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BUFF DECISIVE STRIKE!!!
Comments
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I like you idea, but HOW the animation will be after is another important thing.
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The distance gained by 3 seconds is still insignificant to react a pallet or a window, unless you got downed very close to one.
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You put Thana on the same level than DS? Oh boi....
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I will just spare my time to answer to this by showing to you proofs of my view.
Those stacking gen regression / repairing slowdown are terrible. It just makes some that is extremely boring even boring, give a huge advantage to certain killers, but also benefits non-specific killers too in a way to be present in almost every game before 6.1.2.
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I actually agree with OP. Its supposed to be an anti tunnel perk but doesnt work as that. It's weird how the stun duration is shorter than you just wiggling free...like what?
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EXACTLY!!! Something has to change, DS was just fine as it was before. The perk was used to prevent tunneling and to punish severy a unfair game style that gave a huge advantage for one side (killers). From that perspective, if a survivor got unhooked and straight chased by a killer, the unhooked survivor would 1 vs 1 with a huge disadvantage, being injured and closer to death on hook than anyone else. The elimination of one survivor to pressure the other 3 survivors is the idea behind of tunneling. In support to that, it is a fact that with only 3 survivors remaning with 3 - 5 gens to be done, the game will slow down in a huge way, specially with 10 seconds added to all gens in the match + the overstack of slowdown perks like Call of the Brine + Overcharge + Pain Resonance + Eruption (that makes survivors incapacitated for 25 seconds). As a result, killers can have the control over the match easily, unless they really mess up with something.
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Gotta disagree before DS wasnt an antitunnell perk it was a weapon.
I cant even begin to count the number of times i got hit with an undeserved DS, between downing and having the unhooker wiggle out with a DS bodyblock or flashlight save, or faking working on a gen, or just not being able to tell which meg was the one that came off the hook.
No the DS nerf was well deserved because the perk was abused. Now it is an anti tunnel perk, if you cant get to a structure off the hook with the basekit borrowed time that is a skill issue and poor planning on where you went down.
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You have Off The Record now. Its just a different type of decisive strike now.
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So basically, you played poorly, made mistakes that could very easily be avoided by just paying more attention, but the problem was DS?
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No. Now it is a meme perk. Or you can take 2 other perks that make it 3-slot antitunnel perk. Well not even that good version of antitunnel that is...
DS does not help against real tunnelers. Those will hit you during your unhook "stun" when you can't move yet - making OTR unusable. OTR helps only against soft tunnelers = not worth bringing to trial.
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That's the problem. The chase time was reduced by some killer buffs, and the tools to fight tunnelling were replaced by non-efficient ones. As an example, out-of-record can be easily countable by just immediately hitting the survivor after being unhooked. Do they get distance? yes. Do they stop tunneling? No, because they have a survivor that was already injured and is an easy down and easy elimination target from the game to build up pressure.
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There is a video explaining this viewpoint.
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Oh, um, let's see, how about a 4-second test?
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A 4-second test seems reasonable, but I ensure that it will serve as just a band-aid for the tunneling problem. Tunneling was never too much rewarding as it is at the moment. Furthermore, the 4-second Decisive Strike would not be as effective against killers like Nurse, Blight, Spirit, and range-based killers. Moreover, the solo queue experience is the most affected by this issue because the lack of coordination, communication, and information contributes to allowing an easy tunnel for killers. In fact, if you are not SWF, and you don't have DS (because the perk is unusable at the moment), your chances to get eliminated from the game in less than 1 gen are highly increased; as a matter of this fact, solo players are the most vulnerable players to this unfair playstyle.
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Hmmm, I am the weakest player against fair play styles, but I don't really consider tunneling to be a problem because I separate tunneling from the purpose of Survivor as a team. Sorry.
If I die before my 1gen is complete, I will be more upset with my allies for abandoning me and not fixing the generator than I will be with tunneling. Because there is no need to hasten everyone's death without earning a chance to escape because they treated my life politely.
It may seem contradictory, but I want to be matched with an ally who can act unselfishly for the good of the team as a whole.
