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Thoughts On Nuking the Meta

Pulsar
Pulsar Member Posts: 21,012
edited February 2022 in Feedback and Suggestions

Simple idea.

We nuke all meta perks. We then evaluate base-game mechanics that need to be updated and re-balanced. We stop trying to fix issues with game design by band-aid fixing them with perks.


This will make everyone happier. Why?

Firstly, because if we nuke all the meta perks, this will promote more perk variety. Nobody likes to see Pain Resonance, Corrupt, PGTW, DMS ect every game. Nobody likes to see DH, DS, BT and CoH every game. These are examples, not the only things being nerfed.

Secondly, this will allow the Devs to look at the base-game issues. No Survivors enjoys being tunneled or camped. We might understand that it's necessary, but it's not enjoyable for anyone involved. No Killer enjoys seeing gens fly and structures chain together so perfectly, the best advise anyone can give is, "Yeah, just don't chase there." By destroying the perks that mask these issues, we can finally make a game where there is a punishment for camping/tunneling because there's not a need to do so. Likewise, we can do something about gen speeds and problematic loops/maps.

Lastly, because of power creep. Every single meta perk (on both sides) is kind of bonkers busted OP. I'm talking absurdly good. No perk is ever going to beat out Dead Hard. No perk is gonna beat out CoH or DS. The issue is that any perk that actually challenges the pre-established meta is FAR FAR FAR too strong, see Circle of Healing.


tl;dr destroy the meta, fix game-design flaws that weren't apparent in 2016, more perk variety, more viable perks, people have more enjoyable time

Post edited by Rizzo on
«1

Comments

  • RainehDaze
    RainehDaze Member Posts: 2,573

    You're going to have to be more precise than "nuke". That could mean anything.

  • egg_
    egg_ Member Posts: 1,933
    edited February 2022

    How and why would you nuke BT?

    I agree for everything else. Nuke all perks, survivors and killers

  • SuzuKR
    SuzuKR Member Posts: 3,910

    So, do you have actual suggestions on how to rebuild the gameplay style ground up?

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 21,012

    Destroy. Obliterate.


    In non-funny terms, nerf it until its in-line with the majority of perks

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 21,012

    Why?

    Because something like that should be a base-game mechanic.

    As for how? Make it 2 seconds, added on to a base value.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 21,012

    I meant to also talk about how we'd actually have to define "meta". I'm tired and I forgot.

    I think a lot of people's issues with the game come down to fundamental design errors. Things that made sense when the game was hide n seek but don't really vibe with a action slasher game. Things that should've been fixed, but were instead marketed as perks.

  • Gamedozer7
    Gamedozer7 Member Posts: 2,657

    Perks are probably one of dbds biggest issues.

    First is that alot of what should have been base kit has been put into perks

    Second is the first combined with only 4 perk slot.

    Perks should modify the the game not hold 1 of 15 game mechanic but you can only let you use 4.

  • SleepyWillo
    SleepyWillo Member Posts: 2,197

    If they made hooks work like pyramid head cages you could effectively delete DS and BT and it shouldn't matter...

    Would love to see a good shake up but don't think I'll see it in my lifetime.

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 16,434
    edited February 2022

    So you want BT to be a base mechanic which gives 2 seconds Endurance? This would just buff camping.

  • RainehDaze
    RainehDaze Member Posts: 2,573

    That, every time it comes up, is a garbage suggestion that forgets that Killers need to be near hooks when they happen to have any kind of pressure. Not every unhook being risk-free and perfectly safe.

  • landromat
    landromat Member Posts: 2,193

    Meta should be nuked every patch to keep game fresh If perk becomes too popular - change it

  • anarchy753
    anarchy753 Member Posts: 4,212

    I'd love it. So many meta perks are way overdue for nuking.

    And it should somewhat even out, you weaken some of the top meta stalling perks, and suddenly the "I need 6 extra hits each game" perks are less necessary, and vice versa.

  • Gamedozer7
    Gamedozer7 Member Posts: 2,657

    Whoa rule 341 clearly states the killer must stand in a corner after hooking a survivor(assuming there isn't a survivor with a flashlight in which case refer to rule 339) and allow them to unhook.



    BTW rule 339 is you must allow a survivor to flashy shave if close by.

  • anarchy753
    anarchy753 Member Posts: 4,212

    It's a large part of why I hate playing Pyramid Head. Wow, my whole power just avoids perks and flashlight saves that I'm already conditioned to avoid, and in return, the survivor is unhooked in roughly 3 seconds at the safest point of the map miles away from me and now cooping a gen I can't possibly reach.

