Are Killers Actually Punished for Camping
There's a lot of players on these boards that say Killers get punished by camping by not getting Kills. It seems like a majority believe that camping will net you on average, about 1 kill, while the other 3 survivors escape.
Since I like date, I thought I would test this hypothesis by doing 10 camping-killer games a night and showing the data I got. (There is 1 caveat, if there is a hatch escape without all 5 gens being done I count that as a kill. So far I've only had 1 of these happen).
Here's my data for night 1. I am, of course, playing Leatherface.
As you can see, as a camping-killer, I'm getting on average about 3.3 kills a game. I don't really feel like I've been punished at all for camping with kill rate of 82.50%.
(I'll add 10 more games tomorrow night for more accurate stats and will probably get up to about 50 games, depending on if I can handle the boredom).
***12/27 Edit***
As promised, I did 10 more facecamping Bubba games. I really despise doing these type of games, it definitely feels dirty to me. Anyway, I've tried some Corrupt Intervention and Bitter Murmur. I kind of like both. Bitter Murmur gives me a chance to NOED 2 survivors at the end of game.
Comments
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The punishment is absolute and mind numbing boredom.
43 -
You are only really punished by losing points for being in close proximity. It's not really a punishment if the survivors don't do gens or suicide on the hook.
9 -
Sure, if everyone immediately links brains through the hivemind and pumps gens with the ruthless efficiency of something really really ruthlessly efficient they might only get 1 kill.
But usually (especially against solos), you can count on everyone winning the game for you by launching themselves straight at the hook and throwing the game to try and save.
But that's player agency.
17 -
That's because too many survivors will throw themselves at the hook when the killer is camping. Means no gens are getting done and the killer is getting free damage.
25 -
It doesn't get punished, because survivors feel secure making unsafe unhooks.
In theory, camping should not be effective. It's entirely on the survivor team to see that bear fruit, though.
12 -
It works.
Because most survs don´t do their gens as they should. And that is totally their fault.
Therefore it is a very solid strategy. Even if it is boring.
23 -
Do gens lol
13 -
yes but not in a way that discourages those who don't care.
1 -
Is it truly desirable game design to say "you have to spend this game holding M1 and any deviation from the script will get you killed?" I'll do it, but it's about as entertaining as an AFK killer would be and it's not the content I play this game for.
Not to mention that in solo queue - the intended state of the game and the one they actually balance it for - the "don't get destroyed by a facecamping Leatherface" requires all four players to be in sync without having the tools to communicate or persuade, or one player will go and ######### it up for the rest by running for the save and getting added to the carnage, or suiciding on the hook so nobody gets gens done before Leatherface captures his next victim.
I can think of half a dozen reasons to camp off the top of my head, but this kind of camping - where camping is the killer's entire strategy and they never leave the hook once somebody is secured - isn't healthy for the game and it shouldn't be as effective as it is.
Look at the OP's build. It's not AGI/IG/Insidious - it is very effective at buying Bubba enough time when the survivors are doing what they're supposed to be doing. The Deadlock forces some of the survivors to run around and leave mostly-completed gens for barren ones, which will regress with Ruin after Deadlock expires. ToTH + Ruin makes finding and cleansing the Ruin a 50-50 shot and another time diversion survivors can't afford in this scenario - even just Ruin presents this diversion, because you really don't have time for totem hunts in this situation and especially not with Deadlock hindering you.
Solo queue doesn't have the coordination to mitigate this. The only hope is that your teammates are strong loopers and they make their one chase count.
8 -
You really just have to break off the good loopers and chase someone else. I've had some really good loopers keep me busy a couple of the games. I also had a flashlight survivor team that I thought was going to be a 4 man escape.
Not to mention I'm not really good with Leatherface. Just started using him for this data. I'm also using a Tier 1 Deadlock, haven't gotten the tier 3 Deadlock yet. (1st 3 games I didn't even have Deadlock)
2 -
I don´t get the point.
As killer you likely start camping when you realize there are strong loopers in the team. Because you know you probably won´t catch them.
It would be dumb to chase too long and throw the game. That is the way the survs want you to play.
And i am SoloQ - Kindred is base kit. A camper mostly screws us.
