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Spine Chill needs a nerf...
... In radius. 36 freaking meters is overkill for any killer, but it especially screws stealth ones. Now I know you guys are all gonna say that "it's supposed to screw stealth killers, that's what its designed for, duh!" but lets face it, 36m is 4m higher than every killers base terror radius, so it doesn't only screw stealth killers, it screws all killers.
"But you can avoid that by just not looking in the survivors direction when you approach"
Seriously?! First off, unlike for survivors, most of the perks used by survivors aren't broadcast or show up in a Hud prompt when they are being used against you! There's no way a killer can tell immediately that a survivor is using Spine Chill, and they only gain that knowledge if they approach one 3x and realize that the survivor knows they're coming. Also, that 30 degree cone of vision is a static 2D area of the killers screen and its far wider than you realize. The Ghost Face's reveal mechanic, which is a poor model since it can be blocked by your own character as well as the rest of the objects in the game, is extremely similar to this, but with 1 caveat: you have to take into account that the killers FoV is in First person! Their FoV is significantly smaller than survivors, and thus a 30% loss in it basically means that the killer has to keep their destination in the far left or right sides of their screens while approaching if they are going to avoid Spine Chill. Add in the fact that, unlike the Ghost Face reveal mechanic, nothing blocks this perks activation, and it will always activate regardless of what's in the way. Seriously, just open up MS paint or something like it, and make a 30 degree cone starting at the base of your screen, and you'll see why this is such a big deal! Imagine playing like this as a survivor, wherein the middle 3rd of your screen will reveal you to the killer as soon as you just graze it in their direction for the span of 36 meters, except it doesn't reveal the killers to you through notifications, so you get no information of if it's active or not, and it gives them movement speed or vaulting, and striking recovery advantages... yeah, not so fun for you is it?
Basically, I feel this perk should get a range limit of 24 meters at most or 20 at the least. That way you are in almost all killers Terror Radius's range, and still gain an advantage against stealth killers, just not as obscenely huge of one. For the sake of balance and fairness, I feel that 20-24 meters still gives you more than enough time to avoid a killer headed your way, and still screws over stealth killers, but not nearly as badly as it currently does. Let's not forget the added skillcheck "Bonus" to using it... Honestly for new survivor players this is a hinderance, but for experienced ones, it's a blessing and you know it! Having an increased skillcheck chance also increases your chances of hitting the Great skill checks, and Add in the fact that it also increases your action speeds for Repairing, Healing, Sabotaging, Unhooking, Vaulting, Cleansing, Opening, and Unlocking by 6% while the killer is looking in your direction... there have been whole survivor builds around this with that in mind, and it's obvious that this damn perk doesn't actually need 36 freaking meters to be effective, doesn't it?
Bottom line: Spine chill needs a radius reduction to 20-24 meters. This won't break it to the point of uselessness, but instead will balance it for the better regarding both killers and survivors.
EDIT:
For Balance here's the equivalent (parody) of what it would be if it were a killer perk, so you know what I'm talking about.
Spine Tingle:
Your heightened senses incur a biological response of excitement as you inherently feel the positions of your victims. When looking in a survivors direction within 36 meters, and keep them within your inner 30 degree cone of vision, Spine Tingle activates. You gain a 2% movement speed bonus while Spine Tingle is active, and when chasing a survivor gain a 2/4/6% strike recovery (both missed and successful), Breaking, vaulting, Pick up, Carrying movement, and hooking action bonus speed.
Spine Tingle has no cooldown, and survivors never gain any notification that it's active against them.
Comments
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Spine chill should only work if the killer is not "undetectable".
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You're right, and survivors should be replaced with bots and killers should get a juicebox at the end of each round with a pat on the back.
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That would defeat the purpose of it being a perk that counters stealth, and would give all stealth killers or stealth perks a major advantage. TBH, I'm not against a perk specifically designed to counter a power or perk on the other side as it leads to some fun in the decision making, but the current version of Spine Chill is a "wee bit OP" against all killers tbh, and it needs to be brought down a peg in order to be fair.
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I use it as survivor and honestly, I think it is a bit sensitive. I really only use it for that extra 6% percent buff to vaulting (it's very useful). I think 20 some meters would be a but too easy for me to know the killer is coming for me as opposed to right now I can't tell...
So I'd actually call that a buff with the distance. That's for me personally though. I can't speak for how others feel on it.