Therefore, DS needs to be strengthened, but since we have experienced 5 seconds and 3 seconds we should test 4 seconds for a start. If that doesn't work, we will repeat the test in a different way.
Sorry for being so subjective, but this is my opinion.
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Out of Record does not get any closer to being as much practical as Decisive Strike is now. The justification for this relies on the fact that Out of Record is easily counterable by hitting the survivor after he/she gets unhooked. This action denies the survivor the Out of Record value because, in fact, what was consumed by the killer's move was the base-kit borrowed time. Moreover, when the killer does that, it triggers the survivor's deep wound status, making it practically impossible for them to tank another hit with Dead Hard. Additionally, with patch 6.1.0. the killers have 2 Save the Best For Last basekit and survivors' distance from an injury was reduced. The result of this measure is that the distance gained by tunneling conduct was increasingly reduced allowing an easy down for the killer since it became harder to reach a safe zone. For those reasons, Out of Record is not viable to substitute Decisive Strike because there is no substantial punishment for this unfair playstyle. Not forgetting to mention that no one should have to make an entire build around Decisive Strike to make it "work." No one should have to be forced to run DS, Out of Record, Dead Hard, and Unbreakable to counter an unfair playstyle. Logically, if this unsportive conduct was punished severely during a long period of time, why now is this being allowed by the negligence of the Dead by the Daylight Development Team? It does not make sense. it is an evident contradiction, and it should be properly addressed by the sake of the Dead by Daylight Community.
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That's exactly my point, why is it so difficult for the people in this community to understand that tunneling is not countable by the Out of Record, but only for DS?
Out of Record can be easily countable by simply standing still near the hook and hitting the unhooked survivor afterward, denying its "value" since endurance status does not stack. That's it.
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Ds was used as an anti-tunnel perk because, after the restriction of the conspicuous action, the survivor could not contribute to the game's progress without suffering the penalty of losing the perk's effectiveness. Additionally, I reiterate my statement, No One, absolutely, No One forces you or any killer player to pick up the unhooked survivor. If they are on your way, just hit them, leave them on the ground and proceed to chase the other survivor (the rescuer). The survivor on the ground will not do gens, totens, blessings, chests, healing, etc. He/She is just wasting their time being there, and you or any other play gets to benefit from it. For these reasons, there is no such thing named "Forcing DS" because YOU and the other players have a choice, the choice to slug and not tunnel. Therefore, if you have gotten more than 2 DS in a game, this is on your playstyle that is being counterable by a punishing perk.
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Thank you very much for bringing this up to me.
Firstly, tunneling is a problem because it denies the other party a chance of survival by exploiting the opportunity to eliminate a survivor in a timely manner to force pressure on the other players because of the lack of one or more members of the team. Tunneling a player out of the game is a strategy used to eliminate a target making the game a 3 vs 1 / 2 vs 1 / 1 vs 1 in a very short period of time. This conduct, if done in a correct manner, will ensure an unwinnable position for the other team early game or mid-game.
When it comes to your team, of course, teamwork is essential for survival. However, it is necessary to measure it by understanding that tunneling damages a lot of the possibility of the effectiveness of the teamwork because one of your teammates will be dying prematurely. Moreover, your chances to counter it, by body blocking, and getting slugged for the teammate don't stop the killer to go for the unhooked survivor. The reason for that is that now, you (that unhooked the survivor) are injured or down, and the unhooked is easy prey for him. So, as we say in Portuguese: "You are killing two bunnies with one shot." In fact, it will reward the killer if you do that, you won't be doing gens, totems, blessings, chests, etc. So, 2 people are not doing the objectives, which is good for the killer to force pressure based on tunneling that can make the game unwinnable early game or mid-game.
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I never said anything about forcing ds.
Now lets play your game, I go for the unhooker get the down and while I try to hook that person, i get body blocked and they wiggle out and i down the person blocking the hook, pick them up because the other person is gone, and eat a ds.
Am I tunneling? No im not, DS really shouldnt apply here not as an anti tunnel perk anyways.
Instead its being used to avoid the repercussions of an offensive action
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Thanks for your reply.
