make it remotely dangerous to bring boon totems. It absolutely has to be just as risky to bring boon totems, problem just is, that the killer has more than enough to deal with than to go hunt for boon totems. Also, with how they're making the meta so survivor-sided, obviously they want the survivors to win and the killer to lose, and it also means that the game's title really has lost all of it's meaning. But BHVR will never start to correct the overly survivor-sided "mistakes" they've made, because it's what keeps all of those casuals and competitive tryhards forking over tons of cash for comestics and DLCs, and if this is not their reason for making the game so heavily survivor-sided, guess it just means they're exceptionionally biased and shouldn't be making a 4v1 game.
Boons really should not stack, it's should be a single effects for each, just like hexes, and most certainly not give such insanely overpowered (greatly imbalanced) bonuses and abilities that basically means they're getting free extra perks, which the killer have no way of actually replicating or compensating for.
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Boons and hexes aren't the same mechanic and comparing their counters like that is a recipe for just getting mad unnecessarily.
This mechanic is supposed to be interactive for both sides, and if it worked it'd be an excellent addition. Instead of being weird about accusing the devs of a bias, best to focus on how to fix this mechanic.
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Oh boons absolutely need some changes, yeah. I was just focusing primarily on hexes for that post.
The biggest problem right now I'd say is that despite how strong circle of healing is, snuffing a totem is often not the correct play for the killer to make, putting them into a lose-lose situation.
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Accusations or not, bias or not, they do keep adding things that just make it much harder for killers vs. survivors - and this is the way this boon system works currently and in relation to totem mechanics, it certainly does make it seem like they are biased. Why is the killer not be able to hard counter boon totems, when survivors are able to hard counter hex totems - they use the same totem system so why have they made it so killer can only soft counter - That's the survivor-sided bias right there. Sorry if this distracts from the discussion about to how to fix this, but it's just so lame that they keep on doing this.
Anyways...
Hex & Boon systems are different mechanics, but they use the same underlying system - the totem system, which is why it has such a devastating effect to hex totems builds and strategies. Since they use the same totem system, they're using the same inherent totem mechanics, so even with them being different mechanics on their own, they definitely have some inherent commonalities, like the interest from both survivors and killer to use them, but should both sides really be able to use them them? I think it's important to remember the role that totems have been so far for for the killer - a passive help for killers to complete their objective, because the killer is only one player and is against 4 players, hence the need to be able to have something being done automatically. But now the 4 survivor players can use the very same totems, which only endangers the killers game play, because the killer cannot use the same totems, and now even have to struggle keep them of using it because the killer can only soft counter it. But since the devs believe the survivors should be able to use the totem system, and thereby endangering the intended role hexes are supposed to have for the killer, it's necessary to make the killer able to choose between either cleansing or hexing a totem - which obviously will cause some issues. The need for stacking boon effects comes from the problem with being able to select which boon to bless a totem with but also that they're more who might want to use them , and it would be the same issue for the killer - being able to select which hex activate on the totem would be a problem.
- Boons should be a single effect - just like hexes.
- Boons should not stack - just like hexes.
- boons should only provide reasonable bonuses, not like the the ones they do now.
- Boons should not offer both abilities and passive bonuses.
- Boons should not offer perk benefits that there is a perk for as it would render it unnecessary.
- Boons should not be able to be placed on a hex, and a hex should be able to be placed on boon - only cleansing is an option if you want to get rid of ether a boon or hex. This way it forces either side to sacrifice a totem to stop the other.
I think it should be considered that any one that has a boon perk or hex perk can create a certain amount of totems in areas suitable for hex (typical spawn location) or anywhere suitable on the map (if the game can support it).
It should also be consider to rework boon mechanics, so instead of emulating perks and passive bonuses, that they instead could provide something more unique and much more thematically fitting, like for instance provide a new resource like mana which could enable spell perks to be implemented, or that they provide the creator of the boon a benefit while it lasts, such as a passive bonus or an ability. Instead of being something that makes all survivors be able to get it all.
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So! Let's take a look at the intended mechanical function of hex perks, and the intended mechanical function of boon perks, so we can understand why this reasoning is flawed.
