My garbage idea to dissuade tunneling

Camping, tunnelling, early kills. All things that are not consistent in play or by definition.

If the game goes into the direction of not letting killers be able to have flexibility in how they play in order to win or have fun then what's the reason to play killer if a lot of what makes killer killer is countered, basekit changed, or hard nerfed.

Now I surely can't really explain it good enoguh, but changes to eliminate vague things such as camping and tunneling would only make the game worse. I.e basekit unbreakable and the Mori mechanic.

By your logic, gen repairs and healing others should only be possible by 1 survivor at a time. Reward interaction with the whole map.

Problem with all of that. It happens, but in a smart way.

My last game, Plague had me second hooked. Had her blood vomit.

Knew survivors were nearby or would come back. Feng came back didn't hook trade even though she hasn't been hooked. I died on hook. Sure, plague camped, but it was completely fair as she had all the reason. Skilled enough to know she could run my timer.

Another game, my own. Was able 2 early hooks on a Rebecca. First time regular down. Second time a punished the unhook, not particularly bad, but I wasn't in chase and was close by. She was in the open. Woulda gotten the third hook, but I wasnt enough when I saw Zarina's scratch marks, still tried missed the saw though (Cannibal). Most woulda called that tunnelling. Well, it was fair. Rebecca dc'd when i caught her again. Wasn't even going for her. Yoichi ran me to them. Hooked him she was close by. Ran right past a Yui to her since she was still injured.

Point is, can't look at the bad. Abusable isn't the word I'd use. Sometimes killers are out in the situation where whatever their doing works. Doesn't mean there abusing anything. Another game Legion slugged someone and went for another chase. Maybe it was because she was in the Lampkin house or he has seen the survivor so he left the slug to chase.

Survivors can't infinite loop for good reason. Being able to stall for that chase is lame. They don't even need they 3 jumps as they can just go to the next loop guilt free already.

Actually as I said I like rewarding riskier plays. The riskier play for Survivors is grouping up. I would reverse gen efficiency (except on solo gens). That way it would less efficient solo, same efficiency duo (as current solo per person), and more efficient trio/quad. When the Killer is able to disrupt a gen, they now get rewarded with disrupting multiple people off of gens, and the Survivors get normal/more gen speed. High risk high reward. Since 2 people is the minimum for the current efficiency this would naturally slow gen speeds also.

Similarly I would decrease solo medkit speeds (to 66%) and increase altruistic medkit speeds (doubling all altruistic bonuses on medkits, or providing an equal altruistic boost as the universal boost) such that using a medkit on an ally is more time efficient than using it on yourself (travel time not included). I would also have an additional bonus for co-op healing, giving a 33% multiplicitive boost so a duo basekit heal takes 6s from the current 8s. Again, if the Killer can disrupt the heal then they disrupt 3 people, providing massive value. With my changes the basic brown medkit would take 24s solo, 10.66s altruistic (or 21.32 Surv seconds when accounting for the 2 people).

The Plague game is a perfect example of bad design. She knew she could get away with camping (or facecamping, I don't know the degree for you) rather than chasing the first Survivor in the area, or even toggling. Since you didn't say she got anyone else that leads me to believe she cheesed your timer for the kill rather than used skill to down the other Survivors allegedly swarming hook. She was rewarded for being bad enough to not get a follow up down, not good for getting 1 or 2 more. Similarly Bubba knows he can get away with facecamping out entire hook states. Preventing unhooks for the entire duration of a stage shouldn't be the default or the go to strategy. A surgical 15s punish for a late rescue, sure. But not waiting out the full 60s.

In the Rebecca Bubba example I don't know the timeframe, but the 2nd hook on her sounds like the fruits of camping, and the 3rd hook (if the DC didn't prevent it) was a bad teammate. The third was fair, but how were you close enough to not find someone and returned to hook just in time to chase the Rebecca? That in the vast majority of circumstances isn't "punishing the unhook" that is camping then tunneling the Rebecca. You could fairly punish the unhook if that weren't the case by getting an easy down on the rescuer.

I am confused how you think Survivors "stall(ing) for that chase is lame", but you don't think the same of the abusive scenarios of tunneling or camping. It most certainly is lame being camped out an entire hook state (or 2). It most certainly is lame being immediately chased once rescued off of hook. Both vaulting to evade the killer in chase and camping/tunneling are players accomplishing their goals, that is Survivors surviving and Killers killing, but there should be better checks in place to prevent those worst case scenarios like window blocks/camping/tunneling.

