Survivors CAN'T get new meta Perks
I've seen a lot of recent complaints about Survivors not getting any new meta Perks, which is 100% understandable, Killers have been getting more and more good Perks, and a lot of Survivor Perks just aren't good and aren't getting buffed either.
What my issue with these complaints is, is that there CAN'T be any new meta Perks added.
Why?
Because for there to be new meta Perks, they'd need to be better than the current meta Perks, which means they'd be straight up broken and overpowered, or easily abuseable. It happened with Boil Over and it happened with Circle Of Healing.
If Survivors wanted new meta Perks, they'd have to accept that most of their meta would need to be nerfed slightly to be on the level of most Perks, along with buffing some of the weaker Perks to find a middle ground
Comments
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Survivors don't really even need meta perks, outside going against a few select top tier killers. Most of the survivor's power is built into the mechanics of the game itself. Survivor power is pallets and windows.
If survivors slam gens, even something like Parental Guidance is strong enough because outright losing the survivor after a semi-long chase can be a game-losing event; especially if it's the first chase of the game.
BT/DS are only needed if the survivors are poor loopers or going against a tunneling Nurse or something.
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I wouldn't say DS and BT aren't needed, as camping and tunneling can hurt a team quite hard if they're not using DS/BT
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This guy gets it.
Survivor Mains act like Killers get AMAZING new perks every patch. Listen, just because Killers use new perks does not meant they are meta. It means they are not chained to the same six perks. You could ban TWENTY perks that I could not use as a Killer, and I'd still put together a fun build.
Ban just five perks for Survivors - Dead Hard, Borrowed Time, Iron Will, Decisive Strike, and Unbreakable - and watch the entire Survivor Main community have an absolutely freaking meltdown.
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I'd really like to see a perk added that better addresses the issue of face camping. Heck, buff Kinship and I'd use it more. I feel like if they did that it could be partially meta but not broken hopefully. Either way I want something to help make face camping not feel so awful.
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Except DS and BT, they can nuke survivor meta. I don't mind.
Those perks needed for have chance win, sad but true.
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Tbf, banning DS and BT would be a terrible idea because there would be no deterrence preventing killers from immediately tunneling off hook. But I see your point.
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I am not questioning their validity. I'm just pointing out that Killers are far less attached to their perks like a baby blankie than Survivors are. That completely alters how meta works. The OP is correct, to change Survivor meta you need to either make something so good it SOMEHOW outclasses a perk like Dead Hard, or you have to smash the existing perks with a hammer.
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You can't get camped and tunneled if you don't go down. Most maps provide more than enough resources to loop a killer for 4-5 gens solid. But for whatever reason you still get survivors going down in the first 20 seconds on a map entirely full of pallets, I will never get it. Sure, camping and tunneling is OP in that situation but that's the survivors fault. And really BT/DS won't buy a survivor playing that poorly much time anyways. Especially if the killer was a top tier character.
I use the perks sometimes too but I almost never think they are actually needed. It's usually I am using them to cover up my teams mistakes rather than thinking the perks were a requirement to win.
Bluntly, in solo Q you are better off running things to keep yourself alive rather than your team. Too many games the gens are never going to get done and you can choose to run those perks and go down with the ship every time, or save yourself.
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I mean the meta is basically perks that prevent tunnelling and slugging + dead hard.
Idk why people complain about not getting new meta perks if you just need to be good at looping and the rest of the team coordinated to just delete 3 gens by the time the chased gets downed.
(Come to think of it, it's hard to do in solo que. Maybe people just expect perks that will be broken and just win a game for them :/ idk... balancing men, balancing)
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So you can make killer run for 5 gens every game?
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If it's like a Sadako on Coldwind or something? Absolutely. And it doesn't have to be a 5 gen run, 3 gens is enough. And a 3 gen run if your team is actually doing gens is maybe a 40-50 second chase? You can get that predropping on half the maps.
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You did not mention any killer or any map on your post. You said " You can't get camped and tunneled if you don't go down. Most maps provide more than enough resources to loop a killer for 4-5 gens solid. But for whatever reason you still get survivors going down in the first 20 seconds on a map entirely full of pallets, I will never get it"
So now i am playing against Sadako (m1 killer) at strong survivor sided map. Things changes so fast, right?
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It's more like if you banned DS and BT survivors likely wouldn't play anymore.
