This game promotes bad gameplay
The most effective tactics to win as killer is to proxy camp and tunnel.(which survivors flame and always badmouth you for it because its toxic which can be really disheartening when you play a video game and wanna have fun).
The most effective tactics to win as survivor is to rush gens and do nothing else which is boring.
I firmly believe that the reason there is such a big amount toxicity in Dead by Daylight community is the core gameplay of the game that promotes bad gameplay because the best tactics are considered toxic,unfun and boring which creates an insane amount of toxicity.
Its not the people that start to play this game that are toxic,its the game itself that makes you become toxic especially if you dont take extended breaks from the game.
Dead By Daylight is a great game with a great idea ,and focused on the worst parts that are the core gameplay loop
Dead by Daylight is a great game with great ideas on paper,but when it comes to gameplay,its like they took the worst gameplay mechanics,and just focused on them,instead of trying and fixing the issue.
I always get flamed if I tunnel,camp,even thought I know there are survivors nearby,and if I leave I just give them a free unhook and lose pressure.
Playing Dead by Daylight feels like making the right decisions to do better in a match is toxic and makes you feel bad.
Queuing as killer just to know the survivors will absolutely hate it just makes you not wanna play at all knowing you gonna deal with a high amount of toxicity.
Edit: 1 thing I want to add.
You can literally never go wrong with tunneling.
If you tunneling there are two outcomes.
1 . You get a survivor out of the game early that makes your game a lot easier and applies a lot of pressure on the remaining survivors.
2 . Survivors come and take hits for the tunneled survivor,which means it forces them to get off gens,take hits,heal,which is a lot of time from them not genrushing.
But here's the thing,most survivors wont do that because most survivors play in soloq and play for themselves.
Even to this day,I barely see any survivors that learned the best way to deal with a tunneler is come and take hits for them then go heal.
But survivors in soloq play greedy and for themselves.
Its almost poetic that they end up losing because they didn't wanna help their teammates and play as a team,as the game is intended when playing survivor.
Comments
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I see you really, REALLY like to use the word "toxic".
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Just stop paying attention to the commenteries of how you play the _game_
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Every game when it is optimized becomes boring because the best tactics to win are usually safe and methodical and for the most part boring.
No one is forcing you to play that way if you wanna have fun, you're the one limiting yourself because you want to win. And to win you have to use those tactics either as killer or survivor.
This game is 6 years old, by this time people have narrowed down the best tactics that are low risk high reward.
I would love as a survivor to have more perks and the game to be more focused towards chases, but I don't think killers would be happy about that either (killers are still complaining about Dead Hard and even Windows of Opportunities because they can extend chases).
You can simply just go for 4 aura reading perks if you wanna play in an exciting way but people would rather run 3-4 slowdowns because they are so much safer. You don't have to chase everyone in that case especially good loopers, you can find the weak link force him to drop pallets therefore using up resources and then downing everyone becomes easier AND you get slowdown on top of that. SO the game can reach a state where no more pallets are left but survivors still have 2-3 gens to finish.
Unlike aura reading where you have to be excellent at downing survivors at the right time and committing to the wrong target will cost you more.
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The game gives you choices. You can be a saint or a devil. I think it is a large experiment to study human behavior.
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Yeah, pretty much correct.
The sad thing is how much potential this game has.
So many games as survivor you face a killer who is only interested in making the game a 1v1 until he can take that first survivor, and then suddenly the killer is all too happy to spread hooks when he is in an extremely advantageous position. It is so boring. It also ruins MMR. No one is where they should be. There are SO MANY players who get carried by their SWF who have no idea how to loop, take aggro, make a good play. And there are SO MANY killers boosted by first hook tunneling the first survivor to death and then relying on busted perks like Eruption to win against survivors they shouldn't be beating.
For years moris and keys were super OP. And using them gave such a ridiculous advantage to the side that used them. It taking the devs years to fix those thing should tell you all you need to know about the balance team.
Final thought: when I as killer am skillfully spreading out hooks and quickly winning chases, it should not be true that rather than what I am doing the more optimal play is standing next to the hook and denying the unhook, then promptly chasing the unhooked person.