For proper MMR, 50/50 is what you are supposed to go for, with each side being lumped together (aka team MMR), but this 60% is probably meant to account for noob Survivors padding those kill counts. Also for Killers being able to facecamp a 1k minimum if done correctly, padding the kill count despite being a net loss. If the game used team based MMR, averaging the Survivors then adjusting their individual MMR after the win/draw/loss came in (based on the total kills, not individualized), then I think it would work much better. I think the main reason we have this flawed MMR is because part of the advertising is something to the effect of "Survive together or don't". So to accommodate a solo victory or selfish gameplay they have to not actually commit to calling the Survivors a team in the MMR, even though they need to in order for it to work properly.

While thematically I like the idea, practically I don't think it works.

The problem with penalizing tunneling is that, even we say a killer should avoid it for whatever reason, some times it just happens. Sometimes I just happen to run into a survivor again and again without seeing others, sometimes one survivor is just considerably worse than the others (that's not even taking into account suicide rushers). Being forced to intentionally avoid a survivor seems like a bad mechanic.

I think that if tunneling is too powerful/ruining the game, there's an easier solution: Increase the haste effect power/duration. Want to target a specific survivor? You can, but they are likely to take a good deal longer to catch.

Im fairly consistent. The maps and how the loops are a bigger problem. That's just in stone. Change that, then we could see whats up.

Plague prevented a hook rescue and didn't chase the Feng, that is abuse of bad mechanics.

Rebecca still was the first to be downed after being hooked. That has some fault in her teammates for potentially hiding, some fault in her for her pathing, and some fault in you for not seeking her rescuer. The fact you said she DC-ed on her third down without you saying you downed anyone else makes it seem far more malicious from her perspective than you are making it out to be, but at the same time some people DC at the drop of a hat.

This current entity window block mechanic forces Survivors to go to other loops instead of stay at one loop. I'm confused how you think a Survivor staying in one area to loop is lame, but a Killer camping and/or staying near hook in one area is not. Both are the same core problem, and one is basekit addressed while the other is not.

90% of people that get "tunneled" will run like 10 meters after their unhook and crouch in a bush, with cries of pain heard from a mile away.

It's still tunneling. The unhooked survivor has no choice, the unhooker is likely to do it again because they aren't being punished for it. People just tend to overlook that, since it's the unhooker's fault.

Nah. Maps are totally fine. Camp and tunnel is THE problem that is mentioned here all the time MUCH MORE then maps and for way longer time. Maps are way lower prio then camp/tunnel solution

Nah man. Definitely the maps.

I never said all of them. But I will insist, that most of them ARE. At least in my MMR range. For this reason going for the safe unhook is not possible. There is no time given by the killer to unhook safely. Killer will never leave hooked survivor to create such an opportunity.

And I agree that this is killer playing killer. Because camping and tunneling is so easy, yet so beneficial. But that is also not fair. Something boring and easy should not be also optimal way how to play the game. The design of game that makes it all of these 3 things easy, beneficial and boring makes it bad design that needs to be addressed by developers (not by killers. But by developers). So again. There needs to be something done to make the tactics risky or hard to pull off (because making it low reward is not really possible under base premise of this game), so that this tactics is NOT OPTIMAL way to play killer...

So to restate it for N-th time... Developers should hard nerf camping and tunneling. One way how to do this is to give much better tools to defend from camping and tunneling (to address camping - make more perks like reinsurence and buff it. To address tunneling give 10s 150% speed to unhooked person without any collision or anything until conspicuous action is done - that way survivor makes it hard to tunnel him right of hook, but said survivor can't abuse it in any way because he can't do gens or bodyblock for teammates).

Thats a strong ideal and a near delusion on some of the reasonings, which I guess boils down to it being too easy and beneficial and so therefore it should be hard nerfed.

As I said, your definition defines it that way. Mine does not.

If I re-down a recently unhooked. I did that because it was what I thought was a good or best play in the situation...

(It isn't the hard tunneling I'll attribute to any complaints or issues. For the most part at least.)

...Not because I wanted to get them out of the game or ruin their game, which is what I'd account to tunneling.

I respectfully disagree. Imagine survivor could hold 1 specific button to freeze himself and after say 5s of using it, he would transform into stone. And after 5s of holding it again, he would revert. If this was possible - how many survivors would try to loop killer? And how much fun would be in playing the game? If somebody didn't (ab)use this mechanics, he would loose way more. But where is the fun in using this thing? And do you thing forum would have less or more threads like camping/tunneling to remove this from the game?

I mean this example is extreme. But it illustrates the point nicely. I think.

Why you did it is irrelevant. You can dress up tunneling however you want, but at the end of the day it's still tunneling.

It's very clear what tunneling is. Any deliberate choice to target the recently unhooked survivor is tunneling, regardless of the why.

Whether it's to get someone out early, or to ruin someone's game, or because of some larger strategy, or because of a mistake another survivor made, or because they bodyblocked with Endurance.