But i don´t complain. When i play killer and try to camp because the team is too good, they often manage to unhook anyways. (i was not Bubba in that case)
4 -
You're only punished for camping if the survivors recognise you're not going to leave the hook and as such, they decide to sit on generators instead of trying to save, or maximising each hook stage.
0 -
Yeah survivors can escape, even if killer makes a perfect camping game. End chase fast, protect hook from unhooking perfectly, end next chase fast and protect hook..yet two survivors can escape on the back of a perfect camping game that is bad game design. In football you can play defensive and get a point against the best teams that would have murdered you if playing offensive against them. In this game you get murdered even if you make a perfect defensive game in high MMR which means camping needs a buff yes?
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Killers only get punished for camping against organized teams. Most SQ teams will be altruistic before the end game but escape after, not even accounting for the gen inefficiency.
2 -
No, 2e and 2k is the desired outcome for the perfect game. According to numbers - fun doesn´t matter. (and thats why mmr fails)
0 -
No, they don't get punished enough.
Even for the survivors that escape, they will most likely depip and almost get no points and just wasted 5 mins pressing m1.
10 -
Survivors being too altruistic to do gens because "UGH I NEED MUH HEAL POINTS FOR MY EMBLEM" is their fault, not the killers. Killer should never be punished for camping and hopefully never will, since every attempt has failed when it becomes clear survivors just wanted a new avenue to use against killers. Instead of demanding punishment, which is bad game design, why not suggest INCENTIVES to not camp? The killer wouldn't camp if that wasn't the best (and in some cases only) way for them to score kills. "Punishing" them just see's more killers quitting and your queues getting even longer. In the future, try thinking of ways to INCENTIVIZE certain play instead of trying to punish players for legitimate tactics.
12 -
Lol the old do gens to counter it. Even if if the other 3 survivors split up and do gens separately, they cant complete all 5 before the person dies on hook. Thats why people try to save because if they dont it's a guaranteed 1k and you kind of got to test the waters on how good/bad the killer is at camping.
Some killers just swing right away (survivor faking unhook to not get grabbed) and then swing at the bt, these are the not so good campers. And i expect people to try and save unless it's a camping bubba especially in basement or theres active noed and only 2 people left, one on hook.
Problem is not everyone runs bt/ds and not all camping killers are bad at it.
2 -
All games as Bubba? That would skew your results a bit, as not all campers play Bubba, and it's common knowledge that his camping is several orders of magnitude stronger than any other killer. You will have to get your MMR on Bubba very high before you meet the teams that just loop you infinitely and bang out the gens before you get a hook, but if you're as inexperienced with Bubba as you say, and you keep playing him, you -will- meet those teams.
EDIT: That's if MMR is still active, many people on the forums have been sharing their suspicions that it is not.
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Entirely up the survivor team as is everything in this game. What II mean by that is lets you go on a crazy chase that lasts 3 minutes and you finally go down. You see the gen count is at 5, 2 players are breaking totems and your third is rummaging in basement chest with zero gen progress done. What statement is true? The survivor team didn't take advantage of your amazing chase time or is it that killers aren't punished enough for going on long chases?
I would argue the same is true here, if the survivor team doesn't know how to react properly to a killer camping then yeah there's not a punishment at all but if the 3 remaining survivors slam gens then there is for sure a 'punishment'.
3 -
Well for games I played and seen survivors are extremely altruistic so when you keep having those guys why would you not camp cause you know the others try to save them which leads to kills
0 -
I've seen some teams play correctly and I feel like I'm pretty consistently getting around a 3k average on teams that play correctly. Deadlock/Ruin and NOED even things out a lot.
The teams that are the worse, so far, are flashlight teams. I've had the worse luck against them. I've had some teams doing double-flashlight saves and you can't really counter that as Killers. Hats off for that type of coordination, they deserve the save, coordinating those.
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Your point being? I know perks can help and some team make ups can make a difference depending on the set up. I'm just pointing out that if you know the team is altruistic as ######### why sweat the other stuff and make them work around you instead of it being the other way around.
2 -
A camping killer just wants engagement in the concept of the game, bro. A lot of survivors take it way to seriously and focus on 4E more than anything else. It's the reason this forum is full of so many whining survivors because when they actually come up against tactics that they can't 4E they just aren't smart enough to cut and run.
