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Why do people think an FOV slider for killers would be unfair?
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If 1st person games make them sick, maybe this game isnt for them. I suspect people claim accessibility as a argument winner, but in this case who wouldnt take more FOV. Motion sick and others alike would all enjoy more field of view because it grants an advantage.
You conveniently overlook the second part of my post which allows for a way to grant more FOV at a balancing cost elsewhere.
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Not really comparable since BHVR alliws friends to play together and those friends can use 3rd party software to communicate. The extra comms options is to bring all survivors to a more even performance, so that killer can be balanced against that. Otherwise game balance is unsolveable. Balance for depip squad survivors and solos get annhilated, balance for solo, and killers get wrecked.
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I've seen zero people on these forums make any effort at all to suggesting real killer buffs, to balance killers if survivors get extra communication added to the game. Survivors will either just say "just buff killers" without giving any actual suggestions, or they will say killers don't need to be compensated because their kill rate is high enough, or they'll say only the low tier killers need to be buffed.
I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, on these forums to make actual solid effort suggestions on how to compensate killers.
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First person games let you adjust the FoV for that exact reason, despite your attempt at gatekeeping. Its been a solved issue since the days of games like Quake. I've also already stated and provided reasons for why more FoV isn't always better, and why some people might have reasons for preferring (or even needing) lower FoVs.
I overlooked your idea to force a penalty for the ability to play the game without getting sick because I pointed out that its a completely flawed premise. People who need the option in the first place are already disadvantaged by the status quo, and you're telling them to trade one penalty for another. Thats not how accessibility works.
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they're going to see my arm sticking out from that tire i was immersing behind of
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I think there will need to be data about what kind of buff and how much. Currently killers enjoy a nice comfy 61% vs 39% advantage over survivors so its premature to just start throwing out buffs.
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And there you go. Once again we have zero ideas from the forums. If solo q buffs were really so important so survivors, you'd think that someone would have put a solid effort by now to suggest actual real killer buffs for compensation.
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There is a difference between just throwing out buffs to satisfy killers, and creating the appropriate buff to keep the game in balance. But if pressed, I'd focus on information for killers since that is what survivors would be getting. Longer duration aura visibility, modify ranges to include more area for detection, maybe make generator repairs louder, etc. I would also move slowly here to avoid whipsawing game balance. If possible these buffs for killers would be specifically to mitigate high skill survivors and swfs to further close the gap between swf's and solos
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I don't think you understand how much of a massive buff it is to give survivors extra game information for free. Most SWFs don't get massive value out of the extra information they get, because most SWFs only involve 2 people. Giving extra game information to survivors makes every game have 4 connected survivors, and that is whipshawing game balance.
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Same here. There is no difference for the Survivors... The Killers would really appreciate something like this though. It won't change the kill rates so I have no clue why it hasn't been addressed yet.
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How are you still getting spun in 2022?
It is like the easiest thing to counter as killer.
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On console, with aim dressing and bad fov? Not on your life is it easy. But my main argument is why we even need to counter something so silly. Why does the killer have a sewing needle-sized attack hitbox, and can easily miss someone right in front of them?
Come up with something other than "Lol, you're bad."
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That issue happens even when not spinning. It is not strictly tied to a spin.
”come up with something other than Oh you’re bad”
Ok…” buy a PC”
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I have run shadowborne for the last 11 months. It doesn't really give any advantages at all other than being able to see people at your feet a little better. It's literally an f tier perk, it may or may not even affect you in 10 games as a survivor compared to the base kit bt that survivor's got. I am 100% fine with bt base kit but that is actually a strong affect unlike shadowborne. I really don't even care about shadowborne base kit at this point personally because I am accustom to and fine with running three perks forever, but everyone else deserves it at literally no cost to you survivor's.
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So I have to buy a PC, and another copy of the game which I can't even link, to play the game because the console port is so poorly made? When is BHVR hiring you as their PR director?
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Sorry, but I just can't follow the thought process.