  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 7,102
    edited February 2022

    I think he meant make it basekit for some amount of time, and running the perk would add 2 additional seconds to that

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 16,434

    Thank you, after reading that again I understand what he meant. You are right.


    @Topic:

    In general, changing the Meta would be nice. I would love to not have to run Perks like BT or DS, however, removing ALL Meta-Perks by adding them somewhat into the Basegame will not really work IMO. For this, the game is far too old and reworking the current state to such an extend would take a long time and I am pretty sure that BHVR does not want to spend this time

  • Carrow
    Carrow Member Posts: 500

    The last thing SoloQ needs right now is a BT/DS nuke. Imagine if it didn't even take a minute to tunnel the first survivor out.

  • HectorBrando
    HectorBrando Member Posts: 3,167

    Not a bad idea but the sheer amount of work needed to remake/prune a lot of outdated/problematic mechanics is just too much to tamper with the code, right now there are several game mechanics way too ingrained into the game for them to be able to fix them just with patches and without alienating almost everyone playing.

    If they were to attempt something like this the only option would be a DBD 2 or something like that, you cant get rid of camping/tunneling, looping, heavy RNG maps and certain other stuff without creating a ton of problems unless you start with a new brand blank slate, in other words a new game.

    The problem is not DH or Ruin or CoH or Nurse or SWFs, the problem is what lead to those things existing and being neccessary, the real problematic stuff is at the core not at the outer layers, those are just a symptom.

  • Zozzy
    Zozzy Member Posts: 4,759

    What should be done and what will be done are very different. These devs take 3 months to change a 2 to a 1 on a perk so good luck getting this done over another nea cosmetic.

  • MikaelaWantsYourBoon
    MikaelaWantsYourBoon Member Posts: 6,564

    It depens what will happen after nuking meta.


    If they stop tunnel, camp, genrush & infinite loops yeah people will probably like it. I am sure survivors would use more meme perks if they would not need BT & DS. Same for killers, i don't think killers are enjoying with slow-down perks but they need them.


    But what about BHVR? We all know they are so slow to fix issues. I mean just look cheaters and grind issues. Both issues affect all playerbase and they still did not fix. Just "soon". So if same scnerio happen, this probably will kill game.

  • Nathan13
    Nathan13 Member Posts: 6,738

    DS does not need anymore changes, it's so easy to play around and it's non existant if you don't tunnel. DH does need a nerf I agree with that. BT is fine.

  • Nathan13
    Nathan13 Member Posts: 6,738

    the main priority should be the grind and cheaters, everything else comes second to this.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 11,757

    I wouldn't really like that, tbh.

  • Nun_So_Vile
    Nun_So_Vile Member Posts: 2,442
    edited February 2022

    Just nuke the entire game and give us DBD 2 already.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 11,757

    Sure, but give whats left of this game to me.

    I can still fix it.

    I can save it.

    Yes.

    You get used to them eventually, and then it stops being a problem.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,576

    I think the game would be better off if a bunch of meta perks were integrated into the baseline of the game. DS as an innate anti-tunnelling thing for example, and innate CI so killers don't spawn in, run to the other side of the map, just in time to see the gen be finished before they could do anything about it.

  • Rivyn
    Rivyn Member Posts: 3,022

    Even if you could come up with an idea on how to nuke the meta, just how long do you think it would take for any significant changes to be made? BHVR isn't exactly known for their promptness.

    Though I'm for it. At the very least, it would let me see new perk combos instead of the same cookie cutter builds all the time.

  • SeannyD115
    SeannyD115 Member Posts: 583

    The devs would never change all the meta perks because that's how they balance the game... With perks. They also believe camping is a strategy.


    If it was up to me I would make kindred base kit, add some way of communicating in solo que, and have it so if a killer is within 8m of a hook for more than 15 seconds and there is not a survivor within 25m of the hook then the hooked survivor moves across the map or the timer stops.


    For killer at low mmr there isn't much of a problem with getting hooks/ kills with any killer but at high mmr it's the opposite. I would make it so at a certain level of mmr survivors get a side objective. This way they don't need to extend gen times since it would just get boring. This would help with the problem of only a few killers being viable.