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So, a few things:
This sample size is not adequate to actually prove anything in relation to either the number of actual players or circumstances even broken down into the length of a one session per day. You won't generate enough data points to show a proper trend or extrapolate an average in a meaningful way until you played many sessions.
Counting hatch escapes as kills under any condition is faulty test logic as that is an escape. You can not under any circumstance alter the meaning of a basic function just to suit your end result in research. That is an issue with a lot of people trying to generate data points for this game, making up rules to suit their taste rather than letting things be what they actual are and counting them as such.
DBD has a high variance of skill levels and game understanding that is difficult to account for. If you don't generate the data points necessary to at the least catalogue the relative "rank" of the players then your data set could be skewed more towards players with less playtime and overall skill making bad decisions leading to kills.
It's very irksome to constantly see people run their own "tests" even at a level that is considered high level to generate data, but they make up house rules that only serve to suit the outcome they want from the data or will just make for a poorly handled data set in general.
7 -
I thought this was a writing exercise about how we can contribute as little as possible to the thread while demonstrating obvious, incendiary bias via extremely narrow, anecdotal assumptions.
Did I get that wrong? :(
3 -
You should see their comments on my Dead Hard thread - Le Cringe.
Best not to engage at all, champ :3
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I think most players don't actually know what to do when a Killer is camping and they just become altruistic stupid. It's just Survivors being stupid that's all. That's like saying Cenobite is overperforming against potatoes lol.
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Oh, no, my dude. I've seen his comments before, that's why I wanted to try writing like him. But after just one attempt I've discovered that that kind of sheltered naivety is just not for me, even if it so effectively triggers the people its intended to trigger. My self-respect demands I avoid it :).
But I'll go catch up on that thread since it's been a few days. For the luls.
2 -
Fun for the survivor isn't the killers job its on the devs for bad design and trying to patchwork it with perks. Also, it's pretty ironic to say killers are whinning about playing the game how it's supposed to be when you are trying to tell me that it's their job to make it fun for survivor.
Honestly since I keep people constantly defend that a pvp game shouldn't be a pvp game is pathetic because actual problems such as balancing and the numerous bugs are getting neglected just to make the game "fun" which is subjective as ######### especially since whenever it is brought up it's the survivors fun that matters not the single one becoming a goddamn whipping boy due to the shifty balance.
Also I know someone is going to say it but "fun" should be the result of good balance, a community that doesn't feel like an embarrassment and a reason to play other than it being the only option it its genre.
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Also funny how I made this post and immediately got a camping LF afterwards.
Teammate become altruistic stupid
Got out with two though.
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Yeah the punishment relies on the survivors not being potatoes. If they all die due to altruism instead of just doing gens, they deserve it.
4 -
Camping is effective because most survivors feed kills. Most players, especially solo survivors, when they get camped they will wiggle and let themselves die. This then lets you chase and down and camp someone else. Then this repeats over and over again. Most survivor players have zero patience and won't hang then struggle so the team can do almost all the gens before they die. Plus, people try to save, instead of doing gens hard, then they get downed and slugged and so on. It ain't the game's or the killer's fault if people feed camping killers more kills.
Like I know solo survivor is rough and that some killers camp and just play mean, but this game is already hand holding the survivor role so much. What more do people want? At this point, the only thing that is going to make people happy is if BHVR adds a bot to play killer that is programmed to only chase.
3 -
Objection! Hatch isn't really an escape either, it's just a coinflip on who's closer first (and even the devs worked that one out so it doesn't affect MMR).
So a hatch escape goes from 4K-0E to 3K-1N-0E.
If a Killer gets someone whilst the hatch is out, they'd (probably) have got them going for a normal escape; but a hatch escape doesn't mean you'd have activated the exit gates and got out.
1 -
And half the Survivors completely ignore that they reward camping by failing to do gens, and instead camp the hook and then cry and screech about how 'OP camping is' when the Killer does not walk away like they demand.
3 -
Typically the survivors are going to make the mistakes to reward the camp regardless of their party composition. It can theoretically be punished if everyone knows what to do. It's rare that anyone knows what to do.
