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OK so you want to nerf DH.
Then nerf anti-loop killers too. Would you agree? Asking to nerf DH when we have Nurse, Spirit, Blight, Artist, Nemesis. etc... Is not fair.
Also spoiler alert: After making DH useless, You all will complain about that everyone is using Spirt Burst.
Comments
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But then they will ask for Sprint Burst to be nerfed too. Do you think there's a logic or limit to it?
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This forum is full of campers, tunnelers and noed killers. What do you expect?
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I’m sorry but none of those killers need a nerf, rework sure, add-on changes also, but not a flat out nerf, all those killers are beatable without DH and DH needs to be nerfed because of how devastating it is to lower tier killers and how it literally is a perk that is the most on demand easy exhaustion perk.
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So in exchange for the nerf you want to guy every killer so they all have to play the m1 loop game? Wouldn’t that just be boring
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This has a very easy explanation. This forum -does- have a majority of entitled killer mains, and the reason is, the moment the match doesn't go their way, they immediately rush to the forums to complain about it. It doesn't matter the circumstances, the situation, the cause of it. They will find an excuse as to why they lost (it's never them) . Of course there's entitled survivors here complaining as well, but comparatively speaking you can just see the disproportionately higher number of killer players that do this.
I see a lot of survivors (myself included) complaining about the general state of solo queue for example. Not survivor in general. Even when there's valid reasons for it.
On the other hand, you see killers whining about everything. The maps, the perks, the skins, the colors, teabagging, bodyblocking, rainbow maps (yes, they complain even about rainbow maps), keys, medkits, toolboxes, gens speed, windows, tiles.
It's just an endless list of complaints one after another to avoid the number 1 reason you're not winning your games as often as you'd like: You.
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What is wrong with Nemesis? He has not any map pressure. Also his tentacle has fair counterplay.
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Overcome would be better for most people anyway. Just holding W, Overcome will give you 40 seconds on a killer before they can catch. up. You can literally run the distance of Red Forest, diagonally.
I've never had a Dead Hard give that kind of advantage, even if they use it to close the gap to a pallet or a vault.
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Your terms are acceptable.
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Nerfing something that’s overpowered doesn’t require changing anything else to be “fair”.
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The major reason why killers whine more is twofold.
- Survivors can usually vent to each other if survive with friends.
- The game is legitimately stacked against the killer. Simple math of average find, chase, hook time vs. how long it takes 3 people to do generators+escape proves that. That's acceptable considering survivor should be more appealing because you require 4 survivors for every killer but it's a bit too far at the moment and Dead Hard is the biggest contributor.
Solo survivors have their own grievances for sure but I think if players were made to play solo (not a good idea just pointing it out) killer complaints relative to survivor ones would go down significantly.
Also Dead Hard is as much a frustration and mental thing as it is an overpowered thing. It denies the killer their reward right at the moment they are about to get it and no amount of counterplay is healthy or even feasible in some cases. The arguments against Dead Hard at this point are overwhelming.
I'm sure some WILL complain about sprint burst or overcome or whatever, just like some survivors complain about blood lust but the 'mental' thing of dealing with sprint burst is a lot easier. It's much harder to manage sprint burst then Dead Hard and when it happens, it's at the start of a chase not the end.
Oh and btw, you can take any three or four killer perks for Dead Hard. You can nerf Blight or Nurse too from where I sit. I don't even play to win and I loathe Dead Hard.
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Why?
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I disagree with the idea that any power related to looping needs a rework if Dead Hard gets nerfed, because at that point you're assuming that Dead Hard is a necessity to counter them and that's just not the case. I've been playing without Dead Hard for a while now and I seem to manage. I'm not even an amazing survivor either.
I do agree that certain killers are incredibly boring to go against because they have abilities related to looping and require you to press the W key rather than actual looping. There's just hardly any interaction between the survivor and killer, but that does not make them overpowered and Dead Hard doesn't plasterfix this either...
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Then nerf every second chance Perk the Survivors have, and give Killers base-kit NOED. If you only want to go against M1 Killers, at least give them a chance to play the game
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It's not even overpowered people just suck and can't accept it
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"just bait it out 4head"
Stop saying this and accept the fact that a Dead Hard for distance is uncounterable
Post edited by ThatOneDemoPlayer on19 -
Nailed it in one
Anyone who argues that DH is fine where it's at has clearly never played against survivors who actually know how to use it because the survivors who use it to "dodge" getting hit or DH themselves into a wall because they're not paying any attention to what they're doing are not the problem. May God have mercy on their soul the first time they run into a 4 man bully squad all running DH...