  • GoshJosh
    GoshJosh Member Posts: 4,992

    Just no. Nerfing good things (not OP things) is never the way to go. Instead, buff bad perks to make them more appealing (cough cough.. unlike the recent Boil Over mishap). Make balance changes in the base kit and map design.

    And you definitely don’t nerf these things without the root problems being addressed first.

  • xBEATDOWNSx
    xBEATDOWNSx Member Posts: 636

    DS/ BT/ kindred in some form should be basekit.


    As should Sloppy/ NoED/ Jolt or Corrupt should, in some form, be basekit. Freeing those perks from the blood web would definitely breathe new life into the meta but how to implement the so it's balanced, I have no idea. Maybe NoED has a brief window (say 45 seconds after gens are finished) and DS has a short timer with all the changes it still has (20 seconds but doing certain things cancels it)


    I dunno but I do agree that something had to be done for both sides. Seeing the same perks every game is not fun. It's just easier to go into matches on both side and assume what perks your facing until proven wrong.

  • ShinobuSK
    ShinobuSK Member Posts: 5,279

    No

  • OpenX
    OpenX Member Posts: 890

    Bubba / Pyramid Head enjoyer here. What meta? You mean the 12 wasted perk slots that will never get used?

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,497

    I definitely think the current trend is absolutely not where the meta should be going. The slowdown/second chance meta isn't fun for either side. Survivors feel like hamsters running on wheels watching gens repeatedly blow up in their face, and killers constantly feel like the rug is being pulled out from under them at the last second multiple times per game.

    And it's silly because the problem is the map design. It has always been the map design. Nearly every killer power or perk they introduce is a band-aid to cover symptoms of bad map design. They haven't learned anything either. The Game and Eyrie Of Crows are ridiculous. They're fully committed to enormous maps with absurd safe tile counts.

  • OpenX
    OpenX Member Posts: 890

    Well yeah but then again the new killers coming out just hit you over every pallet anyways, so the massive amount of them probably isn't seen as an issue. I will actually send myself to The Game on some of the stronger killers because the 25 pallets don't even matter to them. Someone like Nemesis doesn't even get phased by that map.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 21,012

    No.

    The reason we never see a meta shake-up is because the perks that currently make up the meta are SO good that you'd be actively handicapping yourself by using something else.

    They need to be changed. The only perk in the last year that's been anywhere near meta for Survivors has been Boil Over (because it was abusable) and CoH because it was literally OP.

  • ryseterion
    ryseterion Member Posts: 445
  • fulltonon
    fulltonon Member Posts: 5,762

    They don't fix game even if you nuke the meta.

    Gens go fly, survivors gets camped and tunneled immediately right after hooks, game will end within 5 minutes.

  • illusion
    illusion Member Posts: 887

    First, I always think that it is better to buff rather than nerf. If we want more variety in perks, but the non-meta perks to make them worth using.

    Also, you can't nuke meta perks without addressing the problems that make people use them. You can't nuke anti-tunneling perks when tunneling is still a thing. You can't nuke perks that help against camping, when camping is still a thing. And you can't do anything about camping and tunneling, while gen rushing is still a thing, and kills is the only criteria a killer has for winning. Which also means you can't nuke perks that help killer with those things.

    The devs need to acknowledge the fundamental problems with the game and make a concerted effort to fix those first. Then they can focus on making the weaker perks worth using, so that people have a legitimate choice. I think that is much better than forcing people to use crappy perks by taking away the good ones.

  • fulltonon
    fulltonon Member Posts: 5,762

    It's something they didn't for... how much? I don't know how long it's been.

  • Yatol
    Yatol Member Posts: 1,960

    make perks side grades, the build with the less weakness should be the no perk builds

  • Nathan13
    Nathan13 Member Posts: 6,738

    I agree, can you imagine if BT and DS both got nerfed before tunneling and camping?? You would not see any survivors play the game anymore.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 21,012

    So what I'm seeing is that once again, 3 months between meaningful changes is far too slow.

  • fulltonon
    fulltonon Member Posts: 5,762

    Any survivors stops playing, BHVR has to change things but not in perks.

    This is fine.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266

    I always thought each DLC, a survivor and killer come with a single perk that actually a new mechanic added to basegame.

    Something like when Doctor added, every killer can kick Gen, but only him with the perk can kick Gen better.

  • Ghoste
    Ghoste Member Posts: 2,135

    Hate to break it to you - they are happy with band-aids in the form of perks. Because it's easier than addressing the actual issues. Also, it keeps people buying DLC for the latest band-aids. Some things will just never change.