"Survivors don't deserve free escapes"

Survivors have rescue options such as bodyblocking, unhook faking etc. With 10 second base BT, i dont think killer can get a "free kill" if survivors plays well. Also after the DS and OTR nerfs, survivors cant get free escapes either. Fair enough.

DS and OTR being disabled in the endgame is why I believe the perks are now designed to make them for early to mid game use. It's not as if all perks stop working in the endgame, just the two main specifically designed 'anti-tunnel' perks. BHVRs always said they don't want to punish camping and tunnelling but rather heavily deincentivize it and like I said I think if you make it to endgame, you haven't really been tunnelled too hard and have had a chance to actually play the match. That's my logic at least

Obviously, that's assuming the Killer didn't just get ran for 5 gens or something

If all perks stopped working in the endgame period I would agree with you though. Like if exhaustion perks for example stopped working during endgame I'd say that's kinda dumb

Getting to end game does not mean you did not get tunneled. it mean the killer failed to kill the survivors before you finished your objective. tunneling and camping can occur at all points of the game. I see no reason for perks to turn off. the survivor earned their escape if they made to exit gate. Its just that certain survivors have a bit too big of ego and generally act toxic when they escape the killer. DS at exit gates was mostly toxic power-trip.

Killers shouldn't have a damage control mode. they've already essentially lost when they hit end game when most of the team is alive.

Survivors used to have damage control mode. that damage control mode was Old keys and hatch.

The end game in general for DBD is suppose to lose more or win-more situation depending which side is in the advantage. for survivor, when 1 survivor is remaining, when killer closes the hatch, the end game timer is lose-more situation for survivor in most cases because the killer is suppose to win. the odds of opening exit gate are not favourable for the survivor.

DS/OTR in end game is the survivor version of end game-timer for killer. your expected to not get any kills when all 4 survivors are alive, though camping hooks in the end game for many killers is quite strong that the killer still gets kills even though they've lost and the survivor is supposedly in the advantage. I think large reason why killer have large average kill statistic is because killer doesn't really lose, instead they draw(get 2 kills) when they lose and win hard when they win due how end game is structured against the survivor when the survivor loses.

Bro what?

I'm sorry, not supposed to be rude, but i've never heard that anybody thinks a Killer should win most of his matches, because Killer is the power role.

The point is, that with DS and OTR in EGC there is absolutely NOTHING you can do as Killer. If you hit the unhooked Survivor, they DS you, and everyone else is healthy. That even encourages tunneling early on, so DS isn't there later in the game, and if the survivor had no DS, they were screwed.

Now, survivors have a fair chance of escaping, while it's not free.

The person starting this discussion got a fair point tbh, that disabling DS and OTR in EGC hits soloq harder than SWF, but that has nothing to do with Killer mains wanting to win all there games because of a superiority complex.

(In case you're wondering: no, i'm not a Killer main, i play both roles the same amount. But i don't have a problem with DS and OTR disabling in EGC because i don't use these. A way bigger problem is the 3 sec stun, which is not enough)

Ohh you´re talking about that. Well its hard to say. On one hand, it gives solos an incentive for a late game unhook. On the other hand, it would be extremely strong in the hands of SWF.

I´ve been asking for a long time for solo survivor improvements that don´t buff SWF. Because SWF doesn´t need any more buffs.

So my take would be to activate it, while playing solo and deactivate it during endgame, when playing SWF (and the friends are still alive).

Don't you think it is a little disingenuous to say they "escape basement for free?"

The survivor made the err of going down close enough for the killer to carry them to basement. The entire team pays for that err by either hook-trading to save them, or by sacrificing multiple health states and time on objective to save them.

The killer can't instantly down the survivor who was just on hook in basement, but what is so wrong with that? You think that player wants to spend the rest of their game in basement?

Basement has tremendous snowball potential, but it should not be a guaranteed death sentence.

I don't understand your argument.

Why do you refuse to down the person who rescued the survivor from basement?

The whole point of these changes is to let survivors play the game--not trap them in an endless loop of hook -> unhook -> downed -> repeat

It feels as if you are refusing to acknowledge the multiple benefits that basement has to offer

Because smart people go for basement saves healthy, thus meaning they can take two hits if you don't have an instadown? autoaim making you hit the person on the hook instead of the unhooker? "just hit them twice lul" only applies if you were facecamping, which certainly doesn't dissuade people from using strategies like that. Basement is supposed to be so that the killer has an elevated chance of building or reseting their pressure that gets lost from the act of the unhook: Be it through the chokepoints in the escape path, the extended distance required to reach the hook, everything is supposed to be in the killers favor except the god pallet that is almost always present nearby (I think some maps like mothers dwelling don't have a guaranteed safe pallet right next to the stairs, but i could be wrong.)