Sorry for the back and forth because of my poor English, but there is one more thing I am sure of.
No matter what countermeasures are taken against tunneling, tunneling itself will never go away.
It is true, as you say, that a survivor's chances are greatly reduced when tunneling takes place early in the game. (Killers know this and will do it, as long as they understand that they will be at a disadvantage if they continue to keep 4 people alive.)
Therefore, I think it would be nice to have some adjustments that would allow other survivors to still have a chance when early game tunneling takes place. Such as adjusting DS as discussed in this discussion.
So let's say that actually happens. Even if many countermeasures to tunneling were put in place, the fact itself that 3v1 is better than 4v1 for killers would not change. Therefore, tunneling is done.
And indeed the killer is punished by the countermeasures. To get compensation for being punished, we still tunnel.
Thanks to the resulting larger punishment, the survivor gets 3escape instead of 1kill. Survivor wins.
But the tunneled survivor will still be frustrated, as he was, is, and will be in the future. Tunneled, inadequate measures. Nerf Tunneling.
This happens because many players see DS, BT and OTR as perks that completely disable tunneling.
In reality, those perks are perks that extend the chase time to allow the survivor as a whole time to repair the generator. The perk works because it serves its purpose of buying time, but when faced with your own death, you will see it all as pointless.
Hard tunneling early in the game is still likely to detract from the game experience for many survivors more than advantage or disadvantage.
I would rather see the solution be to incentivize the killer to take advantage by choosing not to tunnel. Sorry I can't offer anything concrete.
However, I still remain in favor of strengthening DS.
If there is a possibility for both killers and survivors to enjoy it, then it should be done.
I am happy to discuss this with you, even though we disagree.
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If you concerns rely on an unhooked survivor bodyblocking you, you should run Mad Grit. Now, it does not have anything to do with the DS not being an anti-tunnel perk because you knew that the unhooked survivor had his DS active, and, as previously stated in my post
"YOU and the other players have a choice, the choice to slug and not tunnel." Also, as I mentioned there, "If they are on your way, just hit them, leave them on the ground and proceed to chase the other survivor (the rescuer). The survivor on the ground will not do gens, totens, blessings, chests, healing, etc. He/She is just wasting their time being there, and you or any other play gets to benefit from it." You, acknowledging the fact that Decisive Strike was potentially active, ignored the risks and proceeded with the pick-up action of a player that has been recently unhooked. Regardless of your intent, you did something that would be considered tunneling, as I stated here
"Tunneling a player out of the game is a strategy used to eliminate a target making the game a 3 vs 1 / 2 vs 1 / 1 vs 1 in a very short period of time. This conduct, if done in a correct manner, will ensure an unwinnable position for the other team early game or mid-game." The action of hooking this survivor would be detrimental to the whole team by eliminating a player prematurely. Additionally, if you don't want to be penalized by DS, just do as I said, slug, don't pick up the unhooked. That person is not going to contribute to anything unless you fall for their obvious bait.
Now, sharing my personal experience, I was a Clown main before the update, and I almost never ate DS because I was skilled enough to down a survivor and proceed to another place and pressure gens with slow down perks like Pop and Eruption. If someone wanted to use this perk aggressively, such as any other perk like head-on / blast mine / flash bang / meddle of men, I would just outplay it by not giving them the attention them wanted. It is more about skill and self-control than anything else.
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Hey, you English is really good, don't look down about your skills like that.
When it comes to your perspective of tunneling is never going to end, well, I totally agree with that because some people lose their mind playing Dead By Daylight. They get angry, frustrated; they take everything personally. However, just because it might not end, it does not mean that it should be "legal." I mean, just because people steal money (and it will never end), it does not mean that it should be legal or allowed. That's my main point, if tunneling is an exploitation of the game mechanics to force an easy win early and mid-game (and was punished by DS), it does not mean that it should be free from punishment (rewarding). That's why I advocate for the return of DS because the killers will think twice before doing it.