2 -
No because camping is an intended play not an exploit.
If behaviour didn't want camping hooked survivors would be removed from map or unhooking a survivor would teleport them away. The emblem penalty is for hard face camping. As in standing perfectly still exchanging eye mucus when no survivors are around.
You can't punish people for an intended play as any punishment is easily exploitable. The core mechanics would have to be changed.
7 -
You say this like those complaining about camping CARE.
All they care about is this little thought process:
Is Survivor Hooked?
If Yes: Is Killer near the hook?
If Yes: Hide near hook for 2 minutes instead of doing gens, then screech on the forums about how OP camping is, and demand Killers be punished/banned/flogged for 'camping'. Because Killers should have to 12 hook every match. Also; Gen speeds are fine; Git Gud, Killers.
4 -
There is no semantic argument here
You did not kill them and the entity didn't do the dirty work for you as a result of ECG.
If the survivor went down the rabbit hole, they escaped the trial. You can't have it both ways where the final survivor simultaneously escapes and somehow still counts towards the data in favor of Killers.
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Same could be said for 4k killers lol
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It shouldn't count as a kill, but it also should either count as an escape for all balance-related purposes or none. Hatches are just their own thing.
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Killers also complain about ds and bt, hmm wonder why these are perks, oh yeah camping and tunneling maybe if killers didnt do it nearly so often survivors wouldnt need these perks. Also kind of silly they're not basekit, camping and tunneling is basekit lol.
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No and they shouldn't be.
1 -
why would there be a built in hard counter to a specific strategy?
4 -
I'd be more asking if those perks are for tunneling and camping why are survivors now deploying strategies that encourage it more?
BT, DS and COH now made those two survivor complaints even more viable nowadays.
1 -
If you want to get pedantic for a moment, escaping through hatch has a specific scoring event called Hatch Escape.
It's a separate method of escape. I don't understand where people are getting this notion that hatch is some sort of weird not a kill but also not an escape thing.
5 -
Eh, facecamping is a problem and BHVR have already said that they want to make a mechanical change to discourage it - however proxy camping is entirely legitimate and they agree.
However:
- Your sample size is tiny and not really illustrative of anything.
- Yes, Leatherface is really good at camping. That's...about all he's good at though.
- Camping is about as much fun to do as it is to go against. If killers are resorting to an unfun style of play, that probably indicates that other approaches do not feel consistent enough.
- The mileage you get from camping depends entirely on your opponents. It'll wreak havoc on an uncoordinated group, but can backfire hard against a good SWF.
10 -
tbf, bhvr has said that hatch escape counts as null for mmr gains.
But I doubt BHVR's kill rate stats are counting hatches as anything other than an escape.
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It works because, believe it or not, there are actual people behind survivors who may feel bad for a teammate being unable to play due to a massive overlook in the game design.
When I am in that situation I will normally try to save my teammate, it will cost me the match but I will still try because it is the decent thing to do, it is not about winning, it is about trying to give a person the chance to play the videogame.
It is beyond absurd that camping and tunneling are still in the game, especially with bubba or trickter bypassing even BT
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I want to address the landslide of 'survivors just try to get the unhook on a camper!' comments: Those unhook attempts aren't even needed to make camping work.
Even for a facecamper, a team of solos can lose a ton of time. Imagine you're on a gen, and someone gets hooked on the other side of the map. You stick to the gen because you assume someone else will get the unhook. But that bar is starting to deplete and there's no rescue. You figure another teammate might've gotten caught while attempting to rescue, so you move across the map to try to get the rescue, and then you find out the killer's camping. You can move to the nearest gen, but you've already lost ~30 seconds. As did the person who went for the rescue first. And the last member of your team as well.
You don't have that kind of time to spare when the killer is facecamping because the timer on that is only 120 seconds. It's a problem that survivors need to invest time to identify camping, when camping requires survivors to waste no time on anything other than gens.
And then there's the absolute classic: Camping the NOED. Because if your team is slamming gens, they sure as hell aren't doing -ALL FIVE- totems. Free kills galore.
Camping isn't always neatly counterable. Especially in solo play. It is a way bigger problem than killer mains give it credit.
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