For those who claim that winning is defined as pipping

@Ryuhi said:
The official source is that the game has multiple rewards and metrics that are not tied to what you guys are equating to a finish line: Blood points, emblems (and consequently pips,) daily challenges, personal improvement, and actually having fun are all separate from your oversimplification. You are welcome to hone in on a single true false statement as the entire core of the game. Others not sharing your opinion is arguably the only reason it hasn't died like many other games. If the only win condition you can possibly have involves a heavy amount of random chance, it will produce games that are impossible to win. In a game like chess, there is no randomness to movement patterns of other rules. There are no hidden abilities or the ability to bring extra pieces to the game. You also don't need to rely on sharing turns with up to three other players, nor having to go against 4 opponents simultaneously in real time. A structured game with no random element is the antithesis of an asymmetrical one that might as well be attached to a slot machine.

The thing is the devs can only balanced for one of these metrics. Bloodpoints was the old metric, and people abused it. Kills was a metric for killer and it wasn't very balanced. Emblems so far has been the best metric we've had so far, and is the current one used by the game to determine a win.

This is why I keep saying if you want to play for whatever, fine, but don't be mad at the game when things don't go your way. The game is not meant to be balanced for that so you will have games where it doesn't work in your favor. Hatch games are part of that equation. SOMETIMES you have just accept that survivors escape. Too many killers refuse to just accept that and draw out the game (re: slugging thread) to get a 4k, just like some people will do nothing and sit and wait for hatch every game. And those are both stupid goalposts to set TBH, because it just means that you will get salty when the game doesn't go in that way. Same goes for survivors too on whatever thing they be doing.

@Ryuhi said:

@TrAiNwReCk said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@NuclearBurrito said:
Since you can pip without sacrificing. That means you can pip without achieving your only stated goal

"Patrol the area and find Survivors."
"Chase, injure, and catch Survivors before they escape."
"Carry Survivors to a sacrificial hook and hang them there for The Entity to consume."

None of these listed objectives state "sacrifice survivor" or use the word "kill", nor do they state you MUST do these things. If you do everything listed here WELL ENOUGH, you pip. If you also sacrificed/killed them, it still fits within these rules because if you find>chase>injure>catch>hook them 3 times that's just the end result. In such a case where they die it means you did very well, and are awarded more for a win than usual (double pip).

@NuclearBurrito

You will have to learn to forgive certain forum trolls that want to be right at the expense of common sense. A wall of text "blah blah blah blah blah" x100 so most people glance over and figure they might be right.

Fact #1

• If you die in a trial - You have lost
• If you don't kill all 4 Survivors -You have lost
• If you don't die in a trial -You have won
• If you kill all 4 Survivors -You have won

Fact #2

• Pipping - Has nothing to do with winning. Had thesuicidefox any _COMMON SENSE_ pipping obviously . . . OBVIOUSLY has only to do with rank. And for everyone scratching their heads still . . . If the ranking system did not exist than pipping would not exist

P.S. It is truly sad that people who simply want to be right, will stop at nothing to try and convince everyone else and themselves that they are right. Even if it proves them to be ignorant and wrong.

Keep up the common sense postings Nuclear. There isn't much intelligent life on these forums, but maybe some of ours can rub off. . . Probably won't happen though.

Stating opinions as fact is why this topic has yielded nothing in the first place. many people could easily believe that:

• If you waste the killer's time so badly that you are his only kill - You have won
• If you are able to end every chase before getting bloodlust - You have won
• If you are able to get any kills vs a very well organized SWF - You have won
• If you are able to juke a p3 nurse and buy your team a ton of time - You have won
• If you are playing with a friend in SWF and you are able to save them at your own expense - You have won

for example. There is nothing in the game that tells them they are not allowed to believe any of that, just that they will be focusing on something other than a single metric in the game (survival/sacrifice)

It is not an opinion. This is so sad that it must be explained.

When do you WIN or LOSE? When the game is OVER This in itself is proof pipping does NOT depict if you win or lose.

Anyone who puts together winning/losing and pipping is clueless and they are beyond help as common sense escapes their comprehension.