Now granted I do think the devs have put themselves in a horrible spot here. Finding a way to nerf DH so it's not incredibly frustrating and stupidly overpowered isn't going to be easy and they've left it alone for so long that survivors are going to be pissed no matter how little the change is (at least with something like Boil Over, they kept it being stupidly OP for only a month before they cut it down). Take away the distance and I feel like DH becomes one of the worst Exhaustion perks to have but the distance is what makes it so stupidly overpowered.
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You can beat any of those killers without DH though? I don't understand the logic.
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I'm not sure I see the comparison being drawn here?
Dead Hard is a problem specifically because it lets you get to a new loop and extend the chase for free. It's actually less useful against the "anti-loop" killers, because you're already not really spending much time in loops and the only way you can use DH is to dodge a hit, which is its weaker (but far more fair and balanced) use anyway. So, if you nerf DH to take away its free distance for a reset, anti-loop killers aren't affected nearly as much as M1 killers, who are the ones who struggle more against it.
Like, obviously there's the fact that you don't need to change anything else when bringing something overpowered in line, but even if that were a thing- the one-to-one just doesn't stack up. M1 killers would be the ones most improved via a Dead Hard nerf, not the anti-loop killers.
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Let me guess. You were not around, back when Undying was released. First page of the forum was full of "nerf Undying" threads.
Don't worry, I'm sure the next update will bring something that both sides can complain about.
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Why? You will be getting rekt by any killer not just top tier without your precious DH you cant play without
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It actually statistically does appear to be overpowered. Per datasets players have posted there is a much higher than normal correlation between the number of survivors who use Dead Hard in a match and escape rates. And the devs have also directly commented that they saw something similar in their data and weren’t happy with it which is why it’s expected the perk will probably see a nerf soon. It’s also the reason it’s apparently the most popular survivor perk by a fair margin (something like 40-50% of survivors use it).
The reason it’s overpowered is pretty simple - it’s actually two effects in a single perk both of which are strong enough to be decent perks all on their own. You could have a perk that just lunges for distance with no invulnerability and a lot of survivors would still use it just for that, and likewise because hit validation has made it so you can 100% reliably dodge attacks based on animations the dodge itself could be a perk at this point in its own right. (And anybody who says the dodge never comes into play at high level are wrong, lunging for distance is more common but dodging to evade hits also comes up at least a couple of times a match from what I can tell. Plus the threat alone of dodging a swing often extends chases a few more seconds as killers try to bait or wait it out.)
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As a matter of fact, I was.
Of course it will bring something both sides will complain about. Survivors will complain about that new thing, and for killers it wil just be another day of complaining in general.
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Just take away the invulnerability. The distance is still useful obviously but losing the invulnerability during the lunge eliminates that whole “I’m close enough to hit but I need to wait a few seconds to bait out a Dead Hard“ thing that often happens. (And as a side benefit it eliminates those annoying hacks which auto-Dead Hard on a swing).
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The biggest irony in this post is on one hand saying that the nerf to dead hard would make a nerf to killer necessary and meanwhile saying that the nerf wouldn't make a difference because every survivor would use sprint burst and claiming it would be stronger than dh.
You should either think that sprint burst is stronger and a nerf won't be necessary for balance or that dh IS better and therefore a nerf would be warranted.
Both at the same time is contradictory.
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I think people get a bit too into these debates. Nerfs aren't decided based on who articulates the better argument on the forums, pick rates and win rates as well as complaints go into those decisions.
Not running DH every single match would have probably been a better way to try and save it but I think it's more a question of when the axe falls rather than if at this point.
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The idea that you can judge people's personality based on which role they play is always just ridiculous. Both sides have whiny people that will complain about anything as soon as something doesn't go their way.
And both sides have people that complain about valid, understandable stuff. The fact is that this game is not in a particularly great state for both sides.
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we still complaining about spirit???
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Nobody said bait it out 4head , range and mobility killers have the ability to counter dead hard how about stop playing ######### killers and expecting people to be bots and go down for you
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I was a killer main, and now play more survivor and consider myself an expert looper now.
DH is by far the best second chance perk in the game. SB is less troublesome as it can't be saved in the same way for those end game situations.
No, you shouldn't DH for distance. DH still probably would be popular even if you didn't gain distance on the killer.
I have no problems with solo queue either. Yes, many teams are awful. I do my own thing and just have fun. It's still a tough slog for any new killers and I often feel real bad at the end of the game when I see my randos tbagging. Stop thinking about the killer mains in the forum and think about the "average" player.
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Dead Hard counters every single Killer in the game except for Nurse and Blight. Ranged Killers get cucked by the invincibility and mobility (or any Killer that isn't a ranged Killer/Nurse/Blight) Killers get cucked by the free distance
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But what about all the other killers?
