Why do people hate NOED so much?
I play 60/40 survivor/killer, I really don't see it as a huge problem since its an endgame perk where the killer is already losing. By the time you even know the killer has it, both of the exit gates are typically open. It usually just gives the killer an extra kill unless the survivors are dumb and stick around too long or aren't competent enough to do the totems.
Comments
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Because it forces surviors to be careful7
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Personally, I think there are only two perks in this game that are broken.
- DS - Should be limited to one person per match, or change the perk so it slows the movement speed of the killer while he is carrying the survivor for 10 seconds. This is a nice counter to Agitation. (As it stands, there is no counter to iron grasp/agitation other than DS. Boil Over is an absolute joke.)
- Insidious - This is purely for camping. I have yet to see a legit use of this perk, other than to silently camp a hook. It promotes one of the most toxic play styles a killer can have. (Barring situational use of camping - doors open/hook swarming/toxic player elimination.) This perk should not even exist.
NOED is not a problem. Kill gray totems, no NOED. If NOED kicks in and you can't find the totem, cut losses and leave. Don't get too altruistic. It is what it is. If anything, I agree with Tru3talent in that NOED is mostly a crutch perk that limits the player's ability to push him/herself to learn the killer. I only use it if it is part of a specific build, like end game builds with blood warden. More of a gimic than anything else.
I became a much better killer when I stopped using NOED. I used it on Trapper and Pig a lot. I stopped using it, and got better at limiting the survivors even getting to end game.
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I feel like people hate it because it rewards poor performance. I'd just make it so that survivors know the killer has noed when the last gen is popped rather when a survivor is hit. It would give extra warning to the survivors. Also that the NOED totem would be revealed in a small radius so you would have to spend 10 hrs finding it.
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I love noed as survivor, most monkaS situations are when noed is on.
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Survivors hate it because they prefer to pound out the gens in 4 minutes and just trololololol out the gates without consequence.1
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Players seem to hate anything which they deem responsible for turning what they think should have been a win to a loss.
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You guys stop with the "survivor ez mode bla bla bla". Present some argumentation instead of acting like little children such as the survivors you hate so much.
Back on the topic: NOED has the same problem with DS. THEY REWARD MISTAKES. These are both extremely powerful perks which are faulted for the simple reason they are not gained at all. Anything that reward players for being bad IS bad design. End of the story.11 -
@NurseMainBTW said:
You guys stop with the "survivor ez mode bla bla bla". Present some argumentation instead of acting like little children such as the survivors you hate so much.Back on the topic: NOED has the same problem with DS. THEY REWARD MISTAKES. These are both extremely powerful perks which are faulted for the simple reason they are not gained at all. Anything that reward players for being bad IS bad design. End of the story.
RIP Fire Up
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Because it rewards bad players.
It's not uncommon to see killers get 0-2 hooks all game and then end up with a few kills due to one perk.
Not only that but it enables campers to get away with never leaving the hook.
It's hilarious to see people defending it and seeing survivors don't deserve the escape if they can't make it out yet these same people cry foul over DS, instaheals and especially the hatch.7 -
Its not even just that they reward bad players, it's that both perks have the potential to turn the game around in an instant. A simple perk shouldn't be able to do that.NurseMainBTW said:You guys stop with the "survivor ez mode bla bla bla". Present some argumentation instead of acting like little children such as the survivors you hate so much.
Back on the topic: NOED has the same problem with DS. THEY REWARD MISTAKES. These are both extremely powerful perks which are faulted for the simple reason they are not gained at all. Anything that reward players for being bad IS bad design. End of the story.
The devs said they don't want an arms race between killers yet right now we have an arms race between perks.3 -
That perk is a joke and it needs a rework.
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@Tzeentchling9 said:
Survivors hate it because they prefer to pound out the gens in 4 minutes and just trololololol out the gates without consequence.This is just a silly and toxic comment. The normal survivors vs killers bs. Many survivors hate it because it is a crutch. Just like DS is a crutch. Your comment could easily be turned around on killers talking about DS, but that is not helpful. Most people play both killer and survivor and don't see things from just one perspective.