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And undetectable is a killer's built in ability, why should that be countered?
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Spine Chill is easily countered by looking slightly away from where you're going. The perk is fine and easily played around.
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It's only a killers built in ability for 4 of the current 27 killers (5 if you include Pig)! Lets not forget that current survivor perks like calm spirit (counters doctor, clown, spies from the shadows, infectious fright), Urban Evasion (counters Hag traps), and Blast Mine (completely counters Wraith while cloaked) and more exist. Having a perk that counters a killer power is fine, especially when it only counters a specific minority of them, because chances are you're gonna encounter much more of the killers it doesn't counter than the ones it does, and currently Spine Chill counters ALL OF THEM! With my suggested change, it still counters all killers, but only when they are close enough to actually have a chance at giving chase to a fleeing survivor, so what if it counters the stealth killers more? They're allowed to get MUCH closer to their targets before it activates, which gives them better chance at even starting a chase. Current Spine Chill doesn't do that at all, and outright defeats all killers, stealth or not, so I'm having trouble understanding why you are against this idea.
Actually... yeah, that makes sense. Spine Chill is meant to defeat the Undetectable status, so there's no reason it should also defeat the oblivious status as well. I like this idea!
Did you Even READ the Post?
Post edited by TWiXT on4 -
Status changes like undetectable or oblivious should have an effect on the perk.
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As someone who actively mains Ghostface
No it doesn't it only says when I'm looking at you not from where or how far away and besides who's to say I'm not chasing a teammate or behind you right now
especially when crab walking to a gen exists and also just hold stalk and whip the cam back and forth at a reasonable pace on no one knows your on them ready to down them
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Yeah I read it and told you my opinion. A good killer knows to look away from the area they're going to or risk Spine Chill which isn't a META perk and really isn't that popular among the non-META builds.
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Because it's not meta (which honestly, considering it's crazy OP nature should be), And because it never gives a killer any notification that it's being used against them, I still feel this change is justified. For experienced killers detecting it is a given, but for new killers it's kyptonite! There's literally no way they know a survivor has it, until they experience it enough that they can figure it out, but on average a decent killer can figure it out only after 3x the survivor completely avoids them, how is that balanced?! Even then Saying killers only have to look "slightly away" from their destination, is laughable when it means that, a killer who has already figured out that the survivor is using it, has to keep their destination in the far left or far right of their screen. This is bad enough for stealth killers, but to expect this from every killer is nuts!
Blight for example has no time or ability to just "Look away" from where he's going, and while 36 meters against him seems fair because he can cover the distance so rapidly, it's really not. I could go into the math about it, but basically he covers 36 meters in distance in 7 seconds, and it only takes a survivor .1 second to run or sprint burst away from their position. My point being that even if they had less warning at 24 meters, they'd STILL Have an advantage, just not as an obscenely large of one.
I hope you also read my Edit of the post wherein I created a killer version of this perk to match it's power and influence, and hope you agree that either this nerf needs to happen, or "Spine Tingle" needs to be added to the universal killer perk pool.
Post edited by TWiXT on0 -
Wait, I'm confused (please use commas)... Are you for or against this nerf/change Idea? Yes, it never tells a survivor the Direction the killer is approaching, but if it activates at all, all a survivor has to do is walk somewhere nearby, hide, and hope the killer doesn't look in their direction. For GF, he does have an advantage in that "IF" a survivor looks at him while he's in stealth, he gets a directional visual and audio aid, and even if they don't, if he uses his stalking power, he can highlight a survivor nearby, but, that's still highly dependent on the killer using their wits, and the survivor being smart enough not to look at him. As a Ghost Face player, I actually thought this idea/change would be something you agree with because it makes it slightly harder for survivors to know when you're coming for them, and gives them less time to hide when it activates.
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I am completely against it on the basis of its only effective against ghostface/Myers and pig and still the range and it beng directionless are the best points I have for it to remain the same.
Though the vault speed buff could go Though i hate that part specifically even when I used to use when I play survivor
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This.
I'm totally fine with this perk in general, but it should not hard counter Ghostface and Myers to the extent it does.
When your only response is a strawman, this generally means you concede the point.
For the most part, yeah.
For Myers and especially Ghostface, who rely on staring at survivors from a stealthed position, not so much. It's never nice having your entire kit blind countered by a single perk.