Its saying "the killer should reasonably be able to maintain their presence, unless they either abandon the position entirely, or the survivors use a single resource" It loses a lot of that power when you can't even reasonably guarantee a hook trade in the most killer-sided position on the map, especially when its one that they have to both waste time carrying survivors there, but also can't pressure any aspects of the map without risking abandoning the basement. Ironically in a way DS is healthier for the situation because at least slugging is an option, but that stopped even being an option once again.

Because if nobody is injured none of that applies? If CoH is somewhere else on the map away from the basement, how are you supposed to snuff it out while also holding that position? People have been saying for ages that CoH's secondary impact on the game is far bigger than its primary one, simply because it breaks the rule of survivors needing to waste each other's time with healing while also not needing to waste their own perk slots as long as a single person brought it. Its why balance decisions always need a broader scope to see the secondary consequences of changes, and not just "thing helps me, it gud." like the majority of balance considerations on here.

You could just as easily argue that the amount of time it took them to reach the basement to make the hook cost them more gens than they could have prevented just using a normal nearby hook. You're letting specific scenarios outweigh potential variations, when the only specific scenario the opposite requires is "don't go for the unhook injured" and "nvm you dont even need to bodyblock for them anymore, just yeet yourself away with the on hit burst so they can't trade."

The only way to mitigate that is to get the first hit before the unhook, to make sure you can get the second before they escape. And guess how you make sure you can get both of those hits as someone without an instadown?

You must not like the concept of hex totems then. Because guaranteeing value from a perk just because you picked it has been an unrealistic expectation in DBD for ages now.

I cant tell if you're not seeing my points due to perspective or confusion, but i don't mind trying to explain it better if you're honestly trying to follow.

1) Exactly. It means that it encourages facecamping the hook, because even proxy camping you might not see them in time before they get down the stairs. The only way to guarantee that preemptive hit is to already be in position for it. By proxy camping you are gambling that you will let someone slip past between checks. Back when healing was less accessable, basement plays took a lot more coordination and invoked a much bigger efficiency hit, now a lot of that gets mitigated both directly (healing for basement save) and indirectly (people less likely to stay injured in general, with less efficiency cost vs requiring healing from a teammate.)

2) You're saying the basement only giving you one hit is worth it because of the pressure of hooks positioned right next to strong loops? That doesn't even offset the time taken walking them to the basement in the firstplace (unless they got downed on top of it or something.) You need to consider all of the factors of the mechanic, as even just putting them down there and walking back out can cost a quarter of a gen (up to 3 individual gens) during that time. And as a bonus, stray hits are once again diluted in value due to the existence of CoH, there's a reason you rarely see hit and run playstyles anymore.

3) You get zero benefits if you are in a chase with the obsession elsewhere on the map, survivors have any aura reading perks for the situation (like empathy and kindred, part of why i promote them so much) or you have any mechanics that betray your position (like clown bottles or other global sounds) so it can be very easy to know when the killer is not fortifying their basement position. Again, it funnels back to the only way to guarantee value is to camp harder.

4) Again, CoH. Each hook stage gives plenty of time for either faster multi-survivor heals, or even 3 individual CoH self cares. And since they can then rush the basement if all 3 are healthy and create a bodyblocking clusterfuck, it stops being a positon of strength on the killer's side while they were expected to be in multiple places at once to try to prevent the situation.

5) this is mostly accurate. My issue is that 10 second bt kinda removes that leverage in all but the most extreme cases, which means you're going to see more facecamping, not less.

Its a running trend with these types of changes, every alternative that can promote more healthy killer playstyles gets nerfed instantly due to one or two killers getting too much synergy from them, so they salt the earth instead of applying sensible caps to said scenarios. The AA nerf because nurse was a monster with it is a great example in this very patch, same with the recent thana giganerf. The complaints about "how bad it could get" were absolutely valid, but both the hypocracy of the situation as well as scrapping tools entirely with hamfisted nerfs means that killers will just keep adapting to more and more "oppressive and unfun" strategies to compensate. Because their alternatives become less and less unless they flat out want to throw the game.

