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Dear BHVR,your "Grade Based Matchmaking Test" was really flawed.
Here's a simple thing to think about - you CANNOT lose a grade,compared to a rank. Thus making a test late in the Grade season allows everyone to slowly flow up regardless of their real pip tally up because you cant lose a grade.
Hence it being much worse than old ranked. Please reconsider.
Comments
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Reconsider what? They're making changes already.
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Reconsider their testing methodology for the future.
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Did I misread it, or did you?
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What are you confused about? Their post was "we want to let people into their grade so we started this test just before rank reset" which is silly,considering how much easier it is to just go up a grade over time even compared to ranks.
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Yes,but why set it in just before Grade reset where the issue is at its' worse instead of,say,two weeks in then? That just dillutes it more.
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So basically you want the old red rank, I remember that I got potatoes as teammates even at red rank. Unless they making really hard to reach ranks and maintain, there is no point in graded matchmaking.
But of course killer mains would love that 100+ game in row with 4k
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I believe a reworked pip system together with ranks would be much better,yes. Not just old matchmaking straight up. My whole point is that BHVR tested the worst possible situation for their Grade Based System which could be a thing to address.
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I would kinda disagree here, the old rank based match making was arguably worse, because sure, a red rank would be a red rank consistently, but you can reach red rank within your first 20 hours of the game. Now you're 20 hours in and will consistently face people who have 1000+ hours.
The current "reworked" system works better because it will be harder to earn grades unless you're actively performing well in the game. You wouldnt really start facing people who are far outside your skill comfortzone untill the end of the month.
The fact that your grade gets reset back to the start, and good players earning grades much faster than people who arent as good, it's not really that bad.
Let alone that in games like Overwatch and League of Legends, you wont really lose a rank once you've gained it. Going from silver 5 to silver 1 is easier than going from silver 5 to bronze 1. And that matchmaking hasnt really impacted games any worse than before when you could drop down from silver 5 to bronze 1 with just 1 or 2 games.
So by default, this matchmaking system is better than the old one, because the reset is more significant. It's basically the old system, but *better*
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For survivor main this current system is the best.
For killer mains the old system would be the best
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My survivor games are much,much worse now. Killer games are just harder. You're generalizing based on "easy to win" or something?
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The old rank system was good all that needed to be done was remove the safety pip.
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Hence the need to make pipping stricter. I dont think an analogy to another game is valid,DBD's very unique as an asym,so idk about comparing it to overwatch, You should be able to lose a "grade/rank" or whatever for the system to work remotely okay.
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My survivor games are very easy right now, in the past before mmr I got very bad players usually, now I get players who know how to play.
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I wouldn't say that would be the be-end all solution,but could be a helpful change to try.
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Grade based matchmaking sucked when it came to fairness and balance. The only good thing about it was that it produced an emphasis on pipping. So killers would need to get more hooks and play more “fair” in order to pip or preserve their rank 1, and they were also able to effectively do this because of the variability of their opponents skill. Conversely as a survivor you could die but still feel ok about it if you pipped.
Thats not to say there wasn’t hard tunneling or camping under the old grade system, you just typically saw it less at “high ranks”
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The comparison was simply to counter your "people cannot lose their grade, thats bad" argument. When the obvious answer is "people cant get higher as easily too". Because Day 1, you'd share the rank with people who are much, much better than you, they will pretty much soar to iri ranks within the first 3 days. Day 4 is when you start to be able to climb a bit, but each time you climb is still facing good players who started a bit later. It's not untill the middle of the grade season that you can pip consistently, untill you start facing better players again nearing the end of it all. Its going to be more difficult to pip by the sheer fact that you'd consistently be facing better players. The old matchmaking system didnt really prevent that, because if you were rank 4 by the end of the month, you'd still face red rank players the entirety of the next month.
As for making pipping stricter, no, maybe for killers, but overall no. For survivors to even gain a single pip can be utterly impossible even if they are objectively the best player in the game. An extreme example is the following: Your teammate runs Bubba for 4 gens before they get downed. You've aided a bit to help extend the chase, but you and your teammates also needed to remove totems and do gens. Totems and gens are just for lightbringer. Your teammate dies on the hook, with iri chaser and iri lightbringer(teammates doing gens and totems also counts to the survivor in chase), no pip. You and the other 2 escape, with iri lightbringer, iri survivor but thats pretty much it, no pips. This is already true in gold grading, in iri grading you might even lose a pip.
