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“Ds should deactivate in the endgame”
Comments
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It's not that most killers feel entitled to a kill during the EGC, its more a sinking feeling of hopelessness and dread; you know that there is nothing you can do and your only reward will be a flashlight show and some awesome twerk moves. At least as the last survivor you can hope for a hatch gift, for a killer there is no such thing, and the hungry Entity will just devour another ever so small sliver of your soul.
Of course, you could run NOED, but what self-respecting killer past 30h does this? And of course, this would just bring its own flavor of toxicity. You just can't win.
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I can’t believe people are still complaining about DS after all the nerfs it’s received.
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Nah, now we are arguing buffs.
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That's because there are still justified complaints on both sides about the perk.
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Same
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That's because the nerfs in question have done little to affect its power during the end game. Hence why I suggest deactivating it during the end game in exchange for buffing it during the not-end game.
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Slug. There's your counter.
What's the counter for end game camping for someone without DS? "but BT!!!!" I play soloq, a lot of people just farm you without BT.
So, what's the counter for someone without DS who is being face camped?
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Yeah but it’s heavily unbalanced. I think ds is fine right now. And no it shouldn’t be deactivated in the endgame. Using deliverance + ds in the endgame is something I try to save. I remember one game against huntress where she was camping the entire game. I got left to second state on the hook with 2 people approaching me. The other survivor was all the way across the map by the other gate. I get unhooked, no bt and huntress downs me immediately. Guess what she picked cup immediately and I dsed her. Now if ds would have been deactivated I would have died first hook. Yay
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gotta get that free 1k in end game just because.
I love how killers on here call survivors entitled but then feel entitled to free kills just because muh end game
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They can still crawl out, so that is not an effective counter.
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Nope, and DS + BT should be basekit just because 2/3 of killers tunnel way too hard, I'm tired of these 2 mandatory perks it's boring I want to play some fun builds, and it's not even useful against sweaty nurses, blight, huntress etc... nothing can stop the tunneling
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How is it making a true anti tunnel perk unbalanced? You can get tunneled after both hook stages. Please do tell how it activating after both hook stages is unbalanced, because I dont think it is at all.
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If you hook in a hook close to the gate, yes, otherwise no unless they have tenacity, which no one ever runs.
You can just hook further away from the game.
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Not reliable. You are entirely at the mercy of where the down happened. Unless it happened far, far away from either gate, they can still very realistically crawl to the gate.
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60 seconds is plenty of time in most end game situations to reach an exit gate. It's not like the survivor is typically slugged right off hook. And you're still ok with them progressing the game by opening exit gates. Not sure we're playing the same version of DbD?
Survivors are not entitled to an escape just because all five generators were completed. They have teammates and other perks to assist them escaping, other than a strong anti-tunnel perk still having effect when the killer is basically out of options in the end game. It's just stupid that a killer has to literally watch a survivor go right out the exit gate in their face because of DS in end game.
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With how many hooks there are I dont think it would be an issue to carry them a big further away tbh
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And killers arent entitled to a free kill just because they couldnt kill the survivor before all gens were completed. We both can say this, we're both right. Using a perk isnt a free escape. Perks are supposed to help you, give you an advantage, that's why they exist and get used.
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As stated above, the survivor could just crawl out. Especially since most people rescue with BT.
I also play solo queue and 9 out of 10 rescues are done with BT.
How is that kill a free kill?! Is there a button killers press, that instantly kills survivors during the EGC?
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It's not a question of finding an available hook. It's a question of being able to travel to it. Unless you are full-on using the taxi meme build, you are very limited in how far you can travel while carrying. And that assumes that no one tries to body block you in your attempt to do so.
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Like you can make it work on both hook states but you would need to change something else. I’m not opposed to the idea entirely. But I just think the perk as we have it right now is fine the way it is
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Getting a free kill or survivors should play better and plan better vs "everyone mob the hook and bodyblock for each other! It's a standard M1 killer so we can all get away easy"
Or PLEASE tell me how you wouldd secure a kill as trapper vs a 4 man SWF and it is EGC, you have played "fair" and everyone is on death hook, there have been zero DS procs and zero BT procs the entire trial, both gate are 99'd and you are standing by the hook. Let's assume the person on hook has DS ready to go.