Hex perks: Very powerful, map-wide effects that directly interact with the core objective. Hexes (with a few exceptions, but that's more because hex perks have been around longer and had more experimentation) are for either slowing down generator progress, or helping win chases quicker, which are the killer's core objectives. Hexes don't give you break speed increases, for instance, because that's not a core objective for the killer, it's just a side bonus. To balance this, they spawn randomly on the map and can be disabled at any time by the survivors.
(As a brief aside, hexes are kind of in a terrible spot right now, which is worth mentioning when it comes to balance discussions. Half of the current problems with boon perks are caused by boons themselves, but the other half are caused by hexes already being weak.)
Boon perks: By contrast, while the effects are (ostensibly; some hexes are weak as hell and some boons are stronger than others) comparably strong, they work completely differently. They provide non-objective utility buffs in a limited area, to help the survivor evade or heal back up if they're not actively being hit within its radius. The balancing for these is a little more nuanced, at least in theory- survivors have to spend time setting it up, which means they're not doing anything else that might actively progress the game, and the killer can choose to snuff out that boon to make them waste even more time setting it back up again or the killer can use the boon as bait if they're stealth-inclined.
So with this understanding of what the perks are designed for in mind, what conclusions can we draw? Well, the first is that some boons are way too strong- and by "some", I mean Circle of Healing, it's far too powerful for the mechanic as it's designed. Shadow Step is pretty much ideal; CoH is far too strong, Exponential is almost certainly going to be pretty weak in realistic terms, but Shadow Step gives you a utility buff that requires you to risk the killer finding your totem mid-chase and snuffing it out after you're downed.
Another thing we can conclude is that your suggestions are wrong simply because they're trying to mash two only conceptually similar perk types into functioning the same way. There's supposed to be a back and forth where the killer leverages pressure gained by downs to go snuff the boon that they were just looped around, and the survivor team has to make the choice between actively progressing the game or going and setting the boon back up, even further complicated by the need to go for saves as well. If your suggestions are implemented, boons would be an incredibly stale and underwhelming mechanic.
I'll conclude with what I think much better changes to the boon totem mechanic would be: Adding either a cooldown after a totem is snuffed or a bless speed debuff for that specific totem so that the timesink aspect of the mechanic is emphasised even further, making it so that boon totems can't have enough verticality to affect both floors of a multi-story map, having certain hexes like NOED or Plaything snuff a totem to make room if they have to, changing totem spawns so there aren't any weird finnicky totems that the killer has to waste way too much time getting to, and finally... nerfing the hell out of CoH because it's a beast of a perk.
The idea behind boon totems is extremely good, we should be trying to make it work instead of completely abandoning it.
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They are unviable, not because of boon totems, but because of their bad spawn locations and RNG-spawn. Open totems spots, and a possibility of survivors spawning right onto them makes them super bad. Sometimes they spawn so far away, but right near survivor spawn, that i dont have time to interrupt the cleanse even if im heading there as fast as i possibly can. This is complete bullshit, they should never spawn near location of survivors. But BHVR probably dont plan to fix this any time soon.
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Whichever is flawed really depends on the approach and what aspects you choose to include, where it's obvious that yours does not include very important aspects, such as how it actually detrimentally affects the killer's time and game play. Also certain situations you're bringing up, are highly situational.
Let's also review a couple of things, which should be considered.
- The implementation of boon totems should give rise to revisiting how hex totems work and how the work in relation to boon totems that also use the totem system, in other words, they should be reworking (adding functionality and features) hex totems. Simply because hex totems was never designed with it mind that survivors should also be using the same totems the hex totems use. IF hex totems are to remain viable, there is definitely a need for hexes being able to be reactivated due to the intensified focus and incentive for survivors to be looking for totems.
- Boon totems inherently conflicts with the balance and viability of hex totems, because they use the same totem system, hence why there is a need for killer being able to have the choice between cleansing or reactivating a hex totem. This part is especially important for strategies and builds that use hexes, so at least the hex user can decide if they want to sacrifice these totems to more permanently for the match affect the boon totem users. Also, the cleanse action for the killer should be around the same time it takes to break pallets.