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ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Just based on the idea that it detects a killers approach "directionless" doesn't mean that the killer has any advantage when the survivor knows they are approaching! And from 36 meters, which is 4 meters beyond any killers TR, Stealth or Not, is Absurd! Not to mention that the only way the killer can avoid it is to somehow always predict that the survivors have it, and always keep each destination in the far left or right of their screen, even while chasing in order to prevent the vaulting advantage... I lost my train of thought because of how ridiculous of a requirement that is. The point I'm making is that it's current function is OP, and I'm having a really hard time as to why you, an admitted "Ghost Face" main, are so opposed to the idea of making it more balanced.
Dude... I'm not talking out of my ass here... This has long needed to be addressed, because it's an old perk that needs some modernizing for the current game. I just don't understand how you think that, as a Ghost Face player, it's fine as is. Honestly I'm Flabbergasted! (which is kind of fun because I never get to use that word).
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I know I i even said that the directionless was the only point I had for it's defense, I feel like it could be better if they maybe droped the distance to 15 meter at its max.
I feel like I might be biased in favor of spine chill since I used to use it a lot back when i started playing but yeah I can definitely see how it's a problem.
Definitely didn't mean it as a SpIne ChIll oK leave it AS is type of comment
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I upvoted your comment because I can literally feel the sarcasm without the aid of a /s (sarcasm) mark. While it's funny and deserves it's votes, it can also be said for survivor side. "Killers shouldn't be players, and replaced with bots, so everyone can have fun against easy, medium, difficult, hard, and Nightmare killers to prove their worth!"
I bet that sounds like a fun game to you, but unfortunately, this exists as a multiplayer game, and if you can't stand the heat, get out of the damn kitchen! Go play something that doesn't really challenge you with its AI, Like Legend of Zelda BotW, Resident Evil (take your pick), or Pokemon Go! ( at least you get some exercise with that one).
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There isn't anything wrong with Spine Chill and having it counter stealth killers is fine too.
The directionless part of it is the balance part of it. The amount of times it has saved my bum from the Killer is the same as the amount of times it has screwed me over as well. I thought a Killer was coming from one direction and ran off right into the Killers face and other times I though a Killer was chasing someone with how it was blinking and the Killer was actually heading towards me.
You say it hurts new players because they don't understand it it's true fot most games. I was accused of using a ESP hack by another Survivor because I always "knew" where the Killer was and ran before he got to me. I told him about Spine Chill and he was like What?!
Nerfing any and all Perks that are annoying but not too strong won't help the gamrle or it's balance.
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Hard counter to stealth is not a good design for sure, and some people rely on it too much.
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So then... you not only agree with my change, you also want to reduce it by 5 meters at the maximum? I'm sorry, your original response and following rebuttal of my response, made me feel like you were on the attack and were "Completely against" it. At this moment it feels like you are FOR my suggestion, but I can't say I've won you over, which is fair, as I endorse creative criticism, So by all mean tell me/let me have it: How does my suggested nerf/change negatively affect the game?
If it does affect it positively, and you can admit that, then acknowledge it and state why. I'm not trying to be a dick here and harass you with "I told you so!" antics, I'm a much better person than that. I have taken all of your messages with considerable consideration, and debated them against you for my end of the argument, but I never take any creative criticism without acknowledging it, and you have given me some insight for why people may be opposed to it, which will likely mean that I'll have to change it (hopefully for the better), and that's always what I've wanted from this community: good, strong, creative criticism.
I have faith in you, and where your heart is on this matter, but I still stand with my own beliefs, and have to hope that others can agree with them.
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I feel like I had worded my original and follow up poorly but yeah looking at it as is I definitely see what you mean
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I like you! (said in a gir voice. Reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cEBkEigNi4 )
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AWW MAN! this got moved to the feedback forum? NO ONES GONNA SEE IT HERE ASIDE FROM THOSE WHO ALREADY RESPONDED! LAME!
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The issue isn't that it 'counters' stealth killers. If it was a soft counter you could play around, that would be one thing.
The issue is that it completely breaks two killers in half, in a way that there is literally no counterplay for. Myers or worse, Ghostface into a Spinechill basically makes you into an M1 killer. It's not good design.
If this perk were made to not function when the killer is Undetectable would still retain it's core purpose as an early warning system that has counterplay, without causing certain killers to basically lose at the selection screen.
Blind hard-counters are never good design.