This thread "FOR THOSE WHO CLAIM THAT WINNING IS DEFINED AS PIPPING" is answered simply in that pipping is not a win condition. It is a function within rank. Any other crap you can fabricate to make it sound otherwise is just that.

Take away RANK and you don't PIP what now genius? I guess no one can win or lose by YOUR opinion of winning.

Give yourself a good pat on the back for not having a clue what's fact and opinion.

@powerbats said:

@TrAiNwReCk said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@NuclearBurrito said:
Since you can pip without sacrificing. That means you can pip without achieving your only stated goal

"Patrol the area and find Survivors."
"Chase, injure, and catch Survivors before they escape."
"Carry Survivors to a sacrificial hook and hang them there for The Entity to consume."

None of these listed objectives state "sacrifice survivor" or use the word "kill", nor do they state you MUST do these things. If you do everything listed here WELL ENOUGH, you pip. If you also sacrificed/killed them, it still fits within these rules because if you find>chase>injure>catch>hook them 3 times that's just the end result. In such a case where they die it means you did very well, and are awarded more for a win than usual (double pip).

@NuclearBurrito

You will have to learn to forgive certain forum trolls that want to be right at the expense of common sense. A wall of text "blah blah blah blah blah" x100 so most people glance over and figure they might be right.

Fact #1

• If you die in a trial - You have lost
• If you don't kill all 4 Survivors -You have lost
• If you don't die in a trial -You have won
• If you kill all 4 Survivors -You have won

Fact #2

• Pipping - Has nothing to do with winning. Had thesuicidefox any _COMMON SENSE_ pipping obviously . . . OBVIOUSLY has only to do with rank. And for everyone scratching their heads still . . . If the ranking system did not exist than pipping would not exist

P.S. It is truly sad that people who simply want to be right, will stop at nothing to try and convince everyone else and themselves that they are right. Even if it proves them to be ignorant and wrong.

Keep up the common sense postings Nuclear. There isn't much intelligent life on these forums, but maybe some of ours can rub off. . . Probably won't happen though.

This is the height of hypocrisy because you agree with them what they're saying is true and must be accepted as truth while those that disagree ar trolls.

What's really sad is you dismiss others and insult them and thus proclaim yourself as the messiah while also saying they're unintelligent for having a different opinion than you.

That's the very definition of a troll.

"FOR THOSE WHO CLAIM THAT WINNING IS DEFINED AS PIPPING"

Shame people cannot stay on topic, they get lost in wonderland with other aspects of the game which have nothing at all to do with the topic.

Pipping is a rank mechanic. Take that away and you don't have pipping. Which means anyone linking pipping to winning or losing could never figure out if they win or lose.

It's amazing how so many write a wall of text to such a simple thread topic. It's not complicated.

You win/lose when a game is OVER.

• You die - you lost
• you escape - you win
• anyone escapes - you lost
• no one escapes - you win

It is literally that simple. Anyone's feelings or opinions to the contrary adds up to a wall of text which is not factual in any sense nor does it stay on topic.

@powerbats said:

@TrAiNwReCk said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@NuclearBurrito said:
Since you can pip without sacrificing. That means you can pip without achieving your only stated goal

"Patrol the area and find Survivors."
"Chase, injure, and catch Survivors before they escape."
"Carry Survivors to a sacrificial hook and hang them there for The Entity to consume."

None of these listed objectives state "sacrifice survivor" or use the word "kill", nor do they state you MUST do these things. If you do everything listed here WELL ENOUGH, you pip. If you also sacrificed/killed them, it still fits within these rules because if you find>chase>injure>catch>hook them 3 times that's just the end result. In such a case where they die it means you did very well, and are awarded more for a win than usual (double pip).

@NuclearBurrito

You will have to learn to forgive certain forum trolls that want to be right at the expense of common sense. A wall of text "blah blah blah blah blah" x100 so most people glance over and figure they might be right.

Fact #1

• If you die in a trial - You have lost
• If you don't kill all 4 Survivors -You have lost
• If you don't die in a trial -You have won
• If you kill all 4 Survivors -You have won

Fact #2

• Pipping - Has nothing to do with winning. Had thesuicidefox any _COMMON SENSE_ pipping obviously . . . OBVIOUSLY has only to do with rank. And for everyone scratching their heads still . . . If the ranking system did not exist than pipping would not exist

P.S. It is truly sad that people who simply want to be right, will stop at nothing to try and convince everyone else and themselves that they are right. Even if it proves them to be ignorant and wrong.