- The incentive to be looking for totems is even higher now with the implementation and focus on bringing more boon totems into the game, which most definitely hurts the viability for hexes being used altogether, and there is nothing you as killer can do about it, and the killer can't even stop survivors in the same they can stop the killer from using the hex.
- When boon totems are able to re-lit, it only really makes sense for hex totems do be re-lit as well.
- Hexes are High Risk, High Reward. | Boons are Low Risk, High Reward, but it should be just as risky to bring boon totems into the match as hex totems are. So either Hexes are changed into a Low Risk High Reward situation, or Boons into a High Risk High Reward situation. A way to solve this would be to make killer able to choose between cleansing or reactivating a hex totem.
- Survivors in a match can be completely SWF, and thus most likely is communicating through VoIP services - meaning they can easily communicate to each where totems have been found - this isn't something new, but it's an aspect that definitely should be considered as well, as it makes it much easier for the survivors to find totems altogether. Even if finding totems takes time and can be tricky, Small Game helps with this.
- There are 4 survivors in a match, it only requires one to setup a boon totem, in theory it means only 3 can be working on a generator when this happens, but this is really just a minor set back and in most cases there won't even be 3 working on a generator at a time.
- There is only 1 killer, but 4 survivors, having 1 do boon totems won't set back the survivors that much, where as the killer is having to continuously keep hunting these boon totems down and snuff them out, affects the killer's time a lot more than it does the survivors because the killer is only one and thus can only do one thing at once, of course the individual situations affect different and it may not be that obvious there can be situations where it really does hurt the killer's time.
- Snuffing out totems takes a few seconds but that action don't mean much when it will up again seconds later, depending on the situation, it can have quite bad consequences for the killer. So definitely blocking it from being used would alleviate some issues, at least temporarily, and just as long as when they're blocked they don't conflict with hex totems activating on such a totem.
- Boons adding abilities to the survivors is basically giving free perks (much improved versions of these), which the killer has no way of replicating or compensating for or really handling in any meaningful way and the more who're getting these perk abilities and bonuses, the greater the imbalance. Mind you that, it only requires one survivor to run these boon perks, but everyone in gets their benefits while in the area of effect. Look below for more details..
So perk balance between survivors and killer can be summarized generally like this.
- The intended balance is for the difference to be 0
- 1 survivor can bring up to 12 perk levels, and 4 survivors can bring a total of 48 perk levels.
- 1 killer can bring in a total of 12 perk levels, these should be the equivalent of 48 perk levels due their strength (but really isn't)
So if a survivor decides to bring two boon totem perks both at tier 3, it's the equivalent of 6 perk level, which is only a loss for the individual survivor when not gaining the effects of those. But the other survivors who're getting these could be up to 3 other survivors which is the equivalent of 3x6 perk levels = 18. Basically this means, the boon totem perk user loses passive bonuses & abilities with the worth of 6 perk levels, but still has access to them locally, but the rest of the survivors gains the benefits as well. This is what I'm talking about that the killer has no way of replicating, compensating or handling in any meaningful for way. These benefits should be the equivalent of what was lost taking into account that boon totem user actually still can gain their benefits, then divided by the max amount of survivors. Hence why I mentioned the parts below here and in the other post.
These below parts are meant as in a way to better balance boons and hexes:
- Boons should be a single effect - just like hexes.
- Boons should not stack - just like hexes.
- boons should only provide reasonable bonuses, not like the the ones they do now.
- Boons should not offer both abilities and passive bonuses.
- Boons should not offer perk benefits that there is a perk for as it would render it unnecessary.
- Boons should not be able to be placed on a hex, and a hex should be able to be placed on boon - only cleansing is an option if you want to get rid of ether a boon or hex. This way it forces either side to sacrifice a totem to stop the other.
