Is it Time to Remove the Killer’s Red Stain?
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Dude this argument gets old. 10k hour players are not common, just because Otz is popular doesnt make him a typical killer nor his mmr. Most matches are not 10k players battling it out on comms vs the killer. Most are solo and duo q not on comms, if they are on comms they're not doing clock call outs like Hens team or something lol.
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I’m a survivor main who rarely plays killer (only for challenges). I won my last two games as killer before making this thread, and haven’t played since. Re-read my original post and you’ll see I intentionally presented it in a way to create a general discussion, hoping to leave little room for negativity- but somehow people here still always seem to find the negative in everything. Sigh.
I don’t have a horse in this race- just wanted to create a thread that wasn’t complaining about something, like the many we see on here.
Not being able to loop is a skill issue. I think some people are getting experience mixed up with skill. You can still be bad at the game but be experienced. When I refer to experience, I’m referring to being familiar with basic game mechanics (button layout, objective of the game, how items work, familiar with killer powers, perk familiarity, etc.), how killers move, killer powers, and map familiarity. But again, let’s not get stuck on my idea to help new players- it’s just ONE idea I came up with and it doesn’t have to be THE answer. I’m looking for you guys to chime in with suggestions of your own to help new players (if the stain was to be removed).
Very true.
I always felt like KWF/KYF(?) mode should receive a slew of toggles/settings/customization, and everything you listed should be included in that. Once the lobby is created, it can go public (if desired) and randoms could join for a portion of the main game’s BP. As a horror enthusiast and former immersive player, I could definitely get behind this.
I personally don’t want anything- I’m asking you guys on your thoughts.
No clue. Prob not since the killer is in first person and has an extremely limited FOV.
Interesting…🤔
Interesting as well…
All valid points and interesting take…
Valid…
Whippets can’t be half as bad as whatever smart ass3s & negative people use to cope. J/s
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A single call out from a duo can save 20-40 seconds. You can do that 3-4 times per game and get extra time without needing a perk. That breaks the game.
Everyone who is not in "mid/low" ranks is hating the game because the survivors bring stupidly strong items and rush the gens in ~4 minutes. The killer is forced to hook the first person three times or they lose. Bronx just made a video saying nearly exactly that. Otz said the same thing today on his stream.
The red light doesn't really help the average players and it completely breaks the game for the good players.
Scratch marks are there to encourage the killer to chase off after someone in the distance. Barbeque was added to the game so that killers could see the aura of someone far away from the hook so they would not camp people on the hook.
Scratch marks are a punishment for running and a reward for walking. The whole "mind game" nonsense was the developer cop out because most of the tiles they designed in the game are not fair for the majority of the killer roster. Many of the better tournaments take place on three or four maps because almost the rest are one sided. Scratch mark removal would be more akin with the killer's terror radius removal.
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You know how people always say : we need to give solo players more information relative to SWF teams.
Imagine if we had a PTB where they removed the red light from the killer if you are playing in a SWF. If you want the ability to have more information from the light then you have to give up voice coms.
That's the kind of change that would make people say wow.... SWF has a huge advantage but solo play has a huge advantage too. Otherwise there is no reason to play solo. Play in a SWF and you have up to a 15% higher escape rate. Meanwhile Freddy was nerfed for having a 4% higher killer rate.
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scratch marks are there so that killer does not loose survivor in chases. If removing the red light should be there because it provides free info for looping, scratchmarks should be removed because they provide free info for following the survivor. Leave all the free info, or remove it all. And let killers follow only by sound and guessing correctly. Same way as survivors will only listen to sound and guess correctly in chases. Same idea. It will make the game more frustrating for both sides, because it will be more about guessing then acting on information, but the frustration will be equal for both sides
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-Leave all the free info, or remove it all.
So remove the auras of downed surviovrs for other survivors. Remove the aura of survivors on a hook for everyone. Remove the hud that shows who is hurt. Remove the hud that shows how many times each survivor has been hooked from survivors. Remove the indicator that shows how many generators are finished. Remove the indicators that show where the doors are for a few seconds. Remove the killer's terror radius.
Are we done being unreasonable?
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Just because people are playing in a swf does not mean they always use coms, some people just want to play with others that know what they are doing... Also if we look at really skilled survivor players like Hens or Zubat you will see them solo most of the time, since playing in a swf with other really really good people just becomes doing gems simulator and that's really boring, I think Hens said something between those lines when he was asked why they did the escape streak only once a week.
And even if solo kept its information advantage in the way you want it what keeps people from just writing in chat on which dbd channel to join and then use comms anyway? No matter if solo or swf if people really want to use communication they already can...
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Remove info perks, remove generator auras, remove gate auras, remove all steps being so damn loud, remove crows appearing on survivors doing nothing and by doing so change the game to pure hide & seek. As I said before. I don't want the game to change. Right now it's about chases and outplays in them.
You want to remove integral part of it, but just for 1 side and you are offended if I make SAME proposition for the other side. It's you that are supporting unreasonable request. I want the game to stay as is right now
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YESSSSSSS PLEASE THIS IS ALWAYS I'VE WANTED SINCE THE FIRST TIME I PLAYED SURVIVOR!!!!!