Pipping doesnt need to be stricter, it needs to be more accurate to represent the match. It's fine-ish for killers, you tend to get -1 pip if 3 people are able to escape, you tend to get +1 pip or more when 3 people are killed. There are some killers that have it a bit easier, and those would need changing as they could get pips relatively easily even if they dont kill anyone(looking at you, legion, wraith and ghostface), but for survivors, they kinda need to be more evenly distributed.
All in all, while the argument for pipping is a relevant one(it always has been, even before SBMM, just like survivor bp potential in matches), I dont think its necessarily an issue for the current course of events.
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By setting it just before the grade reset, we gave people as much time as possible to separate. The people who play the most would end up further away from the people who play the least. This is important because under the grade system, grades reset all the way back to 20 whereas ranks would only reset one colour tier. Setting it two weeks into a reset would give people a lot less time to spread out and more than likely end up with the vast majority of players within the silver-gold range.
We could debate whether or not that's the worse time all day, but ultimately that's impossible to say. Under the old rank system rules, that would probably be true, given that players weren't reset that far back and will have a much easier time climbing a few ranks. However, since everyone's starting at 20, that's a much different story. The average person does not reach iridescent ranks each month.
In any case, even with different timing, this still would not be a conclusive test. You cannot switch it on for 1-2 days and get definitive results. A system like that takes longer for people to settle where they're supposed to be.
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Then why don't we test it for one month? Old grade based MMR was the best
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Have you guys considered testing it over the course of a couple of months? Not the entire time, but 1-2 days twice a season at random intervals? Or maybe having that as a standard at the end of each month, having 28 days of SBMM and 2 days of grade based matchmaking? While its important for matchmaking to be accurate, especially for newer players, it would be nice for long-term players to have 2 days of basically playing in a pool.
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And on the converse, it was so easy to derank that we even saw Fog Whisperers doing it openly to stomp newer players on stream.
Mm.
I came into those testing days as someone who'd only been learning survivor for 50ish hours, and had already reached Iri 4. I got mauled and cussed out by my 1-2k hour teammates for being a potato.
It was dreadful.
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I feel it needs to be remembered that the rank-based matchmaking that you're asking to have tested was the matchmaking for years. I'm not entirely sure what you're expecting them to learn by asking to test it over a couple of months. They already know what that system looks like and they didn't like it.
You'd need to propose other changes to test too and that would be much more involved and each person would come in and say, "You didn't actually test it correctly because of X reason." You'd also have to take away the rank reset to 20 and then the grade rewards with it. All of this for a system they already tried tweaking, didn't really like, and to replace something that the development team thinks is healthier for the game.
And what's the end goal exactly?
The improvements to the rank-based system would be probably:
- Get rid of the safety pip.
- Make it much more difficult to pip once.
Once you implement these, it's probably going to look more similar to the current kills/escape system than you'd think.
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They don't care. They have already decided it's more important to give 8k+ hour Blight and Nurse mains "more variety" (translation: easier games) than to actually balance the game.
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No, it's not. Because rankbased matchmaking that was there "for years" was matchmaking that reset you down only 4 ranks at most. The matchmaking back in the old-old days where there was a full reset, except pips were based on BP, and then it was changed to a victory cube for killers, but still BP for survivors. Then the full reset was removed and a new pip system was introduced. The system I am asking for is the current pipping system in combination with the old(or current) full reset.
So how does a full reset to ash 4 with the current pip system, where maybe 20% of the community gets red rank consistently(note, not permanently) on either sides(note 2, not both sides) even compare to the old matchmaking where 40% of the community was permanently red rank on both sides? And a large portion of them being red rank basically on day 1.
It's actually significantly more difficult to reach rank 1 now than before, especially early on in the month. For anyone to be red rank day 1 is only for the most dedicated players who are good enough to consistently double pip.
And no, the matchmaking being tested over a longer period time at random intervals would lead to good results to see how much it has changed compared to prior, as players basically have a random spread on the grade system.