You may think this view is flawed, but what is flawed, is to bring in something that uses the same totem system the has been a dedicated aspect to help the killer complete it's objective, this boon system only endangers the killer's use of the totem system. Hence why there is a need to at the very least to make them similar in terms of balance. Speaking of balance, mind you that there are 4 survivors but only 1 killer, so it's imperative that whatever boons are given are slight benefits, as these are given to EVERY survivor in the area of effect of a boon totem. This is why Boons should not stack and should not provide both bonuses and abilities, and the reason they should not be giving abilities that basically is a different perk, just makes the use of that perk obsolete to some extent.
You think the idea behind boon totems is extremely good, but the real issue is the it's endangering something that has been a dedicated aspect to help the killer complete it's objective. So while the idea might be good conceptually, it's inherently flawed and definitely not suited for the game, UNLESS they rework and improve hex mechanics and the game play associated with it, including reworking and rebalancing boon totems in relation to it.
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Only with thrill and undyng. Boon are Op and needs nerf, people Are searching more for totem now. Hope they nerf boon and pentimento works. I'm starting not playng killer and switch to survivor. They will lose more and more killer. Doubt rushing only new antigenrush perk will help them a lot, cause boon and second chance perk needs a nerf now, or really fast.
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Yes, this exactly where it's headed, less and less people want to actually play killer, because it's getting less and less fun for the killers. But it's no wonder, they keep implementing things that just causes problems for the killers without actually adding good enough counterplay against it. CoH certainly is prove of that, but there are so many survivor perks out there that actually has little to no counterplay against it, Even looking and base mechanics and lack there of you can see how survivor sided the game play meta is. Just to name one at random - the game has no stun protection mechanic, so the killer can literally be stunned over and over.
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I agree, I hardly see hex perks in killer's builds anymore. What's even worse is that Ruin + Undying combo has a huge bug right now that causes it to do the complete opposite of what you want it to do (Undying being cleansed will disable your Ruin and your ability to kick gens on all gens that have progress on them). Makes running Ruin even worse, killing Hex perks even more.
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Let's be honest. For the company the fun of 4 people is more important then the fun of one. 4 survivor will buy skin, and play with other friends showcasing their skin (survivor have no power, skin make differs them), invite them to play and make them want to buy other skins. Devs want to make new survivor experience and bad survivor experience better, making them addicted and have people who buy cosmetics. The rest is secondary. Bugs, cheaters, bad optimization. They have no competitor so no need to rush. Make dlc to not make the game dyng in interest, pay their salata, and having people talk about them and start gaming cause big linceses. They know their game is not competitive or balance or fair. They take Years to fix bad Op unfair stuff. And swf are in ego heaven, the only fun experience.
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I know all of this, and the worst part of it, is that it's actually true. Because if it were the opposite, they could've fixed so many things. Yep they care more about making $$$$ than they actually do about the game and the actual player experience, they just want what gives them the money.
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I'm honest surprise how you can buy yet things with shards, cause now tgey have a large player base and it Is not a necessity. Maybe they know that with few bad steps player base can drop by far and matchmaking lobbies can be longer than 5 min genrush game lol. However the problem is that game is only good for swf. Killer is fun, but gen flys (they are making finally mamy new perk vs gens, so admit the problem and confirm gen regression meta is the better viable killer strategy), and too much second chance + Op survivor stuff to rob you games. And solo survivor is unfun because zero chance of communication, so misunderstanding that became strange bad plays that make lose the game, and egoistic one (cause bad design mmr will to survive even if not play for teammates and have fun, and cause you are not mu friend, I dont know you... Nobody will Be angry at me if I make you die for make me escape, not everybody bodyblocks for example). For these reasons swf is Op, cause they can play way optimal then solos and abuse stuff, even if they are worst player they have strengh of group. They play a differnt game like nurse.
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hexes are still viable, but over the time there have been more and more anti hex perks added into the game.
boons don't necessarily counter hexes. This could lead to survs looking for totem more often and finding your hexes though, which you could count as an indirect counter possibly.
there also have not been many hex defense perks and the ones we have gotten that helped hexes have been nerfed or changed.
regarding the "their not the same thing", they kinda are except boons are meant to be able to be re-used and hexes not. that would be a whole other mechanic entirely. i would love to a penti type perk that allows hexes to be rekindled. (with tokens reset to 0), by random and therefore would not work with penti itself.
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