Now according to you, BT is/was the strongest Perk. But the constant crying (at least if you followed this forum regulary) was about DeadHard instead. Some people said that Iron Will was the strongest Perk (Scott Jund was one of them). But for others it was Object of Obsession (you know, because of the whole "see the killer at all times and relay his exact GPS coordinates to all team members in realtime while someone is in a chase to counter any killer mindgames"-trope). Lot's of people, lot's of opinions. But sure as hell there no consensus about "THE STRONGEST PERK"™.
So why again is this about "BT for Shadowborn"? Because you sifted through the Internet and found ONE post on reddit about it.
Also, BT becoming basekit was just another bandaix fix for a gameplay issue. Prior to Patrick mentioning it in a dev stream there were no discussions about making BT basekit, aka getting a bandaidfix. And nobody needed to be "onboard" with any of the changes anyway, because the devs just change things.
And people mentioning their ailments to justify game changes when it's convenient (Flashlights causing "epileptic episodes", now FOV causing nausea), just rubs me the wrong way and it feels like those people are desperately looking for any reason to act as a "PRO" because they just don't have strong arguments to make their case.
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They are reviewing my resume as we speak ☺️
/s
I was obviously not serious with telling you to go and buy a pc but you also assumed that I somehow knew that the issue exists on console and that you were also on console.
For PC players this is not an issue so my guess is that there are other many issues similar to what you described, on console. Problem is I don’t think they could restrict movement like that.
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There are a metric ton of accessibility issues still in the game that have been discussed for years, and the "convenient" ones you mentioned are not new, nor have their requests for the game design to actually fit them. The new map has a red fog ffs, no colorblind filter is going to help you see red auras, blood, or red-orange scratch marks through that since there is no contrast to be had. People bring up accessibility issues to the devs because they are constantly oblivious to their impact, not because they want X side to be better or worse. Like usual, people fail to understand that the people affected by accessibility issues are already playing at a detriment due to conditions beyond their control, and they just want a more even playing field. All of this pointless offtopic balance ranting disrupting these topics just serves to further suppress the information that actually is on topic, so I really wish people would take those arguments elsewhere so things said on page 2 and 3 don't need to continuously be repeated on page 6 and 7.
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Better visibility of survivors IS a advantage. How strong of one depends on the killer and the way the survivors play.
Comparing this to BT is a false equivalency. Borrowed time was given to survivors because killers were playing in a way harmful to the player base.
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You don't even understand what affect FoV has on "visibility of survivors." Higher FoV increases peripheral view but decreases focused view. You can literally blend better without moving vs a higher FoV than you can vs a lower one, since peripheral vision is based more on movement detection than actual sight. Higher FoVs are literally a buff to blending into the environment, they're only a nerf to running right next to the killer to try to get into their blind spots.
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Players running stretched views to see more would disagree. BHVR had to patch that out because of the advantage it granted.
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Might as well post the reminder from page 2.
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Please read my exact wording again - I said one of the strongest perks, not the strongest perk. I think most people would agree BT was one of the strongest, even if opinions differ as to it being THE strongest.
And this isn't about "BT for Shadowborn", this is about FOV being added as an accessibility option. When people "mention their ailments to justify gameplay changes", it's probably because those ailments are causing issues for them? I'm not really sure what you expect. Flashing lights have a known link to epilepsy, getting clicked in the face a lot is a flashing light. I think they should've just added an option to turn the visuals for flashlights off, rather than nerfing their click speed, but you can't exactly tell someone with an ailment that they're just making it up for a gameplay advantage.
There have been plenty of strong arguments backed by science presented in this thread, I recommend going and reading some of the stuff @Ryuhi has posted, for example; they've been very enlightening :)
But I think this idea that people are "just making it up" is unhelpful at best, and outright toxic at worse. Low FOV has been linked through both scientific research and experience to motion sickness; this isn't an isolated incident of one or two people. There have been a lot of people in this very thread who have testified to the low FOV causing nausea, and while I understand the suspicion that we're just making it up, it really feels like we're being told our health is less important than minor gameplay elements. I'm sure you can understand how that would build resentment. ^_^
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Stretched res was an issue because it increased vertical FOV on survivors and killers who fatigued (e.g. Nurse, Legion), no? An increase to the killer's horizontal FOV wouldn't provide that same issue.