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And you act like because you didn’t stop them from doing their objective that you’re entitled to free kills.
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Killers are not entitled to free kills during the end game.
I act like a Killer that plays around DS during the not-end game should not be punished by DS as a result during the end game.
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It's just the killer version of hatch lol chill out
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"everyone mob the hook and bodyblock for each other! It's a standard M1 killer so we can all get away easy"
If every game was a 4 man swf sure. But it isn’t
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Anyone who says this wants killer to be ez mode
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So you just hit the person that got of the hook and that’s it?
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I agree that it should deactivate if the exit gates are touched, but it should not by any means deactivate just because it's the end game.
This would incentivize and reward tunneling in the end game and create a really unfair/unbalanced game, especially when going against Blight/Nurse or killers who bring end game perks.
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i agree with everything you said. It should deactivate if you progress the game. Opening a gate is progressing the game
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This is why the earlier you can eat that ds and tunnel someone out, the better. Once EGC has started, if there are 3 people still alive and you are too close to the exit gates, the odds are not in your favor. So ask yourself, do you want to “play fair”, get bt+ ds’ed in egc, and then teabagged before they dead hard through the exit or would you rather just eat that ds earlier in the match and secure the kill before EGC?
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but It literally can be done via pointing and requires the brain power of a squirrel to do this, If M1 killer & no noed & have BT = everyone heal + 99 gates + rush to hook. I sincerely doubt I am going up against 4 man swfs all the time and this is something I regularly see if at least 3 survivors are alive come EGC, If your teammates don't/can't realize that then I am sorry but this is an extremely easy tactic to do that does not require comms and should 100% be a balance point.
Or the alternative is just tunnel people out/do not spread hooks evenly so it never comes to this point but most survivors tend to hate that
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Then target one of the others instead hooked survivor? Game is not over after all gens pop'ed, you can still tunnel them in EGC. So DS is still needed perk, even at end game. So why perk should nerf because killers wants free kill in egc.
If survivors completed all tasks, it should be hard to get one kill for you. This is like that: If 3 survivors died, killer should lose to ability close/block hatch. Fair? No. So why game should reward you for end game camp and tunnel?
DS is fine.
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I fail to see why nerfing DS would be a free kill.
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Because if we nerf DS with this way, killers will target weakest survivor. And weakest survivor is ofc unhooked one. This is still tunnelling and it does not looks healthy change for me.
And i don't know why people are targeting only DS. BT have same effect. If you hooked them near to gates, they will escape with BT too.
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Doesn´t make sense to me. The survivor who gets hooked during endgame and wasn´t tunneled before that. Doesn´t has to be the weakest one.
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I don't understand what you're saying here.
Going after someone else is not remotely feasible in the end game unless they are actively coming to you (which they are only doing if you are camping the hooked Survivor). If you change Survivors even once at that point in the game, the hooked Survivor becomes unhooked, the Gate is easily opened, and the person you are now chasing still has a much easier time making it to that Gate.
When all the gens are done with all/most Survivors still alive, it should be much harder for Killer to win. That does not mean to me that any individual Survivor should effectively be guaranteed an escape.
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To be clear I think most people are not advocating for a universal nerf. I would be 100% fine with DS procing each unhook if it meant during EGC it was off/escaping essentially for free when there are 2-3+ survivors present in EGC. Also, just as you say there is a hidden reliance on BT in this situation. The real root cause here is BHVR creating such drastically different EGC scenarios. One on hook and 3 alive with no DS, no bts, and let's say nobody is running an exhaust perk is massively different from DS on hook + BT present on at least 2 survivors + Dead hard on everyone.
I would hope these kinds of scenarios are minimized/altered in the "big rework", but I think using perks as band aids has led to this weird arms race.
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It shouldn't. The idea here is that killers need some chance to defend a hook during endgame, that crap.
But the truth is, if the killer camps a survivor during endgame, the chances of all survivors escaping without DS or BT are pretty much 0. Why should survivors not have a fair chance of getting a 4-man escape if killers have a good chance of getting a 4k?
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You can just go for one of the other survivors attempting to unhook, best of all the one that actually unhooks. There is counterplay.
Why should killers have a fair chance to get a 4K otherwise if survivors don't have a fair chance of getting a 4-man escape? What kind of double standard is that?