When it comes to BT, OoR, and DH they don't counter "hard tunneling", as I said here
"Out of Record does not get any closer to being as much practical as Decisive Strike is now. The justification for this relies on the fact that Out of Record is easily counterable by hitting the survivor after he/she gets unhooked. This action denies the survivor the Out of Record value because, in fact, what was consumed by the killer's move was the base-kit borrowed time. Moreover, when the killer does that, it triggers the survivor's deep wound status, making it practically impossible for them to tank another hit with Dead Hard."
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Yes please, you spend almost 1 second getting out of killer's shoulder so the rest of the time is just not useful against stronger killers.
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There is a great anti tunnel build that a lot of competitive survivors use nowdays. Off the record. DS and DH together will allow you to escape most situations.
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As per my last messages, it must not be necessary to make a whole build just to make DS useful. That perk should work for itself since it is an anti-tunneling perk that was designed to servery punishing a unfair playstyle.
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That video was unironically both wrong and right.
It was made during the mid-chapter PTB, everyone was fine with OTR in the middle of the match, the main issue people had with the perk was during the Endgame when generators were no longer an objective, OTR could still activate.
Obviously this changed before it went live; so the entire argument against OTR is non-existent and most people are fine with the perk. But I think it is a good video explaining why OTR is a balanced perk with current OTR.
But that video has always rubbed me the wrong way since it was clearly suppose to say "yall are complaining about nothing" while never actually tackling the main issues people had at the time; it was like saying a car is fine because it has an airbag but ignoring the lack of seatbelts.
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Honestly, OTR was perfectly fine on the PTB. Deactivating on endgame can't really be justified. I get why DS needs to be, because it's a lose lose scenario, but Off The record should absolutely save you in an endgame situation, especially because it only really works if you hooked the person close to a gate.
Actually, DS, DH and DS are all perks which counterinterract with each other.
You can't use Dead Hard if OTR proced.
You can't use DS in most scenarios because OTR makes the chase long enough for DS to be deactivated (or soon deactivated after being downed).
OTR is WAY less effective at countering tunneling than DS ever was. It's a good perk, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't counter tunneling effectively.
DS needs to be baseline 5 seconds, there is just no other way to put it. If they need to add small killer buffs in return, so be it, I don't care, the game is just not interesting playing survivor right now because almost every killer is tunneling and facecamping these days. Basically, these days, you either spend the entire game on a hook, or on a generator.
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No one should get 80 seconds of freedom at endgame. Its good that second chance perks were nerfed to endgame since thats the time when its gloves off fight or die situation. Old DS gave way too many free escapes, DH still does. Off the record working at endgame would be just more busted old DS
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Lol what? DS is dead, it does nothing against most killers and basekit bt is destroyed by bubba or STBFL
DS does nothing at all but help you last 4 seconds more before getting downed again AND puts you as the obsession which is even worse if the killer has rancor..
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DS is exactly where it should be. It makes it harder for killer to tunnel person out of the game early, but can't be used offensively and during end game. Perfect.
If you don't like it, don't use it. There are over 100 better perks.
It can't be buffed without breaking the game again and let's be honest, if you got downed 4 times, you deserve to be dead. This is 4/1 game, not 1/1. You can't perks equally strong on both sides... and current noed is actually weaker than current ds anyway...
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You're suggesting that deactivating anti-tunneling perks during endgame was enough, and DS shouldn't have changed. Even though survivors were given basekit borrowed time, which provides anti-tunneling support, every single time a survivor is unhooked. The killer can do nothing about this but wait it out, unless the survivor makes a mistake and is grabbed.
It's hard for me to think that deactivating anti-tunneling perks was a nerf/buff rather than a fix, because how can one tunnel when all the gens are complete? There's no other objective but to kill survivors. Deactivating those perks at end game prevents abuse, and guaranteed escapes. Even though, basekit borrowed time can still enable a guaranteed escape.
As an aside, I would hate to see the return of locker -> DS -> locker -> head-on.