Some of the meta perks exist and are so popular because they give us a second chance against camping, tunneling and slugging which are otherwise helpless scenarios.
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It's the state of the game to be honest.
For killers the most value and pressure they can get is by camping and tunnelling, So that in turns forces survs into running meta survival perks.
Until there is more reward for killers for doing secondary objectives, i.e kicking gens and bones you'll find Killers will just go as hard and fast into making it 3v1 rather than doing other things.
Gen regression is non existent, so why kick a gen, you can't repair when you're dead.
Until the devs give killers more options to create pressure then welcome to d.s,b.t,dh tunnel meta.
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Oh I absolutely agree. No argument there.
I would even go so far as to say that even if every killer perk not involving either slowdown or generators in some way was removed from the game, there would probably still be more variety in killer meta than survivor meta as there's multiple ways to go about having a full slowdown build, whether that be ruin/undying/tinkerer +1, PR/DMS/deadlock/corrupt, ruin/pop/corrupt/NWO, ruin/undying/pentimento +1, or even corrupt/pop/brine/eruption, or anything else, vs. BT/prove/DH/IW or DH/DS/UB/COH, or any combination thereof.
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I am not sure about Decisive Strike, but Borrowed Time is practically required to play the game at this point.
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I will stop arguing with you, since you clearly can't read and it's a waste of my time. What does the first sentence I said in this thread say?
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"You can't get camped and tunneled if you don't go down."
Great advice! All survivors can make run killer forever. And yeah, i agree arguing with you looks pointless. Have a nice day.
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Survivors don't really even need meta perks, outside going against a few select top tier killers.
This was the first sentence from @OpenX. I disagree with it, but "You can't get camped and tunneled if you don't go down." wasn't their first sentence
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I wonder if people who complain about this alleged "killers getting the best new perks all the time" even understand this game's perk system for killers. It's the exact same thing as the survivor perk system: You have to unequip a good perk to equip another. Killers don't get to stack additional good perks on top of their 4 perk slots, which is what these people make it sound like. And these perks we're getting are way worse than they make them out to be. "More new gen defence?!" Yes, but who uses Eruption? "More new Exposed perks?!" Yes, but who uses Starstruck?
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You can play super safe as survivor, and make a few reads, in which case you literally don't go down before all the gens get done. But no, you won't necessarily be able to do that every time, nor will you have to. If you run a killer for 2 gens, they lose the game, because they don't have enough momentum or enough of their objective completed at that point to make a comeback, and will probably have to settle with a 1-2k with NOED.
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For me it's just BT, which is the only surv meta perk I ever run (but to be fair, I run it almost every time). It is often the only hope you have of saving against a camper/tunneler.
Take the rest, I don't care.
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I could run a game of Killer with Spies From the Shadows, I'm All Ears, Lethal Pursuer, and Franklin's Demise and still have fun. :P
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I don't think there could be a Perk that makes Face-Camping suck less, that wouldn't also be broken or barely do anything
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Pretty much. It also goes to show you that there are no "sacred" perks in the Killer arsenal.
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"You can't get camped or tunneled if you don't go down" was the first sentence in the comment that @MikaleaWantsYourBoon replied to though.
The "...select top tier killer" part was a few comments up, so it is easily to miss, if you don't remember each comment's content and author in a thread.
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UB/DS/BT are meta because they're bandaids to design flaws in the game. New meta perks would have to do the same job, better, at which point the previous ones would just become unused too. CoH is a great example, as it was busted.
Anyway, I'll be that guy: killers can't have new meta perks either (slowdowns). They have tons already, and stacking them up is extremely overwhelming especially for soloq (but also for normal swfs).
Arguably, all killer meta perks in the game should be toned down, while only survivors meta perk that aren't bandaiding anything should be toned down (DH, CoH - which needs a rework, not a number change, others (?)).
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I wouldn't mind toning meta Killer Perks down, if there were any that needed toning down.