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If it were reduced in range to 20-24 meters, Both Myers, and GF could potentially still stalk a survivor from beyond that range. As it is right now though, that's simply impossible for them.
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I do agree with you there I was just making a statement is all. Here's a thought maybe keep the regular range but shorten it with Undetectable. Say 15m or so, that way it makes everyone happy. Killers can still get close with Undetectable and Survivors will still use it to give them a chance and not totally gutting it.
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That would make sense, but strikes me as too granular a change for BHVR. They generally don't like doing that sort of thing with survivor perks (DS took...years to change like this).
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No, It doesn't need a nerf, stop being dumb
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Yea but that's why we are players and they are Devs lmao. I get they need to crunch numbers and not make similar mistakes like with Boil Over and other perks they made too "good" Things don't need major gutting or nerfs to balance them. Small tweeks maybe all something needs to bring it up or down balance wise
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Not to mention, @VikingDragonXii 's suggestion also wouldn't help against any normal killer without stealth and their static 32 meter terror radius. With the change I've suggested, even if survivors hear the TR, they won't know if the killer is headed their way until the killer is within 20-24 meters of them. As it is right now, survivors get over 7.8 seconds warning total, and 1.15 seconds that the killer is headed towards them before the terror radius is even heard.
Post edited by TWiXT on0 -
You first.
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This thread is a good laugh. The purpose of Spine Chill is 2 fold:
- To prevent chases altogether.
- To let the survivor know that the killer is still chasing them when there are LOS blockers.
When I play killer, it is easy to know when a survivor is running it, so I approach them from an angle that they don't expect. Just pretend you are playing Spoopy Myers, and you'll have no trouble at all getting into chases and downing survivors. From what I've been reading, to many players have had it way too easy, and haven't really learned how to play the game.
Post edited by Kaelum on0 -
I think Spine Chill is perfectly fine where it's at now. I will only compromise it's nerf when Ghostface' reveal mechanic is fixed and his insta-stalk addons removed.
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If you can hear the terror radious, why do you need spine chill? That perk allow you to make a move before the killer comes. Once you are on the terror radious, the killer might be coming while looking away so you don't get anything from it, which is the workaround already suggested.
Someone suggested that it shouldn't work when you are oblivious, which is a great idea. Plus maybe nerf some of the buffs it gives to the survivor.
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What?
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killer mains have an issue with every single g dang survivor perk.
does anyone even use spine chill anymore? if spinechill needs a nerf, barbeque and chili does too
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And what about Myers? Take a moment to realize how it hard counters killers like ghost face and Myers who literally have to look directly at their victims and stalk them in order to get any usage from their power. Now add in the fact that this doesn't just hurt them, but all killers 4 meters before survivors even hear their terror radius, by giving survivors an excessive early warning that the killer is headed their way, while also giving them bonuses to their action speeds. I believe reducing the range to 20-24 meters from 36 is at best a simple compromise in all honesty, but obviously you don't, which says more about your bias towards it's currently broken nature, as well as your insistence keep it as is. Your only complaint is that GF has a bad reveal mechanic, and thus "This shouldn't get balanced until GF's Reveal mechanic is"... grow up. Admittedly GF's reveal mechanic SHOULD be better, and I've made previous posts about changing it from a 2d model to a 3d "Flashlight emanating from survivors heads" one to better balance/fix this, but the devs are pretty lazy, so that suggestion is likely to never be implemented, but even if it was, I doubt you would still think that my suggested balance change to Spine Chill would be justified, and that makes me a "sad panda" (southpark reference).
You called me "Dumb" while obviously not even reading my post. So I asked that you stop being "Dumb" first before engaging in the conversation. It was a simple jab at you for being ignorant, with the intention of getting a more profound response, which sadly, hasn't happened yet, but we'll get there eventually, I believe in you!
Hearing a Terror Radius is one thing, knowing that the killer is looking in your direction while you hear it is another piece of information entirely, and I'm certain you know that, but are purposely feigning ignorance! That so called "work around" that's been suggested? I've already explained why that BS time and time again both in the original post and in follow up comments, so please read those since I'm so VERY tired of repeating myself. I do like the idea of it being defeated by Oblivious, since it's meant to defeat Undetectable, and having it defeat both is overkill tbh, but that alone is not enough in all honesty. Considering it's overall POWER regarding information and the advantages it provides to survivors, I feel that a simple, little, reduction in it's radius is a small ask on my part.