Personally, I run Small Game a lot and hunt out totems. Most don't want to waste the perk slot, so it is much harder to find and destroy all 5 unless you are a coordinated swf, which most are not. So, NOED feels like a punishment to those players for succeeding on the objective. Understandable. I don't agree, but it is understandable.
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I personally love getting outplayed by NOED.
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Sure. Let's turn my comment around.Warlock_2020 said:@Tzeentchling9 said:
Survivors hate it because they prefer to pound out the gens in 4 minutes and just trololololol out the gates without consequence.This is just a silly and toxic comment. The normal survivors vs killers bs. Many survivors hate it because it is a crutch. Just like DS is a crutch. Your comment could easily be turned around on killers talking about DS, but that is not helpful. Most people play both killer and survivor and don't see things from just one perspective.
"Killers hate DS because they prefer to have a hook after chasing a Survivor for several minutes through windows, pallets and exhaustion perks while gens pop off all around them."
I don't know, I don't think that quite has the same ring as my statement.
I play more Survivor than killer these days and I stand by my statement. Survivors have 100% control over wether or not NoED activates, but they choose not too and complain afterwards anyway.1 -
So survivors are expected to do 5 gens AND 5 totems. Also killers cry for gens to take longer, over a minute, also we need more objectives like searching for fuses, also DS and instaheals need to go, also the hatch shouldn't spawn, survivors need to do all 5 gens or die.
At what point do these people just admit they suck at killer?
The problem in this game is the balance. Noed is gonna be used on weak killers like pig and freddy but you see plenty of hillbillys who are on a survivor in the first 10 seconds, constantly instadowning, able to put good pressure on gens and they use NOED and Ruin. At what point is it too much and people just admit that it's unbalanced.5 -
A lot of survivors think they've won once they do 5 gens. Killers getting a last stand power move against them seems unfair because by that point they've already won. If you play around it though it's not nearly as busted as it seems. The killer still has to have been doing work the rest of the match, or they'll likely only get 1 person with it. If they're getting 2-3 then the survivors are playing unnecessarily risky.1
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It's because they dont want to admit they are bad for having it activate. When I lose to noed I dont care because I could have prevented it. It punishes survivor mistakes, they popped gens too quick and didn't get totems. It has counterplay.
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Because they are too lazy to adapt.3
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A lot of killers think they earned a hook by catching a survivor. The survivor still has to hit the skillcheck to use DS.ClogWench said:A lot of survivors think they've won once they do 5 gens. Killers getting a last stand power move against them seems unfair because by that point they've already won. If you play around it though it's not nearly as busted as it seems. The killer still has to have been doing work the rest of the match, or they'll likely only get 1 person with it. If they're getting 2-3 then the survivors are playing unnecessarily risky.
A lot of killers think they earned a 4k when there is 3 gens to go and 1 survivor left. The killer still needs to outplay the survivor at the hatch for that last kill.1 -
It's a safety net for killers. Thats why survivors hate it, any other explanation still contains this fact.
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I don’t mind it on either side, it can be a game changer or it can be a wasted slot I see no reason for it to be changed or removed or hated0
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Much like decisive, it allows poor players to be in a rank they should not be in, just from a perk.
If ur not playing well the entire time until it pops, you don't deserve to win. End Story.
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Because it's easily counterable, and therefore when you get caught, you know it's your own fault. However, humans generally blame other people (their teammates, the killer, the devs) before they blame themselves.
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While I agree about DS to a degree(it isn't as easy to work around as NOED and the problem comes when non obsessions have it) I don't think comparing it to the hatch is quite fair. There's no outplaying once both sides get there, it's just whoever acts first loses. The killer has no tools available to counter the hatch. I don't think getting 3 kills immediately earns them the 4th, but if the survivor knows where the hatch is they win by default and the killer can't stop that. Plus it's a built in mechanic and not a perk.The_Crusader said:
A lot of killers think they earned a hook by catching a survivor. The survivor still has to hit the skillcheck to use DS.ClogWench said:A lot of survivors think they've won once they do 5 gens. Killers getting a last stand power move against them seems unfair because by that point they've already won. If you play around it though it's not nearly as busted as it seems. The killer still has to have been doing work the rest of the match, or they'll likely only get 1 person with it. If they're getting 2-3 then the survivors are playing unnecessarily risky.