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This is why DS deactivates at the end of the trial now, and after interactions. Before the recent nerf something that would happen A LOT at high MMR is that during endgame, survivors that were unhooked as or just before the last gen was finished would abuse the perk, by either:
- running over and taunting the killer to down them as their friends opened the exit gates, they'd use DS then dead hard, or friends would body block guaranteeing escape
- or, more commonly, people would use DS as a means to guarantee two escapes
- e.g. you hook kate with one gen left; you chase and down nea; kate is unhooked and healed as you hook nea; kate immediately runs to nea; you hit kate; kate unhooks nea; you down kate, letting nea go because DS; last gen is finished; you pick kate up, she uses DS that's still active; you chase kate; doors are opened; nea escapes; kate is protected by healthy survivors, or uses dead hard, and escapes. Had you chased nea instead, the same thing would have happened, except you would have probably dealt with borrowed time, too.
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Borrowed (baseline AND perk) do work endgame so I don't see why we wouldn't deactivate these, or any perk like Hope, adrenaline... It's a slippery slope we're going.
I don't have a problem with OTR right now, but the nerf was definitely unneeded. Still a good perk though.
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DS deactivates when unhooking.
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I would not play killer and im sure others will agree if survivors had 80 seconds free time at the endgame. It would be bonkers broken. Good survivors will escape nowdays with 10-20 seconds BT and hope equipped, i dont see why they should have more perks to give them 100% escape rate at the endgame.
DS is still used with off the record and DH together making it pretty ridiculous combo. If you take off the record hit and then go down and use DS you won't have endurance anymore and you can DH again. DS should deactivate in endgame. Remember the golden days when survivors would just abuse it and get free escapes?
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As I mentionned above earlier, both DS and Dead Hard are an anti-combo with OTR, nobody plays those together for the same reason Lithe and Spring Burst aren't used together, because using one makes it unlikely to get benefits of the other one.
Now for OTR, it being active in the endgame really doesn't change much of anything regarding escaping, if the guy is hooked, and there are at least 3 survivors left, you're gonna try to force 1-1's anyway. You won't go after the unhooked one, as Borrowed time is a possibility.
Now, if you really point out that in a VERY specific scenario where you want that specific survivor dead because you failed to properly camp in end game, or if you decided not to camp the last hook with 3+ survivors alive, I'd say that a justified change would at the very least to deactivate OTR when gates are OPENED, not deactivated. Because it's unfair to be on hook with two generators left, see all gens being finished, but you don't benefit from OTR for some reason.
OR, make OTR deactivate only if gates are powered BEFORE you're on hook.
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Comp survivors do use those together quite often, and if i have 4 survivors alive at the endgame i will want that unhooked person dead instead of going after someone whos healthy. They nerfed the perk for a reason , It was busted in PTB
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lol no thank you
as a killer, there's nothing more annoying than that perk
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It wasn't busted in PTB, what was busted was the stacking endurence effect, not OTR itself.
And, again, no, no one is playing those "combos", cause they are bad put together. Haven't seen those together once in hundreds of hours.
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You didn't read the comment my comment is in reference to. I'm referring to the way DS used to be, and why it had to be chagned. My comment you're replying to, I say that DS ends with interactions, too.
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DS is in a fine spot. Off the Record is way stronger, anyway. Put on OTR + Sprint Burst and you literally can't be tunneled.
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You can and you will against hard camper+tunneler. M1 when you touch the ground (so OTR does not exist and is wasted perk slot) and sprint burst during on-hit sprint. Depending on killer you can go down in 20-10s later with your build.
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Then that's 3 times he has hook you to kill you. If you can't drop enough pallets within 3 chases to buy your team the 5-6 minutes they need to do the objective, that's on you. And those killers who eat through your unhooked endurance, and then chase you down and down you again within 10-20 seconds also wouldn't be too affected by DS.
DS was nerfed to shift the meta. OTR is meta. Besides, the stun from DS isn't worthless. It just has to be used with intent now. Using DS in a Shelter Woods dead-zone won't buy you much time. But using DS in Gideon Meat Factory, or the middle of Suffocation Pit, and you're beyond safe.
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Not sure how DS is in a good spot, when it requires the stars to align to use it, and you only gain like 10 seconds total. 5 seconds to catch up and 5 seconds to carry the survivor.
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Yes please, it's kinda useless now since it still deactivates at endgame, just make it 5 seconds and it's completely fine.
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