So often when I am going for the 12 hook win I know that had I just camped a hook stage I would have won with the 4k. It is so skilless, yet it is the best strategy.
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I thought a bit more about your post and I want to say that this game has the most irritating things you can do to the opposing team than any other. You got the power make others players gameplay absolutely miserable, and there are so many ways to do that, unlike COD or OW where you just kill each other and move on. The game design that hooks you on negative emotions and you can't let it go. You go to bed angry, wake up and proceed with this unholy circle of bad behavior.
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Well the company name is BHVR,so maybe not that far from the truth lol
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no thats not the games fault, that is because everyone wants to win in a 4v1 game. And where the 1 is way stronger in a 1v1 normally. Where rng and teamplay are a deciding factor, where skills bring you only so much.
If people would get off their high horses and think the opponent has to cather to them, then DBD would not have such a heated community.
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It doesn't,but for some reason in this game,a lot of people seem to think otherwise lol.
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It'd be decently easy to make the game reward skilled and varied playstyles and punish BMing. The mechanics are there. And I'd say that'd be extremely good for the overall QoL of the game and community.
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i gotta say i have nowhere seen so much flaming going on over your opponent in a pvp game like in this community XD its insane
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"No one is forcing you to play that way if you wanna have fun, you're the one limiting yourself because you want to win."
I think you sum it up quite well. A lot of killers* will complain that their games are too sweaty and no longer fun, but instead of letting go for a bit and accepting a few losses to remain in a bracket where they can mess with chill builds... they'll double down, say "to hell with it" and bring the most sweaty builds they can, not realizing that they're running headfirst into sweat city, which is precisely what they were complaining about in the first place. And the longer they'll spend fighting fire with fire, the furthest they'll be from chill brackets when they'll finally be tired of all the sweat and salt. Same with players doing 100 win streaks, and then complaining about sweaty games when they're back into chill mode.
*I'm saying killers particularly because unless full SWF, survivors do not gain anything by lowering their mmr, only worse teammates.
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its the game that puts you in a certain circumstances not "people on high horses".
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I agree,I think the way this game works is what makes the players be toxic,frustrated,and complain a lot.
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so snipers camping your spawn location in Shooters, foe fraction players hustling your starter city in mmorpgs and opponent players spamming the best macro combos at you in fighter games dont exist?
i dont see people flaming others for all of these in those forums. Only here, in DBD. Which even doesnt have a real win conditions, you get bloodpoints no matter what is happening.
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okay i play battlefield since part 1 and i play wow for 18 years and all of those things are utmost rare, while annoying af shet here in dbd happens in every single match. almost any interaction between the opponents bring irritation and frustration.
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i dont want to be rude but maybe quit then.. I didnt play Battlefield but Battlefront, which is from the same developers.. And i cant even count anymore how many times my 4000 killpoints heros got nuked by some 300 killpoint spaceship, to a point where i stoped bother anymore and just played soldier class or special forces class at that point, cause your heros anyway only live so long. Not to mention the maps, you knew where snipers are, you also knew you cant do anything but to take a sniper of your own. Basicly who ever had the better snipers that fraction wins. Aside from empire who has Artillery that wins them all games anyway.
Sitting on a hill with your sniper for the whole game or running around in an AT-ST the whole time is boring af, yet the most effective way. In DBD you at least have rng part and diffrent abillitys, survivors, perk loadouts. Sure the core gameplay keeps the same, but there is always an altenating factor to it.. It would be almost perfect if there wasnt so many flaming going on.
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It's called gameplay objectives. The main objective is escaping which entails the objectives of doing 5 gens and opening the gate. That's it. If you don't like this then are you sure you're playing the right game? Are you sure you shouldn't be playing killer for other objectives?
The rest is pretty much subjective and the last thing you'd ever want to say about subjective game related things is generalizing and dictating the motives for other players' reasons to play or enjoy a game or anything basically. As soon as you start doing that you're pretty much in the wrong from the beginning. On the contrary being very specific and verbal about what you think and how you yourself see things unfolding is fine. If you want to farm your teammates and yourself because you want to be overly altruistic instead of progressing the game if the killer is camping then I'd say that's pretty much your own choice
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Playing Dead by Daylight feels like making the right decisions to do better in a match is toxic and makes you feel bad.