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That's amazing. An expert looper, who also breezes through solo queue. Is there any way I can watch you play? videos of your matches, streams...
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A great example of whataboutism OP, well done!
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🙄🙄🙄
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Yes they all need nerfs expect spirit. Artist can make loops useless with her birds so that needs nerf. Nemesis can hit 10 miles away with his testacle that needs nerf. Blight is not counterable at all without dh and same with nurse so those killer should be just deleted if dh gets nerf.
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My point was, that both sides complain equally. No side complains more than the other. Wanna know why? Because we´re all humans.
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It can be baited it out in many situations so why shouldn’t he/she say it?
Also he never once said bait it out for distance, I think you’re just making stuff up now.
FYI killers like Nurse (the good ones) don’t care about DH they will just blink again.
Maybe stick to the topic.
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I don't want dead hard nerfed, I wanted it deleted.
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sprint burst by far requires more skill than pressing a button only to correct a mistake and extend the chase without almost any effort.
(now sprint burst ,you can 99% , travel the map more quicker if used correctly , and even used while in chase without the unfair Iframes)
"Then nerf anti-loop killers too" I want the same....but sadly map design is still pretty bad for killer...so thats why i dont complain that much against those killer except maybe killers that just promotes W gameplay like Artist.
there is difference between anti-loop killers and opressive anti-loop ones.
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Why did you cross out that last line? That’s exactly what they’re going to do. If BHVR is going to make changes to DH, then they might as well address ALL distance gaining exhaustion perks. The community will just take Sprint Burst, make it optimal, then killers will get frustrated with that. Then it’ll be Overcome once SB gets nerfed. Then it’ll be Lithe when OC gets nerfed. So on and so on.
The others may not be perceived as good as DH, but don’t ever underestimate the competitive nature of gamers to make the 2nd and 3rd best of whatever, a pain in your ass. Killers may even miss DH after seeing a survivor Overcome across the map to a genless area, shack with pallet, or jungle gym for the 20th time. Are you going to follow him all the way over there to get a nice tasty bowl of Fruit Loops, or stay on the side with the gens? And dont worry, he’ll be back on your side in no time- fully healed from that COH boon strategically placed and OC almost off cooldown thanks to sonmeone running Vigil for the team. Rinse & repeat.
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It does. DH is only overpowered against M1 killers. But against Anti-loop killers is not. So deleting the perk without doing something about those killers in chase IS unfair.
To make everyone happy not just one side.
You also can win against 4 DHs. But still people wanted to be nerf because it is not fun/skillful perk to face. The same feeling to survivors when they play against those type of killers.
It is not about the strength of the perks. But this is the players natural in this fourms. Nerf something and they will go hunt the next.
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This is incorrect.
But what really is uncounterable is Dead Man's switch and Scourge Hooks of Pain. Especially on Artist. Tinkerer, killer perks are way less counterable.
Dead hard for distance is utilizing a perk like any other exhaustion perk, which is what perks are supposed to. Anti-loop have little to no counterplay and with kill rates as high as they are, as absolutely crazy as it sounds, the subject of nerfing dead hard should warrant drastic killer nerfs to compensate.
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The rest of killers will be happy. They wont deal with DH. I'm only asking to nerf/change chase powers of some killers.
I disagree. SB will be even more hated. Whenever you aproach any gen you will see Meg running in straight line far far away you won't even want to chase her.
About the maps goes both ways honestly. have you ever got chased by Trickster or Nemesis in auto heaven? Yeah fun times.
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So in exchange for nerfing a single overpowered and in some scenarios uncounterable perk, you want to nerf about half the roster of playable killers
You'll have to forgive me for failing to see the logic in that
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Kill rates have dropped in the last 2 years. So i´m not sure what you´re trying to say. Maybe killer buffs incoming?
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Killrates are always well over 50%. The last time I saw stats Leatherface kills a blindblowing 3K per match on average.
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Well looks can kill, and we all know our boy Bubba is very handsome
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Could you share those 75% kill stats for Bubba, please?
I mean, the last dev stats i´ve seen where around the 50% mark. Some even below. In comparison, 2 Years ago, the kill rates where 20% higher across the board.
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You could beat old Freddy too but his kill rate was so unbalanced they were nerfed, now escape rates with DH is too high and now that will be nerfed.
It turns out nerfs happen on an as needed basis and no side needs to give anything in return like we're negotiating the Treaty of Versailles.
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It's the same thing every time. When spirit was nerfed people were asking what other aspect of her would be buffed as "compensation". Either that or some random thing about survivor should be nerfed at the same time in the interest of fairness.
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