Keep up the common sense postings Nuclear. There isn't much intelligent life on these forums, but maybe some of ours can rub off. . . Probably won't happen though.

This is the height of hypocrisy because you agree with them what they're saying is true and must be accepted as truth while those that disagree ar trolls.

What's really sad is you dismiss others and insult them and thus proclaim yourself as the messiah while also saying they're unintelligent for having a different opinion than you.

That's the very definition of a troll.

The way you conduct yourself in most threads I see you post in very self centered and anything contradictory to your feelings or opinions are quickly dismissed based on thin air because you can't back anything you say with fact or common sense.

You complicate everything to the point you need to convince yourself you are still correct. I keep things simple and to the point.

Not even a year since you have been a member on these forums and already 6,000+ You live on the forums instead of playing the game you claim to know so much about. I bring fact to my posts, not feelings or opinions unless stated otherwise.

People can't handle the truth (apparently not), so bring on the trolls.

@Paddy4583 said:
Look the simple fact is: 
You believe a win for you is a 4K 
other’s believe it’s pips.

Why do you care? You play to your winning conditions and they can play to theirs.

Its not really a good idea to site the in game pages that state nothing at all about 4ks being the grounds of a win, it simply lists all the realivant ways you can earn BPs and achieve the emblems which link to the pips. 

Its not not hard to understand why people see this as the games mechanics of awarding players. 

At at the end game survivors are clearly listed in order of points gained, not in revere order of survival.

If people want to go into the game and say I got the most BPs I won, then let them, if they take a personal win from pips, let them, and you can have your win conditions. It’s so pointless trying to make this an argument.

Perhaps the thread is unnecessary. People are entitled to their opinion, but I don't fault the OP for seeking out an answer based on fact instead of opinion.

Many post to the forums hoping to find like minded individuals who can help make sense of the game/balance what have you, but end up having long winded, opinionated people that bring no resolve or enlightenment only annoyance and frustration.

What's more is that people can't even stay on topic, bringing up things outside the scope of the OP only to compound the annoyance of more opinion. Which is only an attempt to fabricate fact from opinion.

@powerbats said:

@TrAiNwReCk said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@NuclearBurrito said:
Since you can pip without sacrificing. That means you can pip without achieving your only stated goal

"Patrol the area and find Survivors."
"Chase, injure, and catch Survivors before they escape."
"Carry Survivors to a sacrificial hook and hang them there for The Entity to consume."

None of these listed objectives state "sacrifice survivor" or use the word "kill", nor do they state you MUST do these things. If you do everything listed here WELL ENOUGH, you pip. If you also sacrificed/killed them, it still fits within these rules because if you find>chase>injure>catch>hook them 3 times that's just the end result. In such a case where they die it means you did very well, and are awarded more for a win than usual (double pip).

@NuclearBurrito

You will have to learn to forgive certain forum trolls that want to be right at the expense of common sense. A wall of text "blah blah blah blah blah" x100 so most people glance over and figure they might be right.

Fact #1

• If you die in a trial - You have lost
• If you don't kill all 4 Survivors -You have lost
• If you don't die in a trial -You have won
• If you kill all 4 Survivors -You have won

Fact #2

• Pipping - Has nothing to do with winning. Had thesuicidefox any _COMMON SENSE_ pipping obviously . . . OBVIOUSLY has only to do with rank. And for everyone scratching their heads still . . . If the ranking system did not exist than pipping would not exist

P.S. It is truly sad that people who simply want to be right, will stop at nothing to try and convince everyone else and themselves that they are right. Even if it proves them to be ignorant and wrong.

Keep up the common sense postings Nuclear. There isn't much intelligent life on these forums, but maybe some of ours can rub off. . . Probably won't happen though.

This is the height of hypocrisy because you agree with them what they're saying is true and must be accepted as truth while those that disagree ar trolls.

What's really sad is you dismiss others and insult them and thus proclaim yourself as the messiah while also saying they're unintelligent for having a different opinion than you.