To be fair i think this applies to all online PvP games but the asymmetry of dbd makes it more apparent.
For example in Overwatch if you play the best hero, the enemy team will probably get annoyed at you in particular. However your team will probably appreciate you and the enemy team can you just pick the best hero too so it's barely an issue.
But in DBD none of that can happen.
For someone to win in an online game, someone else must lose.
It's effectively zero sum and it's why personally i am slowly backing away from online multiplayer games. When i want to have fun i want everyone around me to have fun too but this is clearly not possible with online gaming.
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It's a fact that tunneling guarantees you at least a 3k. The game needs something to address tunneling, and no perk can solve this problem.
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Four years ago this game was really fun. killers would break chases, patrol gens, use cunning tactics, and survivors understood how to play and have fun. Matchmaking worked effectively. As the game became more complex in scope and the new generation of spoon fed participation medal kids arrived, the game did not evolve its structure to shepherd these sheep into striving to challenge themselves to play harder, because experienced gamers know the best and most fun gameplay comes from challenging yourself and improving your skills. This game has no structure, baby gen rushers end the game in three mins while the killer tunnels the one loop god the entire time… their minds are not being fostered into gaining skills in the game. I think by now both the players and the devs know that the game performs better and people like it more during a holiday event. It goes to show how boring and uninspiring the base game is with no structure inside of it.
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This does make the assumption that everyone is good enough that they can do that and fall into a better MMR (when that even works).
From my weird experiences with matchmaking over the course of playing at random times of day, if I threw every match against people competent enough to realise "split up and sit on gens" is efficient, I'd wind up playing where I might as well not bring perks. Seen one too many games where the only perk that actually factored into anything was Lethal Pursuer by default of applying at game start. <_>
Post edited by RainehDaze on0 -
I would love to hear OP's definition of what "toxic" is because apparently to them it's catchall that means whatever you want it to.
"How's the weather today?
"Toxic AF "
"Ah. Of course."
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It promotes player choice... and people don't like that cause:
Camping and Tunneling take a player out so they can't play... and there's no counter to them
OP perks aren't fair cause a group of players can't counter it
Killer are OP cause there's no counter to them
Looping is bad cause there's no counter to it
Mindgames are OP cause there's no counter to them
Hiding is annoying cause there's no counter to it
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It's not bad gameplay. The game is an elimination game. So of course eliminating survivors quickly is ideal for killer.
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That depend of the mindset you play the game. If you try to achieve a 4k at all cost it promotes bad gameplay, but if you play chill and just want to have fun chasing survivors (as my case) the gameplay is good. Unfortunately a lot of killer players are obsesed with the 4k and play like scumbags taking the game too "competitive". In my case is more satisfactory to hook the survivors 8 times and by winning chases and mindgames even if they scape than killing the four survivors by tunneling, camping and usind disgusting perks like NOED. I only tunnel and camp when they rush gens and I almost don't have hooks for obtaining a little satisfaction at least and for punishing them for playing like scumbag themselves.
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If you dont mind getting teabagged and gg ez after they escape,that's cool.
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I have more time and leeway to enjoy chases when there's fewer people left and it's not "take too long on this one chase, everyone's immediately out, the game took less than five minutes, and you get no BP".
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And the most effective way to win in Overwatch is to use bastion, the most effective way to win in pokemon is to have a rattata hold a focus sash and know quick attack and endeavor, the most effective are usually the most cheapest
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Speak for yourself
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I wouldn't really call FEAR rattata an effective way to win. It's a gamble, because many things hard counter the strategy.
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The only thing I can think of right off that bat is a priority move from the opponent, regardless, if your opponent isn't expecting it, it would probably work, lol
I also saw it happen for the first time and I was amazed, lol
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Ghost typing counter it. Sandstorm counters it. Leftovers counters it. Burn/Toxic counters it.
FEAR strats can certainly get a KO, but actually winning with only FEAR is harder because you're bound to encounter one of the above things.