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They actually won't! Increased horizontal FOV doesn't let killers see around corners any more than usual; it just increases their peripheral vision to include more on the screen at once. If you have something between you and the killer, they're not going to see you no matter how much FOV they have. No need to worry about that. ^_^
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I mean... this is kinda what I mean when I say I feel scorned, and I'm sure others like me can say the same. First person games don't usually make me sick, because most of them have more than 87 FOV, and/or an option to adjust my FOV to something I'm comfortable with. Adding an FOV slider, even just between 87 and 102 degrees, would be such a minor change - but it would make a world of difference to me and many others who suffer from motion sickness. It constantly feels like we're being told to just shut up and deal with it, when the change that would drastically increase our quality of life would have barely any impact on everyone else whatsoever.
While I do understand the hesitation to implement anything that could be considered a gameplay element - skepticism can even be healthy - please, take a moment to reflect. Have you ever been able to tell a killer was running Shadowborn? If killers could get Shadowborn as a basekit perk, would that really have such a huge impact on balance?
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Beautifully put. The field is being normalized. An FOV slider is a pro-balance change.
Post edited by Jallybwan on2 -
and you conveniently overlook the downside that having a larger FOV means the flashlight blind angle is larger.
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Why would there be a slider? That's like having a slider to make your killer slower. Why would you ever do that? Higher FOV gives a massive advantage, so who would ever have it low? A slider makes no sense at all. Might as well have a slider for how often your killer M1 works.
If you just increase FOV overall, it will be a buff. Which plenty will be against. I'm not against increasing the FOV, but a slider is pointless. It would be a slider to handicap yourself.
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At this point I'm convinced people don't even read the topic. All of these points have already been addressed multiple times.
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Not the same thing, it was stretching the vertical fov so much, that people(mostly a survivor thing) could see over loops they should not be able to.
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Still don't see a reason not to add it.
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That's not entirely true. When you increase FOV, you see what is around you a bit easier at the cost of clarity when it comes to seeing farther. As the camera gets wider, objects seem farther. If you put on Shadowborn, you'll notice farther objects are a bit harder to see, but you can see more objects around you. This means that a person with a higher FOV may miss a distant visual cue like a crow flying off, but see what is happening closely around them a bit better. Higher FOV is not inherently a good thing, it's simply all about preference. Some people don't like the wider view because of the fisheye effect, while others need it because of their motion sickness.
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I'm not against just straight up increasing the FOV, but there are some people who say they're more comfortable at a lower FOV. I wanted to accommodate those people as well, is all. ^_^
Also, with higher FOV, it gives less of an advantage than you might think. This coming week, try swapping one of your perks out for Shadowborn and keep it locked in. If you wanna change builds, you have to leave Shadowborn in. At the end of the week, see if it gave you the same value as the perk you swapped it out for. That's probably the best way to simulate what us motion sickness sufferers have to deal with.
Double also, in DBD specifically, a higher FOV actually makes you more susceptible to flashlight blinds (source: wiki, Shadowborn's page), in exchange for a few degrees' worth of extra info you could technically find by just looking slightly left or slightly right. I think instead of calling it a massive advantage, it would be more accurate to say it has ups and downs, no?
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Great explanation!
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PSA: Increased FOV would actually buff stealth, not nerf it. Higher FOV means you're making what's already on screen smaller to fit more of the environment in, so as long as you're not moving, you take up less of the screen. It also buffs flashlights (source: wiki page on Shadowborn) and doesn't allow killers to see over/around things they couldn't already (increases peripheral vision only; does not change the angle you're looking from).
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Not every change requires a compensatory negative to balance it. Some things are changed because they need to be changed and any change in balance that comes with it is acceptable or intentional.
Expanding the killers FoV would only make it easier to deal with 360s, and potentially prevent survivors 'hiding' on the killer's toes. Both of these things should happen anyway, without the need to compensate with survivor buffs.