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I could name a few
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OpenX even mentioned the post he was talking about as well as asking "What does the first sentence I said in this thread say?", specifically talking about the first sentence from his first post
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Please do, but please refrain from talking about NOED. It's counterplay, that being remembering the positions of Totems and searching for them once the last Generator has been finished, is well-known
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I said slowdown/stalling perks. I don't have much of a problem with noed tbh. Actually I wouldn't have a problem with it at all of it wasn't for slowdown perks that make it almost impossible to "do bones" and finish all the gens too, if the killer has any idea of what they're doing. Ah yeah, that counterplay you mentioned doesn't work much because there are some spawns that you simply won't come across while doing gens only)
Anyway my biggest problem right now as a single perk is DMS, but overall it's how well stalling perks synergize together, especially PR + DMS (-15% + up to 45 seconds = 55% gen progress)/Pop (-15 + (-25)%). Luckily, people are seriously underestimating how strong pentimento is too, because other than the 30% slowdown, there's the passive slowdown of having to cleanse twice totems (finding them + going to them). If someone gets hooked close to the rekindled totem, that's a free ticket to camping, and survivors don't even have the option of "doing gens" anymore as a single gen now requires ~120 seconds to complete.
Basically, slowdown perks by themselves aren't even that strong/they're ok. But put together they're just too strong
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PR+DMS is only a problem if Survivors don't know how to counter it.
Get off the Generator before a Survivor gets hooked, and then get back on it.
Pentimento isn't really underrated. It requires Survivors to cleanse Totems for it to work, which most of them don't, thanks to the new Boon Perks.
Sure, it works with other Perks, but it's only useful when you run 2/3 Perks along with it, which is a whole build, just for Pentimento to work
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Let overcome applies when you have bt.
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Sure, that'd once and for all solidify my opinion on Overcome being the second best Exhaustion Perk
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If survs cleanse totems pentimento would be totally busted and the best perk in the entire game
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No, because they'd know where the Pentimento Totem is, and they'd be able to quickly cleanse it again
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Same as boon totems
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I would use Kindship in Anti camp build if the perk doesnt require another survivor nearby.
Just make the perk struggle phase from 60 to 90sec.
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Yes. If Survivors are bad and don't know how to properly place Boon Totems, they will get found
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Thats completely stupid. Killer nearly always get meta perks and theyre not better than the rest, theyre equal to the rest. Why should it be different on survivor side? Theres no reason behind your statement.
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It's the current tactics that force the survivor meta. Those of us that don't run meta, know we would survive more with it, but for whatever reason, we choose not to.
If we weren't camped, tunneled and slugged so often, then the meta would switch. But, it's a catch 22, killers say we need to do these tactics to have a chance to win. And survivors counter with if I don't run these then I'm going have ######### games being camped and tunneled.
Both meta and strong tactics are for those sweats that like those dubs above all else.
Us chills just get screwed.
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Ah yes, the "untap the gen" strategy while facing mobility killers that will be on you in 5-10 seconds.
Pentimento *is* underrated for the simple fact that not everyone runs boons, and many times booning a hex isn't worth the time at all. And if the team you're facing is even slightly coordinated, only one of them will be running a boon, which would require them specifically to go to the hex and boon it instead of cleansing it, just to counter the possibility of running into a pentimento. And the whole build around it would most likely be ruin+undying, which is still slowdown/regression, or plaything, which is passive slowdown
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Became the Killer meta is generally balanced, unlike the Survivor meta? The Survivor meta is made out of second chances, the Killer meta is made out of Perks that make the game longer so Generators don't get finished in 5 minutes
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As i said earlier, the "second chances" are due to flawed game design that the killers use to get easier victories. When i queue as survivor i kinda want to stay in the trial for more than 2 minutes
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ds and bt are second chances, but camping and tunneling are the same second chances for killers, but without using perks
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Yes. Letting go off of the Generator counters PR+DMS. If you're going against a Killer with high mobility, then hide until the Killer comes, then leaves and work on the Generator. It's not hard to counter.
Coordinated teams don't run a single Boon. Having 2 is better, and safer, than only using 1 Boon.
Ruin+Undying+Pentimento is a good build that only works on good Killers, making winning easier. If a low mobility Killer we're to use this build they'll lose. They simply don't have the time to run around the map to rekindle cleansed Totems
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I never complained about BT+DS, I use them myself, but they are second chances. Whether that be from "bad game design", it doesn't matter.
Camping and tunneling aren't second chances, they're efficiency
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Camping and tunneling are the free version of ds and bt for killers
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No.
They are efficient strategies. They're not Perks, they're not second chances, they are strategies used by Killers who want to win
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