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I don't even know if lowering MMR works. Like there are times when I win and next game I get a Meg prestige 1 who dies last but somehow manages to get less points than the Jake who died first (this really happened, I have it recorded) and then I play again and get better teammates somehow despite having lost.
I think after some time searching for suitable participants the game just picks whoever is waiting to be matched, and big part of that is small numbers.
Even though League has probably 10 times or even more the amount of daily players I still have to wait 1 min or more at times like night etc, or when I have people in my team who are very low MMR. But DBD still is much faster at matching you, although League's players are more numerous because it actually takes MMR into account.
When I saw the steamchart recently it was a real Lightbulb moment for me and when I take into account the logistics of this I feel less frustrated because they really cannot do otherwise. From now on maybe we should be seeing less threads about MMR and more about how DBD is supposed to attract new players AND retain them, which would make the overall experience better AND in time we could finally get the correct implementation of MMR. It's just that with bad MMR new players get stomped and we have the problem of retaining them afterwards. Overwatch 2 and League are free to play, no need to buy them but of course you can always spend money on cosmetics and passes etc (for League that is), which I think might be appealing for many newer AND younger players who may not have the money to buy a game even if 20 bucks especially in other countries with a different currency. Of course in that case cheating and hacking would have to be addressed a lot more as it has the potential to become more prominent if the game is free. So it's really a balancing act all in all.
As for killers, I do sort of agree with you. As in, the same way people used to call Dead Hard a crutch for average and bad survivors I think the same can be said about many bad and average killers. The game has definitely nerfed chases for survivors but buffed the ability to down a survivor for killers (see DH rework, reduced distance gained when hit, buffed Bloodlust). Chasing is the more interactive mechanic compared to kicking and regressing gens or holding a 3-gen and proxy-camping. So as a result those perks that slow down the game a lot have gotten stronger not only because they are reworked but because their "counter" for solo survivor which is not going down has been nerfed as now survivors are supposed to go down at some point (unless the skill level between survivor and killer is completely unmatched). So a killer who just got into a 2-gen chase can still turn the game around by slowing down the game for the last 3 gens especially if resources like pallets have been halved. And if the guy he downed first was the strongest looper, well now it's easier to down the guys hiding behind gens. And even if one of them is decent if there no more pallets left but 2 gens or 1 gen left to do, good luck trying to get the killer to chase you or lasting in chase enough (depending on the map). It feels sometimes killers are stuck in different patches where killer was probably more difficult maybe (I cannot know for sure, maybe it wasn't and they were biased back then as well).
Plus if solo gets nerfed by nerfing looping (because to be honest that is the best time to save time and tyhe more exciting one) and teamplay is buffed for SWF but solo can't follow, then it's to be expected that at higher levels killers will also face SWF more often as those teams have the tools to deal with the current meta best, which seems gen-focused to me.
I also play builds that probably can be really bad. If I run DH, Blastmine, Flashbang, Residual Manifest (which I do run cause duh fun) then if enemy brings Lightborn, I'm only left with DH lmao. Would I like it if this combo was stronger? Yeah, of course. I would like it if Blastmine progressed faster if you worked with a teammate (currently it progresses only by how long you spend on a gen, not how fast that gen works) or if you used a toolbox, same with Flashbang. And I would also love it if Flashbang could be carried with other items and you didn't have to drop your item to get the Flashbang or being able to store 2 and maybe Residual Manifest having a little bit of extra (like either longer Blindness duration or also making the killer unable to see scratchmarks). All those perks also require good timing (except maybe Blastmine) and feel really rewarding to get right, and I'd definitely be an advocate for them to be stronger for solo queue because as it is you really have to be super good at flashbangs and Flashlights and this build still suffers if the killer brings 4 slowdown perks. Regardless I still run it because I find it extremelly fun and rewarding when even part of it goes right. And again like I said, a single Lightborn can really counter it. And even then for Flashbang and Residual Manifest you kinda have to play a bit sub-optimally by going into lockers to craft your flashbang every time and searching for chest to get your flashlight for Residual Manifest.
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I stopped worrying about the tbags and gg ez since I was 600 hours or less in the game.