A lot of killers think they earned a 4k when there is 3 gens to go and 1 survivor left. The killer still needs to outplay the survivor at the hatch for that last kill.0 -
Ever thought that people specificity play it to be their end game plan?Swiftblade131 said:Much like decisive, it allows poor players to be in a rank they should not be in, just from a perk.
If u not winning the entire time until it pops, you don't deserve to win. End Story.
Ive seen people use this to their advantage in a game and thought yep you deserve that win well played. If you can get one person out of 4 because of NOED I wouldn’t call it a win, and if you get all 4 it most definitely is a deserved win3 -
@Orion said:
Because it's easily counterable, and therefore when you get caught, you know it's your own fault. However, humans generally blame other people (their teammates, the killer, the devs) before they blame themselves.Gen rush is easily counterable.
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I don't hate NOED as much as I hate that so many other survivors don't cleanse dull totems. I'll cleanse four dull totems, be unable to find the fifth and have to hope that someone else got it, only to go down to NOED the moment I pop the last generator. And the kicker is that I'm often the only one to die in those matches, because the other three will just leave.
This may sound like a "sometimes" scenario, but it's not. I had this happen multiple times just the other day, and it was unbelievably frustrating.
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Because survivors like to gamble in favour of genrush and then blame the perk
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As survivor u have to hit a skill check at least, killer side doesnt make sense. No skill perk2
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Yeah let's ignore the fact 99.9% of all killers tunnel and camp to kill the first survivor as quickly as possible forcing (and allowing) survivors to finish gens as quickly as possible.Master said:Because survivors like to gamble in favour of genrush and then blame the perk
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For the survivor that uses DS, that one skill check can spell the difference between a win and a loss. For the killer it gives them one, maybe two hooks, not even necessarily kills. Plus survivor actions can outright remove the perk entirely.xChrisx said:As survivor u have to hit a skill check at least, killer side doesnt make sense. No skill perk
Also if you're good at skill checks you'd realize the DS one isn't that hard.1 -
And that is a good way to force your end game perk, that’s a straight up strategy, and why wouldn’t a killer go for the weakest player, their objective is too killYamaoka said:
Yeah let's ignore the fact 99.9% of all killers tunnel and camp to kill the first survivor as quickly as possible forcing (and allowing) survivors to finish gens as quickly as possible.Master said:Because survivors like to gamble in favour of genrush and then blame the perk
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@NightmareReborn said:
I feel like people hate it because it rewards poor performance. I'd just make it so that survivors know the killer has noed when the last gen is popped rather when a survivor is hit. It would give extra warning to the survivors. Also that the NOED totem would be revealed in a small radius so you would have to spend 10 hrs finding it.I don't understand that poor performance part. I you pick NOED for a specific late game play-style what is poor performance about it?
Remember me
NOED
Fire Up
Blood Warden6 -
cuz survivor just want to rush gens and leave0
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Cuz they want to rush an teabag on gate.
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I'd sacrifice noed in a heartbeat to get rid of ds.
But the major difference between the two at least for me is that when I'm survivor I get scared and paranoid about a potential noed and that's what killers are suppose to do, it brings a little excitement into the game.
But when I'm killer and I get ds'ed and have to go through another chase which not only loses me all that momentum, I find myself behind 1 or 2 gens. It's definitely an unpleasant frustrating experience.1 -
Killers: If the killer camps, rush gens.
Survivors: rush gens
NOED pops
Killers: Do totems.On a side note, I can't stand the argument that NOED counters gen rush. Please stop defending the devs' habit of fixing game play problems with perks.
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@NightmareReborn said:
I feel like people hate it because it rewards poor performance. I'd just make it so that survivors know the killer has noed when the last gen is popped rather when a survivor is hit. It would give extra warning to the survivors. Also that the NOED totem would be revealed in a small radius so you would have to spend 10 hrs finding it.I don't care about NOED or DS. They both can be annoying to go up against, but I like your thoughts on players perception of the NOED perk.