Much like how DH needed to be fixed the way it was to prevent it being abused to whiff killer powers, like dashing over traps, etc. This was not a "survivor nerf", it's not a point scoring exercise against one side or the other, just a QoL change that needed to happen.
That said, a wider FoV does come with a negative aspect already. A wider blind angle, making flashlight saves easier.
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so if the current kill rates are 60% and buffing killers by increasing their field of view made it 65 or 70%, survivors should just suck that up...okay
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That's not how stats, kill rates, or FoV work.
If FoV had a significant affect on kill rates, Shadowborn would already be meta.
If it did have a significant effect then of course it would require compensatory balancing, but this is one of the things that doesn't. As I said "not every change".
Plus you can't know if a change in one aspect has an effect on kill rates if change another thing at the same time. You have to study variables individually.
The 60% kill rate itself is useless information.
Is it higher because DH got nerfed? Or because gen times were increased? Or because huge swathes of the survivor playerbase are deciding to kill themselves on hook out of protest?
Who knows.
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If anything, increasing the killer's FOV could arguably be considered a nerf. You have a wider flashlight blind angle, and that's much more significant gameplay-wise than being able to see in front of you a little easier.
It's not about buffs or nerfs, it's just about simple accessibility changes that this game needs. ^_^
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I had to change my 1000 euros 21:9 for a stupid 16:9 just for this game :') would look amazing on different resolutions
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You honestly think increasing FOV would increase kill rates by 10%? This is disingenuous. If that was the case, Shadowborn would be far more popular. Everyone knows that if you replace Shadowborn with a strong regression perk you'll get more kills. When survivors check the killers perks it's not Shadowborn they're gonna complain about.
I think we can safely add Shadowborn basekit, monitor the results it has on killrates, and decide accordingly.
Isn't it pretty telling that BHVR added the "Last Survivor" FOV increase under "Accessibility" options? I don't care how the game was designed 6 years ago before the devs even knew how the game would play out. That argument is outdated and not even necessarily a good representation of what direction the devs want the game to go today. Not that you said anything about that, but many claim this is the "Original balance decision" by the devs when in reality I wouldn't be surprised if it was a default option in Unreal Engine.
Add a slider, add a toggle I don't care. It's lame to balance the game around it being inconvenient to play.
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Well said. ^^
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I don't disagree with the accessibility, but let's not pretend that FOV is the biggest issue, and whether you like it or not it changes how killers receive information. Wider field of view = more information. Killers already have tools for dealing with flashlights.
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This! Running around a console killer isn't skill, it's taking advantage of joysticks being hard to use and the limited FOV. I don't struggle with it an incredible amount, but there are times where I miss and I roll my eyes. It's not hard to take a few steps back, or strafe sideways, which usually works, too. But, the limited FOV doesn't make sense to me.
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If people genuinely believe that having an FOV slider will boost kill rates 10-20%, they're severely overestimating what the ability to just see more will do.
Being able to see more doesn't make your hatchets into homing missiles or your chainsaw into a laser cannon. Killer players have a right to be able to play more comfortably. It may affect kill rates positively. But it would be nowhere near significant enough of an increase as it would be a positive change to allow players to play more comfortably/without having to rely on perks to alleviate physical discomfort.
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Yeah but the more information the more you have to process it so you can gloss over some survivor sitting in a dark corner compared to lower fov where you dont have to look as much.
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Thank you. People like you keep me coming back to these forums. Otherwise I'd feel like I'm going crazy.
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You continue to overestimate the impact increasing FoV has on the hide-and-seek aspect of DBD. It really, truly will do next to nothing. In the years I've spent addicted to Shadowborn, in the hundreds of matches I've used it, I can count on one hand the number of times I saw a survivor thanks to the increased FoV. And it wasn't even because of the wider range of vision; it was because the wider FoV was simply less disorienting to look at.
"Killers already have tools for dealing with flashlights."
Okay? That doesn't change the fact that an increased FoV objectively makes getting flashlight blinds easier. Survivors have a tool for killers having eyes; it's called "hiding," yet here you are adamant in the belief that an FoV slider is some kind of doomsday device for stealth.
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