That's the very definition of a troll.

Truth is backed up with facts. Opinions that generate a wall of text only at an attempt to fabricate fact is an annoyance that does not lead to any type of resolve or enlightenment. And to continue to pile on with even more opinionated unsubstantiated replies is very troll like behavior.

There has not been any word written with intent to insult. If one finds the truth insulting than the problem lies within the one insulted. They should probably seek help and I hope they do.

@NuclearBurrito said:

@TrAiNwReCk said:

@powerbats said:

@TrAiNwReCk said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@NuclearBurrito said:
Since you can pip without sacrificing. That means you can pip without achieving your only stated goal

"Patrol the area and find Survivors."
"Chase, injure, and catch Survivors before they escape."
"Carry Survivors to a sacrificial hook and hang them there for The Entity to consume."

None of these listed objectives state "sacrifice survivor" or use the word "kill", nor do they state you MUST do these things. If you do everything listed here WELL ENOUGH, you pip. If you also sacrificed/killed them, it still fits within these rules because if you find>chase>injure>catch>hook them 3 times that's just the end result. In such a case where they die it means you did very well, and are awarded more for a win than usual (double pip).

@NuclearBurrito

You will have to learn to forgive certain forum trolls that want to be right at the expense of common sense. A wall of text "blah blah blah blah blah" x100 so most people glance over and figure they might be right.

Fact #1

• If you die in a trial - You have lost
• If you don't kill all 4 Survivors -You have lost
• If you don't die in a trial -You have won
• If you kill all 4 Survivors -You have won

Fact #2

• Pipping - Has nothing to do with winning. Had thesuicidefox any _COMMON SENSE_ pipping obviously . . . OBVIOUSLY has only to do with rank. And for everyone scratching their heads still . . . If the ranking system did not exist than pipping would not exist

P.S. It is truly sad that people who simply want to be right, will stop at nothing to try and convince everyone else and themselves that they are right. Even if it proves them to be ignorant and wrong.

Keep up the common sense postings Nuclear. There isn't much intelligent life on these forums, but maybe some of ours can rub off. . . Probably won't happen though.

This is the height of hypocrisy because you agree with them what they're saying is true and must be accepted as truth while those that disagree ar trolls.

What's really sad is you dismiss others and insult them and thus proclaim yourself as the messiah while also saying they're unintelligent for having a different opinion than you.

That's the very definition of a troll.

Truth is backed up with facts. Opinions that generate a wall of text only at an attempt to fabricate fact is an annoyance that does not lead to any type of resolve or enlightenment. And to continue to pile on with even more opinionated unsubstantiated replies is very troll like behavior.

There has not been any word written with intent to insult. If one finds the truth insulting than the problem lies within the one insulted. They should probably seek help and I hope they do.

I obviously agree with your conclusion (of the win condition) but you really sound like a conspiracy theorist and that really doesn't help

Nah, just blowing things outta proportion as others have.

@Paddy4583 said:
@NuclearBurrito you only balance on 1v1, so on a 1v1 who would you say needs the rebalance?

Balance isn’t just about evening the “win” ratio, and it’s also irrelevant what is classed as a win, because you get nothing for it, the only thing useful after a match is the BPs, rank and emblems mean nothing.

I don’t believe 1 of the objectives should be the focus of balance to declare winning, the real argument you have is you want the game to be balanced around the 4K.

I might have missed it. Where did Nuclear state anything about balance? If they did I am interested in reading it. The only argument I see Nuclear trying to make is that claims of pipping decides if someone won or lost is false, unless it is an opinion which everyone is entitled too.

@NuclearBurrito said:

@Delfador said:
@TrAiNwReCk

Any sane person would say that the balance will be achieved when each side has 50% win rate.

nonononononononono

Balance is when there is an EQUAL winrate. That does NOT mean that it is a 50/50 winrate.

Remember a balanced battle royal with 100 players and no teams has a winrate of 1% per players. (so solo que in fortnite)

In any game where you have more than 2 sides you will not be expecting a 50/50 winrate and since each survivor wins and loses separately from each other that means they are not a team and need to be counted separately.

In throne of lies for example the average winrate is 33%, this is recognized by the community and encouraged because people understand that the lower winrate makes the game more fair and interesting.