- I feel like people hate it because it rewards poor performance
If this truly is the majority of players perception I as a killer who couldn't care if NOED stays or goes.
- Remove NOED for killers
- Remove hatch for survivors
NO MORE REWARDING ANYONE FOR BAD PERFORMANCE
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What if the killer doesn't camp?ShrimpTwiggs said:Killers: If the killer camps, rush gens.
Survivors: rush gens
NOED pops
Killers: Do totems.On a side note, I can't stand the argument that NOED counters gen rush. Please stop defending the devs' habit of fixing game play problems with perks.
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Id agree to thisTrAiNwReCk said:@NightmareReborn said:
I feel like people hate it because it rewards poor performance. I'd just make it so that survivors know the killer has noed when the last gen is popped rather when a survivor is hit. It would give extra warning to the survivors. Also that the NOED totem would be revealed in a small radius so you would have to spend 10 hrs finding it.I don't care about NOED or DS. They both can be annoying to go up against, but I like your thoughts on players perception of the NOED perk.
- I feel like people hate it because it rewards poor performance
If this truly is the majority of players perception I as a killer who couldn't care if NOED stays or goes.
- Remove NOED for killers
- Remove hatch for survivors
NO MORE REWARDING ANYONE FOR BAD PERFORMANCE
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@ermsy said:
ShrimpTwiggs said:Killers: If the killer camps, rush gens.
Survivors: rush gens
NOED pops
Killers: Do totems.
On a side note, I can't stand the argument that NOED counters gen rush. Please stop defending the devs' habit of fixing game play problems with perks.
What if the killer doesn't camp?
Then that's purely their decision.If they down someone early in the game, camping would pretty much guarantee a tie at least. But if they don't and they apply good map pressure, it makes it very difficult for survivors to take out the totems, especially if they're playing a viable killer. Which leads me to another issue with NOED. It furthers the gap between Solos and SWF even more. NOED is incredibly weak against SWF, but against solos who don't have the same communication, a lot of time could be wasted searching.
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A simple buff to small game would solve that, a counter showing how many totems are left. I think noed adds a flavour of fear and uncertainty when I'm survivor but that's just me.ShrimpTwiggs said:@ermsy said:
ShrimpTwiggs said:Killers: If the killer camps, rush gens.
Survivors: rush gens
NOED pops
Killers: Do totems.
On a side note, I can't stand the argument that NOED counters gen rush. Please stop defending the devs' habit of fixing game play problems with perks.
What if the killer doesn't camp?
Then that's purely their decision.If they down someone early in the game, camping would pretty much guarantee a tie at least. But if they don't and they apply good map pressure, it makes it very difficult for survivors to take out the totems, especially if they're playing a viable killer. Which leads me to another issue with NOED. It furthers the gap between Solos and SWF even more. NOED is incredibly weak against SWF, but against solos who don't have the same communication, a lot of time could be wasted searching.
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@ermsy said:
ShrimpTwiggs said:@ermsy said:
ShrimpTwiggs said:
Killers: If the killer camps, rush gens. Survivors: rush gens NOED pops Killers: Do totems. On a side note, I can't stand the argument that NOED counters gen rush. Please stop defending the devs' habit of fixing game play problems with perks.
What if the killer doesn't camp?
Then that's purely their decision.If they down someone early in the game, camping would pretty much guarantee a tie at least. But if they don't and they apply good map pressure, it makes it very difficult for survivors to take out the totems, especially if they're playing a viable killer. Which leads me to another issue with NOED. It furthers the gap between Solos and SWF even more. NOED is incredibly weak against SWF, but against solos who don't have the same communication, a lot of time could be wasted searching.
A simple buff to small game would solve that, a counter showing how many totems are left. I think noed adds a flavour of fear and uncertainty when I'm survivor but that's just me.
Fair point. I can agree with the small game buff. I run it and it helps, but I still feel like I have to search the map to be sure.