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Also, a lot of the more fun (and sometimes meta) perks are lurking on licensed characters. So, not only must the game be bought, you either need to wait for a lucky shrine selection or pay more for a DLC pack or auric cells for that character.
Although, I have to point out--Survivors are meant to go down. They've always been meant to go down in a chase eventually. It's why most infinites were removed way back, why windows get blocked, why Bloodlust was introduced... if a Survivor can't get out of a chase, it's supposed to eventually lead to their getting hit.
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You can go wrong tunneling. If you choose to tunnel a survivor who knows what they're doing and have a build tailored to extending chases, the killer can easily find themselves with 1 or no gens left before that survivor is even dead and they have no chance to win the match.
Just choosing to tunnel is not an automatic win for killers. They have to tunnel the correct targets and they have a time limit.
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True about DLC characters and perks. Like Reassurance currently and back then Decisive Strike when it was still strong.
Sure, but you're are supposed to go down faster now. That's why Bloodlust kicks in faster.
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Oh yeah, I guess leftovers are one of the S+ tier items a pokemon holds isn't it?
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I would say it's more exaggerated in this game though. While you are correct game's typically become not as fun when gameplay is optimized. In this game killers play in the most boring way(tunnel and camp) and survivors play in the most boring way(pre-throw and w). It really is uninteresting compared to high level ow or league for example.
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High level League and probably Overwatch too, can showcase some really high mechanical skill from certain champions and players, in DBD I think that mechanical skill is more avoided and mostly limited to killers like Nurse and Blight (and maybe Wesker too). But for survivors the most mechanical play you can make is hug the structures too tight or do a 360 which does not work on experienced killer, and maybe DH, or CJ tech which again works mostly on inexperienced killer. And the meta can make a game boring on high level as well, currently DBD is going through a gen focused meta which is rather boring and tank metas in League can also be boring because people rather see stuff like assassins or warriors who are the mechanically skilled ones for the most part (but I'd say that even tanks can be somewhat mechanically intensive as they do have skillshot based abilities that you need to heal).
That's why playing against Huntress can be so fun for survivors as well.
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Yeah that's exactly what I mean, in league the game only gets more skill expressive and interesting until pro play.
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I think the game promotes bad game play because its 4 people against 1. The group of 4 amplifies and reinforces the bad behavior put forth by usually 1 or 2 of the groups members. The solo player responds as if bullied and itself becomes mean in a natural response.
It feels kind of dumb to allow this to grow, and to reinforce the behavior with in game rewards.
I think a good fix might be to regulate game coms by incorporating a vastly superior communication system into the game itself. Add tutorials that focus solo survivors on playing with your team and a reward system for that that reinforces team work, not necessarily escapes. And finally discouraging killers from tunneling after the much harder to implement but foundationally necessary first work is done.
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Being so confidently incorrect is actually impressive.
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Because its a word that resonates a lot with the dbd community,what's your point?
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My point is you are arbitrarily applying it to EVERYTHING.
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Not everything in this game is toxic,I was reffering to what causes the toxicity.
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The screwed up thing is that camping used to be an INEFFECTIVE strategy. it was toxic because if you spent too much time at a hook you lost the game.
Now, unless you're playing against a SWF with full gen-based build you don't have to leave the hook. You just get your first down, you stay near the hook, that survivor either dies on the hook (and in many cases disconnects from the game) or you get a free down from the first survivor who goes for the save.
Tunneling just becomes an extension of this strategy.
When killers have to pressure gens (or lose the game) suddenly they camp less, which means they tunnel less. Killers need to naturally be pressured, or else the game devolves into what they are good at - which is camping a downed or hooked survivor.
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Well the very idea of the game is too hook and stop gens.. The whole game play is trying not to get hooked and saving your teammate from the hook… which means the killers job is too keep you hooked…
the community that calls hook camping toxic is 100% wrong lol, it’s actually part of the point of the game that I don’t think was done on purpose. But gladly most of the community that is wrong has the best way to play the game that is more fair and makes the game more fun
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The game attracts a LOT of casual gamers. It's kind of to be expected.
Bad skillsets. Bad gameplay.
Just equip a good cosmetic and don't take the game seriously.
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