I mean its an asymetrical game, so the 1 should occasionally hold power over individuals of the 4. They have considerably less safety nets in numbers alone, before even getting into assuming things like pairity between efficiency potential of their opposing objectives. Noed and Rancor are iconically good examples because Noed can be disabled before it even activates (just like second chance perks deactivating in endgame) and was even nerfed to minimize its lasting impact by telling survivors where it is, while Rancor gives you an entire game's worth of notification its going to be an issue in endgame so you can prepare accordingly.

Well yeah, they're kinda related. CoH had more impact on playstyles than even DS, and it continues to do so since they only do numbers adjustments instead of adjusting how far its impact actually reaches. I understand that the basement is not always the best decision, but I also understand that this change has diluted a major part of its strength. And you're right, its value comes from how you play around it, to which i say "this will have the opposite effect of discouraging camping, because it made that the only way to guarantee value from your investment."

I don't argue for wanting my side to have an advantage, hell i barely play killer. I just acknowledge that pidgeonholing killer strategies doesn't "fix" problems like this, it only makes people double down and decreases the value of matches for everyone. If they started working on more ways to encourage killers not to camp/tunnel instead of trying to find new ways to slap their wrists about it, we might have had a healthy game start forming a long time ago.

TBH if Noed was basekit, that would lead to even more problems, like hurting boons while buffing pentimento. As much as I think CoH should be nerfed, attacking boons directly turns the other ones from "not very strong" to "gutter trash." Balancing should never really be about removing healthy elements to either side, just fixing unhealthy ones.

Now, if certain situations started having more risks associated to them....

Your anecdotes are not even a fraction of the userbase. None of ours are. They don't account for different regions, different timezones, different MMRs, you have to take them with the biggest grain of salt. For all the times you never see it, there are streamers who will actively call out every single situation where their hand gets forced. Its always important to assume that our individual experiences are only a piece of the puzzle.

The incentives simply are never enough, and they keep getting diminished. Even BBQ/WGLF losing their aura reading hurt going for new survivors rather than camping, because many killers were so focused on taking it for the grind that "they already had it, might as well use its other effect." Now the reason people take it got removed, so the secondary effect's influence is gone. If they removed some of its thousand counterplays we might actually see it again, but the AA nerf due to nurse is more proof that they flat out do not care about incentivizing that type of direction when it will cause survivors to complain more. (for the record, I think the nurse synergy absolutely needed to be addressed, but the lazy way they handled it ruined an incentive opportunity. Exact repeat of the Thana situation.)

I absolutely agree that the same should be applied to survivors as well, more incentives for less efficient play. It kinda feels like thats the direction they went with how absolutely awful some of the challenges in the rifts are, basically forcing you to sandbag yourself for some extra BP and progress. If that was actually their reasoning, its the right idea but terrible execution.

For a while now I've been strongly of the stance that the efficiency cap dilemma is the biggest cause of a lot of these problems, and addressing it would fix things for both sides in a lot of other ways. Survivors simply start too strong and lose too much power with each interaction, turning survivor early game into "maximizing as much damage as possible" and killer side "maximum damage control, while attempting to start progress." Then the late game for survivor becomes "we dont have enough people, i cant do all these things at once" and for killer it becomes "I have plenty of time for these longer chases."

The unfortunate thing is that survivors will complain that the killer is stronger early, while ignoring the fact that they stay stronger and things get less hopeless as the killer gains momentum. Likewise, killers will complain that they have to work harder continuously through the match rather than work hard at the start and then relax the rest of the way. Nobody will ever be happy as long as they put their perspective above healthy balance.

If the game was actually balanced killers wouldn’t have to camp or tunnel.

This is 100% the case. There have always been a certain number of gamers that love camping for whatever reason. It's like when you lose a game of domination in CoD because your teammate is sitting somewhere with grenade launchers etc padding their KD instead of playing for the objective. The game has to encourage them to not camp or highly discourage them from camping if you want it to stop.

As for the original topic there shouldn't be free kills or escapes. If the survivors are all alive and not on death hook it shouldn't be too hard for them to save their teammates and escape unless they make mistakes or the killer plays exceptionally well. If one or more survivors are dead, it should be very hard for them to save and escape. It should all depend on how the game went beforehand. You could argue that certain perks (eg. DS/NOED) ruin this.

Sure maybe low mmr ppl camp because they don’t know any better. But back in the day if you camped that costed you the game. If your team is smart they’ll focus on gens rather than help the survivor.