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Not saying that NOED in particular is fine. But in general perks that give you a boost when you are losing are not problematic, however that is only true so long as the boost is less than the snowball from the fact that you are losing (or in otherwords you should never be MORE likely to win now that the survivors have made additional progress). Those gens should always hurt you more than they help you, but that does not mean they can't help you, hence end game builds.
like, a survivor is very likely to escape once the gate is powered, not as likely if the killer has NOED, but even in that case they are still more likely to escape compared to when the gate isn't powered.
DS is problematic because you are more likely to survive a chase after using it compared to when you were initially injured or downed
Or in otherwords a perk can turn a point of failure into a point of lesser failure and still be fair. However it is not fair for a perk to turn a point of failure into a point of success.
Keep in mind that even without NOED it is possible for the killer to win after the gates are powered. Thus having a boost that makes it possible to win is still a point of failure as the gates being powered still makes it highly possible to lose compared to before then.
(I consider blood warden and remember me to both be stronger than NOED in this context since they are more effective at letting you win the game after the gates are powered)
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@ShrimpTwiggs said:
@ermsy said:
ShrimpTwiggs said:@ermsy said:
ShrimpTwiggs said:
Killers: If the killer camps, rush gens. Survivors: rush gens NOED pops Killers: Do totems. On a side note, I can't stand the argument that NOED counters gen rush. Please stop defending the devs' habit of fixing game play problems with perks.
What if the killer doesn't camp?
Then that's purely their decision.If they down someone early in the game, camping would pretty much guarantee a tie at least. But if they don't and they apply good map pressure, it makes it very difficult for survivors to take out the totems, especially if they're playing a viable killer. Which leads me to another issue with NOED. It furthers the gap between Solos and SWF even more. NOED is incredibly weak against SWF, but against solos who don't have the same communication, a lot of time could be wasted searching.
A simple buff to small game would solve that, a counter showing how many totems are left. I think noed adds a flavour of fear and uncertainty when I'm survivor but that's just me.
Fair point. I can agree with the small game buff. I run it and it helps, but I still feel like I have to search the map to be sure.
It sucks that you have to be the one to finish a gen in order to use, but it would be crazy powerful without some type of limitation on it's use.
I have found detectives hunch one hell of a perk, so long as I am on a gen popping to make use of it. That and the killer doesn't high tail it to my location. Seeing all totems/chests/gens within a 64 meter range is so useful, but doubt many use it. I do because meta perks get old and finding totems is fun.
Give detectives hunch some love people!
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I agree that ds is much more of a problem compared to noed as respecting the possibility of a noed as a survivor is usually enough to escape. You just have to take ds most of the time and hope you can resolve the second chase quickly, if not you lose.NuclearBurrito2 said:Not saying that NOED in particular is fine. But in general perks that give you a boost when you are losing are not problematic, however that is only true so long as the boost is less than the snowball from the fact that you are losing (or in otherwords you should never be MORE likely to win now that the survivors have made additional progress). Those gens should always hurt you more than they help you, but that does not mean they can't help you, hence end game builds.
like, a survivor is very likely to escape once the gate is powered, not as likely if the killer has NOED, but even in that case they are still more likely to escape compared to when the gate isn't powered.
DS is problematic because you are more likely to survive a chase after using it compared to when you were initially injured or downed
Or in otherwords a perk can turn a point of failure into a point of lesser failure and still be fair. However it is not fair for a perk to turn a point of failure into a point of success.
Keep in mind that even without NOED it is possible for the killer to win after the gates are powered. Thus having a boost that makes it possible to win is still a point of failure as the gates being powered still makes it highly possible to lose compared to before then.
(I consider blood warden and remember me to both be stronger than NOED in this context since they are more effective at letting you win the game after the gates are powered)
I don't believe remember me and blood warden is stronger. Although Remember me is very strong but promotes tunneling and blood warden is too situational, survivors can make themselves scarce if they know about it and you have to time the hook.1 -
@ermsy said:
NuclearBurrito2 said:Not saying that NOED in particular is fine. But in general perks that give you a boost when you are losing are not problematic, however that is only true so long as the boost is less than the snowball from the fact that you are losing (or in otherwords you should never be MORE likely to win now that the survivors have made additional progress). Those gens should always hurt you more than they help you, but that does not mean they can't help you, hence end game builds.
like, a survivor is very likely to escape once the gate is powered, not as likely if the killer has NOED, but even in that case they are still more likely to escape compared to when the gate isn't powered.