Without DS and BT, the chances of all 4 survivors getting is extremely low. Because once all gens pop, the killer will most likely be chasing someone, and be able to down them before they get to the exit gates after they have been opened.
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Yeah if it is end game and if multiple survivors alive, it should be hard to get kill. Ths is the natural cycle of the game.
It is same of survivor version when one survivor dies at early game. Win will be hard for last 3 survivors at this point. And it should be.
So again, game should not give you " free kill " because you are camping and tunnelling hooked survivor in end game. There is 0 reason to deactivate this perk. Tunnel is still tunnel and DS is helping against it.
So you are clearly saying "If survivor hooked in end game, escape should be so hard for them" but why? You failed on your task, not them. Why they should lose their perks while they won? Yes game is not over before they escape but at this point, you should have hard time, not survivors. Is killer should lose one of the perks when they have only 3 survivors alive? Your suggestion does not make any sense to me.
But tunnelling is still tunnelling, even in EGC. And plus maybe this survivor had 5 gens chase and it was their first hook? So why they should lose their perk because killer failed to kill them. Why EGC should support killer?
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But there is counter play, it’s just something that survivors don’t like. If the killer tunnels them the moment they get rescued and forces them to use it early on in the match, then there’s no need to worry about it during end game.
its damned if you do or damned if you don’t.
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Agreed
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It being hard to score one kill is not the same as one person effectively having immunity. Hard to kill an individual is fine. Survivor being guaranteed an escape is not.
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Tunneling is still tunneling during EGC? Uhm no. Thats like saying, camping is still camping during EGC. There is no where else to go for the killer.
So what is DS now, a anti tunneling perk or not? Because if the survivor made it to the endgame, then the killer obviously wasn´t tunneling said survivor. Mission accomplished. The perk did exactly what its supposed to do. But getting shafted, for playing fair during the whole match? Makes no sense. Even worse, killers could come to the conclusion, that the best way to get rid of DS is to trigger it early by tunneling. Which would only harm the survivors that don´t equip it.
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I think it should deactivate if you try to open a gate, I don't think someone should ever be completely invincible for 60 seconds.
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It is not guaranteed escape. You can hook them far from gates, so you can slug them if they are far enough. You can try grab other survivors when they try save. You can bring end game perks, which will buy you good time. You can eat DS early game. There is enough counters.
But you are just wanna being rewarded for your lose. If they deactive DS & BT for end game, you will just target unhooked survivor. Escape will be imposible for them. This does not look healthy to me. And i agree with @ad19970 . Killers have chance to get 4 kills, so survivors should have for 4 men escape. But your suggestion will make this almost imposible.
You are only talking about one case. Killer played fair and then punished by DS. Is this suck? Yes. But maybe killer never hooked you because you never chased by them. So why you should lose your DS? Or you looped killer for 5 gens. Why you should lose your DS? Or killer was camper Bubba, you are their second hook. Luck gods helped you and you escaped with 4%, why you should lose your DS?
This seriously does not look healthy change to me. Survivors should not punish because they completed their task.
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The first option is absolutely not reliable. The second option I already explained. The third option is finicky at best (which is fine on its own, but not when DS/BT means the unhooked person can also act as a meatshield), end game perks are not worth using IMO (not even NOED), and playing into DS is not a counter to DS.
Also, I can tell you from experience on both sides of the fence that escape at that point in the game while being camped/tunneled is not impossible.
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No other perk deactivates at end game. Why should survivors have one of their few anti-tunnel perks with this feature? I don't see any survivors complaining a perk should deactivate at endgame, but you see killers complaining bt and ds should deactivate. When I go against ds, its fine. When I use ds its fine. It's at its fairest state rn, it does not need another nerf.
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Oh it would be a healthy change. It would turn DS into a high risk, high reard perk.
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They are all counters, not easy for sure but counterplay. And it should not be easy at this case because multiple targets are alive.
Why 4 men escape should be hard for survivors while they played better than you? Deactivating DS and BT for egc will make 4 men escape almost imposible. Because it will be so easy to target unhooked survivor, even someone tries to bodyblock. And you did not answer my other question too. When killer is dominating game, they should lose perks too? If 3 survivors dies, killer should lose ability to close hatch or block too. Because escape is almost imposible for last survivor. So let's punish killer because they won game already with 3 kills.
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