There is no particular reason why you can't have winrates below 50% when you have more than 2 win combinations (not counting draws which don't exist in this game anyways) If all survivors won and lost together then yes you would want a 50/50 winrate. However since that isn't the case you would expect a winrate of more like 30-40%ish instead with 20% being the lowest

That's interesting. I never thought of it like that. I didn't know you were involving win rates in your OP. I'm out of the loop when it comes to win rates. I remember the devs mentioning win/escape % on certain maps which I thought was interesting. Anything other than that I haven't heard about.

@Delfador said:
@TrAiNwReCk

The mistake you are making is that your win condition is just like any other game that is not asymmetrical.

There is a huge problem with 4k=win, not 4k=loss condition for this game.

Any sane person would say that the balance will be achieved when each side has 50% win rate. As a killer, if you have better win rate, you also rank up and considered to be a good killer just like LoL. If you can win more than half of your matches, you are good. Then what happens if you don't win as a killer?

You get 3k for example.

If in 50 matches you get 4k and in another 50 matches you get 3k, you have 50% winrate according to your logic. Good, seems balanced but then you take a look at the survivor side, out of 400 survivors that played against you, only 50 of them won the match. Their win rate is something like 12.5%. Where is the balance for survivors?

Your logic applies to deathgarden. If the killer can stop runners and kill them, he wins but if he can't, even if some of the survivors die, he loses. For this reason, it is easier to achieve balance in that game than in DbD.

You act like your opinion is a fact but it really isn't. There is a reason why survivors have a free escape mechanic that robs killers' 4k easily.

What is the win condition then? I really don't know.

A win condition isn't variable, either you do or you don't. That is fact unless their is an ability to come out to a draw. Which this game clearly doesn't have unless a timer was implemented perhaps.

Because many don't want to accept what a win is doesn't make it less factual. If someone 'feels' like they won because they only got 2-3 kills or pipped that's fine. The point, and the OP can correct me if I am wrong, was to figure out why so many consider pipping a win when it clearly is not even related to winning or losing.

People are welcome to feel a certain way or have opinions, but when others are flaming someone for having the right mind of stating pipping is not winning, and they claim the contrary because they feel a certain way about it.

Again, it doesn't change the facts.

@Delfador

You don't have to respond, but was curious if anything in my reply makes any difference? We can agree to disagree. Hoping for further feedback.

_Again, my only stance is on the OP "FOR THOSE WHO CLAIM THAT WINNING IS DEFINED AS PIPPING". Anything involving win rate% or beyond relating to the simple correlation between winning and pipping isn't what I am addressing. _

@NuclearBurrito said:

@TrAiNwReCk said:

@NuclearBurrito said:

@Delfador said:
@TrAiNwReCk

Any sane person would say that the balance will be achieved when each side has 50% win rate.

nonononononononono

Balance is when there is an EQUAL winrate. That does NOT mean that it is a 50/50 winrate.

Remember a balanced battle royal with 100 players and no teams has a winrate of 1% per players. (so solo que in fortnite)

In any game where you have more than 2 sides you will not be expecting a 50/50 winrate and since each survivor wins and loses separately from each other that means they are not a team and need to be counted separately.

In throne of lies for example the average winrate is 33%, this is recognized by the community and encouraged because people understand that the lower winrate makes the game more fair and interesting.

There is no particular reason why you can't have winrates below 50% when you have more than 2 win combinations (not counting draws which don't exist in this game anyways) If all survivors won and lost together then yes you would want a 50/50 winrate. However since that isn't the case you would expect a winrate of more like 30-40%ish instead with 20% being the lowest

That's interesting. I never thought of it like that. I didn't know you were involving win rates in your OP. I'm out of the loop when it comes to win rates. I remember the devs mentioning win/escape % on certain maps which I thought was interesting. Anything other than that I haven't heard about.

Technically the exact winrates aren't part of the OP. However they are very important and a big part of why this matters in the first place.

Also I'm just into the math behind this, it's very interesting.

Right on, I will follow the conversation, but can't add anything too it (might be a good thing rofl). Maybe I'll learn a little something. The numbers are a bit beyond me.

Thanks for including me in the post!