As for your points. 1. No, camping and tunneling alone created the need for the safety pip, and it's basically a reward for not camping and tunneling all game so that one cannot be dispersed. 2. Not really? It's not that easy to get that first pip for survivors, maybe that should be done for killers, which makes sense, as the double pip requirement is also tougher than survivors where the single pip is arguably much easier.
So since point 1 is an absolute no just for the sake of camping and tunneling, and point 2 barely needing any changes, no, it wouldnt look even close to similar to kills/escape. Unless you want to make it unable for survivors to pip if they dont escape, or make it impossible for killers to pip if they dont gain at least 3 kills. Both being quite insane statements.
Also:
"You'd also have to take away the rank reset to 20 and then the grade rewards with it." Why would you need to do so? I never implied that. The whole point about turning MMR off was to use the grades instead. So why remove the reset to 20? Because all players start at the same day? Well, people who are rank 1 would definitely play on the day of reset. People who are rank 6 might not always play the day of reset. People who are rank 14 might not even play for 6 more days before they boot up DBD. So why remove the reset to 20? It might have 1-2 days of uncomfortable games for some people, but that would sort itself out within the first 3 days. Also, why remove the grade rewards? The only reason to remove that, is if you removed the rank reset to 20 again, but I never implied that. That was all you.
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A full rank reset means that matchmaking is chaotic and random on rank reset day. Then those who rank up have hour long queues and nobody to play with. Both of these are undesirable. There's also still no reliable way to rank down. Doing it that way would mean matchmaking didn't exist for most people for the larger part of a month. This also assumes that people are playing the game during that time period.
Again, this stuff was already tried. It already had problems. A small modification wouldn't meaningfully change things. There is no meaningful difference between pipping with bloodpoints versus pipping with emblems because that wasn't the root of the problem and you wouldn't reasonably expect to get a different result. The developers would be wasting a bunch of time they could be using to experiment with changes to dead hard. I'd rather have that change.
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Would love to go back to old ranks but make it way harder to get to iri
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maybe because the mmr equation is overly simplified ? Hockey analogy, you know?
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"A full rank reset means that matchmaking is chaotic and random on rank reset day."
I do not see an issue with this, as I said again, tryhards in DBD will always play ASAP on reset anyway, casuals dont. There will be a tiny bit of chaos, but any true reset day would have chaos the first day. Just because its once a month rather than once every 6 months or once a year doesnt mean chaos is the natural order of things on reset.
As for ranking up, I mean, plenty of people playing, its not a difference between people who have 800 MMR and people who have 3000 MMR, its only a difference of 20 ranks. As for ranking down, also really doesnt matter too much. It doesnt happen right now, and a much smaller portion reaches rank 1 than before. While rank 1 still doesnt mean too much compared to skill, it is a much more meaningful when it comes to the playstyle of people now than it was before.
So no, it hasnt really been tried out. It literally never existed before. There is a huge difference in pipping with BP and pipping with emblems. There are plenty of games where I would have 100% pipped with BP but not with emblems, there are practically no games where I would have depipped with BP but not with emblems. They have some similarities, if you get camped, you depip either way, if you escape and did some totems along the way, you would pip either way, but the games that come inbetween are much more common and they dont overlap.
"There is no meaningful difference between pipping with bloodpoints versus pipping with emblems because that wasn't the root of the problem and you wouldn't reasonably expect to get a different result."
I mean, there would be a different result, the question is how different will that result be. Here's the facts: 1. it was easier to pip with BP than with emblems. 2. it was easier to climb the ranks when the reset was only resetting you 1 tier. 3. there are significantly less players reaching red ranks than before.
Those are quite large changes. Large enough to note down and potentially test for.
"The developers would be wasting a bunch of time they could be using to experiment with changes to dead hard. I'd rather have that change."
The devs working on DH are still working on DH. You cant really experiment with DH changes, you need a PTB for that in the first place and they have their own playtesters. Other devs, the ones that are not actively coding, are capable of simply flicking the switch. Not really wasting any time at all. All they have to do is replace a "true" statement to "false"(or the opposite way) and send it to the server. When it comes to perks, they need to fully update the game to send changes to the server.
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