Out of all the games I've played for the past 2 weeks (ever since Onryo/Sadako was released) There has only been maybe 5 games wherein I didn't encounter Spine Chill. Which is very sad honestly since equipping it for the sole purpose of countering Onryo is stupid as hell, because she emanates a "Lullaby" radius while de-manifested (in stealth), meaning that she's LITTERALLY the noisiest "stealth" killer in the damn game! In all honesty, this design decision means that she can't even be considered a Stealth killer IMO, so it's not even necessary. Regardless, Spine Chill has seen a MASSIVE increase in usage amongst survivors, and whether or not Onryo is to blame for this, Survivors have noticed how OP it is against all killers, and are making it a permanent addition to their builds. It's basically kryptonite to Myers and Ghost Face, as well as a major pain for any killer, stealth or not. All I'm asking for is a simple balance change by reducing its radius of effect from the grotesquely large 36 meters to 20 at minimum or 24 at max. Does that really scream to you that it would make it useless?
As for BBQ and Chili... that's actually already a very balanced perk. The aura reveal doesn't affect anyone within 40 meters of the hook or in a locker, and other than that, it just provides the killer with bonus BP for getting 4 hooks, so what the hell do you want? You want it's aura reading range doubled or removed perhaps? or maybe you want it to require 8 hooks to give the killers their bonus BP? I seriously don't understand how you can hate on BBQ&C which is far better balanced, over the much less balanced and currently OP Spine Chill... I just don't get your reasoning.
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Myers is more fair, primarily because YOU KNOW he's coming, instead of just exposed out of nowhere not having any clue he's actually coming to you. Especially with the amount of deadzones and weak tiles in current dbd.
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Honestly so true.
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I really don't think Spine Chilli should be nerfed, doesn't matter the arguments, nothing will chance my head. Sorry being ofensive
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actually i agree with that, ngl we need bots in this game, atleast they'll know to do gens instead of urban evasioning in the bush.
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Spine chill is fine the way it is. Get better at the game get rank 1 killer and survivor and you quickly realise its NOT OP and you'll be crying you didn't have DS or UB.
Whats next nerf adrenaline? TO OP?
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I think there should be a hard counter perk for killers like Calm Spirit is for Spies from the Shadows.
I use it in every survivor match and agree it's a strong crutch perk that comes with many benefits, to me it's the survivor equivalent of the Tinkerer perk, it makes the game a LOT easier to play.
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From one extreme to another. No, it doesn't need a nerf. It's the 1 stealth detection perk, because Premonition is a joke.
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Maybe have the distance reduced if Undetectable, like 18 or 24 meters instead of 36 or something. Keeps it viable vs Stealth without completely screwing them over.
Honestly I like this idea
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Not really, 24 meters is far too far away to spot a stealth killer, that's plenty of time to be all the way to another pallet.
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That's why my first thought was 18, half the current distance. But I'm bad at distances so I was unsure if that wasn't too close.
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Look away
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36 meters, traveling at 4.6m/s = 7.8 seconds of warning to a survivor, regardless of if the killer is undetectable or not.
24 meters, traveling at 4.6m/s = 5.2 seconds worth of warning to a survivor, regardless of if the killer is undetectable or not.
on average, if the survivor starts running away from their position after 1 second of Spine chill being active, they can run away for 6.8 seconds, or a total of 27.2 meters from their position when it activated at its current 36m distance.
If the range was reduced to 24 meters, on the other hand, they gain 20.8 meters of distance... only 7 meters less.
This suggested change doesn't break the perk, it barely balances it. All it does is give survivors 2.6 seconds of less warning time, and allow killers like Myers and Ghost Face to Stalk them, as long as they have an Unobstructed view of the survivor and are more than 24 meters away. Currently those 2 killers can't even manage that against anyone with Spine Chill, because their max stalk range is 32 meters, which is 4m lower than spine chill will detect them, and even worse... GOOD LUCK finding an unobstructed 32 meters of clear vision on a survivor, hell, finding 16 meters of unobstructed vision is hard enough. I 'm Obviously being LENIENT in my suggestion to balance this perk, and yet you guys still are against this... I just can't, can I?
Post edited by TWiXT on0 -
I used to think Adrenaline was OP. It's just an annoying perk, and potentially second chance/win more. Not as applicable as Dead Hard or Unbreakable though, because all of the gens actually have to be done, so I let it slide.
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