DS is problematic because you are more likely to survive a chase after using it compared to when you were initially injured or downed
Or in otherwords a perk can turn a point of failure into a point of lesser failure and still be fair. However it is not fair for a perk to turn a point of failure into a point of success.
Keep in mind that even without NOED it is possible for the killer to win after the gates are powered. Thus having a boost that makes it possible to win is still a point of failure as the gates being powered still makes it highly possible to lose compared to before then.
(I consider blood warden and remember me to both be stronger than NOED in this context since they are more effective at letting you win the game after the gates are powered)
I agree that ds is much more of a problem compared to noed as respecting the possibility of a noed as a survivor is usually enough to escape. You just have to take ds most of the time and hope you can resolve the second chase quickly, if not you lose.
I don't believe remember me and blood warden is stronger. Although Remember me is very strong but promotes tunneling and blood warden is too situational, survivors can make themselves scarce if they know about it and you have to time the hook.
Remember me and blood warden are not stronger than NOED and that isn't what I claimed. Instead they are more impactful, however it's at the cost of consistency
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@ermsy said:
NuclearBurrito2 said:Not saying that NOED in particular is fine. But in general perks that give you a boost when you are losing are not problematic, however that is only true so long as the boost is less than the snowball from the fact that you are losing (or in otherwords you should never be MORE likely to win now that the survivors have made additional progress). Those gens should always hurt you more than they help you, but that does not mean they can't help you, hence end game builds.
like, a survivor is very likely to escape once the gate is powered, not as likely if the killer has NOED, but even in that case they are still more likely to escape compared to when the gate isn't powered.
DS is problematic because you are more likely to survive a chase after using it compared to when you were initially injured or downed
Or in otherwords a perk can turn a point of failure into a point of lesser failure and still be fair. However it is not fair for a perk to turn a point of failure into a point of success.
Keep in mind that even without NOED it is possible for the killer to win after the gates are powered. Thus having a boost that makes it possible to win is still a point of failure as the gates being powered still makes it highly possible to lose compared to before then.
(I consider blood warden and remember me to both be stronger than NOED in this context since they are more effective at letting you win the game after the gates are powered)
I agree that ds is much more of a problem compared to noed as respecting the possibility of a noed as a survivor is usually enough to escape. You just have to take ds most of the time and hope you can resolve the second chase quickly, if not you lose.
I don't believe remember me and blood warden is stronger. Although Remember me is very strong but promotes tunneling and blood warden is too situational, survivors can make themselves scarce if they know about it and you have to time the hook.
This is only my opinion
The only reason why NOED is a problem at all is because of over altruistic survivors.
- Survivor (A) got hooked
- Survivor (B) opens gate
- (B) is really good or has borrowed time "I can get my mate easy, no way the killer can stop us!"
- (A) i'm getting rescued "This is awesome we are both going to escape!"
Survivor (B) runs FEARLESSLY towards the killer knowing the plan "there's no way I can be stopped, the gate is right next to us as well!"
Killer swings INSTANT DOWN
Survivor A & B "You trash, noob, no good blah blah blah"
The killer was at least going to get that 1 kill, and instead of escaping your friend went in for the save. Survivors should play with some sort of fear saying "Screw this I don't want to take a chance, i'm out of here" NOED changes that possibility entirely and survivors hate that. Like players who camp with insidious. Never ever ever, when facing leather face and see a survivor hooked in the basement will I ever go for the save. And for players who rush in without thinking twice getting mad that they were just downed by an insidious camping leather face only have them selves to blame for charging in thinking it's just like any other game. Survivors blame yourself, not the perks. I have died due to stupidity and instead of coming to complain in the forums I have tried to learn, to accept and work around it.
I will happily struggle till the time runs out to give my team time to gen rush a camping killer, but HATE when I see them run downstairs to the rescue without any thought of their fate.
Only my experience and opinion.
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NOED carries weak killers the same way DS carries weak survivors. I personally don't hate it so much as getting annoyed by how it can encourage and pardon poor plays.
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