It makes absolute no sense that I, a survivor, could see where the killer is looking... It's absurd
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Interesting question. It'd be nice to test, but only if the killer chase music is deleted. That way we could be guided by our senses for the chase. The problem would be that, if not in a chase, survivors would be way too difficult to spot from afar, and, while in a chase, keeping track of where the survivor went besides just listening would be pretty difficult, especially if the survivor is not injured.
I, as a main killer, would like to test it and see how it goes anyway. Maybe with both changes the game would stop being so boring and monotonous
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"-some people just want to play with others that know what they are doing. "
I completely understand as there is a MMR group that struggles severely in solo queue. The problem is when you get people with thousands of hours who play in a SWF to bully the killer. They don't even have to be swat teams doing clock call outs. They just have to be 20% more efficient on generators to make the game just incredibly stupid for killer. Merely calling out the killer's location a few times and the perks they are using along with coordinating saves/gens makes you 20-40% more efficient at the game. That isn't fair.
If SWF came with ANY kind of limitation that made solo queue better it would be a choice of "side grade" instead of pure upgrade. I have proposed before that SWF be limited by : no character, item, perk or offering repeats. That would be a very soft nerf to SWF that would prevent bullying and allow you to play with your friends.
High level play usually follows along the lines of downing one person and then 2-3 generators get done. Survivors don't attempt to rescue that survivor until that survivor is almost on stage two most of the time. This happens because they stayed on the generator an extra 15-20 seconds. The killer in turn needs to stay by the hook to force stage two on that survivor to punish "gens before friends". If possible they need to prevent the rescue until stage two and then allow it so they can tunnel that person out of the game.
Mathematically 3/5ths of an objective is more than 1/4th of an objective. Survivors push the game to this state and then wonder why the killer wants to tunnel. This also leads killers to say well : if people are going to play like that then I need to play Blight/Nurse every game.
The killer gets nothing for two hooks one one person and one hook on another person. That means the killer should always hook one person three times and ignore everyone else. The game rules need to change to make the killer have an alternative choice that is appealing as -25% generator reduction speed for hooking three different survivors one time.
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People that are higher skilled than the killer and a severe way really don't need much to bully him... If one of us was to go against some 10k hours tournament player he would wipe the floor with us no matter what... Therefore restricting restricting him does not really mean anything. I don't think it is viable to put limitations on SWF because if you give them a disadvatage for playing with friends that will hurt the player base. You generally don't want to make it less attractive for people to play with friends no matter what. And to be honest those guys who are just that much better than the killer have two options 1. Do the gens in 5 minutes and escape with not much of a problem 2. Try to fool around and make stupid plays and so on... If you make it harder for them to do the second one what will they most likely do? Either try harder to make it still work or go for the alternative. That's exactly why comp needs restrictions, if it did not have those games would end in like 3-4 minutes easily.
Also honestly I hate the idea of dividing the playerbase in solos and people who play with friends... The issue is not people playing with friends, the issue is the game still has not recognized it needs to give solos some information to close the gap between these two groups of players and than balance around that.
"Mathematically 3/5ths of an objective is more than 1/4th of an objective. Survivors push the game to this state and then wonder why the killer wants to tunnel. This also leads killers to say well : if people are going to play like that then I need to play Blight/Nurse every game."
The problem with that statement is some people use it even though their situation does not really apply if you camp/tunnel one guy out for like 3-4 minutes what else are the other guys supposed to do other than gens? It is their main objective and you did not put any pressure on those guys...
"The killer gets nothing for two hooks one one person and one hook on another person. That means the killer should always hook one person three times and ignore everyone else. The game rules need to change to make the killer have an alternative choice that is appealing as -25% generator reduction speed for hooking three different survivors one time."
If the killer wants to win that much sure dude... But I could not care less about winning or loosing, it is all about the chases... If somebody really wants to camp and tunnel that hard he can hook me as well for free since I'm not invested at all into surviving and when his life is so sad that he wants to win at all costs than so be it... I don't play to escape I play to have fun, and when the killer decides to just balatantly tunnel someone out and the best thing to do about that is just sit on gens than this is boring af and I'm not gonna bother... He can have his win, if it makes his sad life better and I can go next hoping for some chases... Doing the most effective thing in this game is just terribly boring.
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One thing that could be done here is a Nightmare Mode people have mused about here and there. Basically:
No red stain, no audible TR, no visible buffs/debuffs, no audible totems, generally no audio warning and different skillchecks (like they'd build up on screen gradually was an idea i have seen). perks like small game would work via the screen briefly twitching (as if your character tenses up), while aura reading would be completely disabled. There'd also be more means to fight back, all killers could climb dropped pallets, that sort of thing. Scratchmarks would be more vibrant (bloodhound's basekit here)
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I don't know how many people would be interested in that, because that sounds awfull dude xD I want to watch a stream or video or listen to music while playing and I hate going against stealth killers because then I would need to pay attention therefore I would not want to play that mode xD
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-"If one of us was to go against some 10k hours tournament player he would wipe the floor with us no matter what"
If the tournament player is a survivor then sure. If the tournament player is on killer and not playing Nurse/Blight or a killer with best in slot addons : Hell no.
-"I don't think it is viable to put limitations on SWF because if you give them a disadvatage for playing with friends that will hurt the player base."
DBD's killer base has been shrinking for 6 years because it is a constant one step forward and two steps back. The "miracle" 6.0 patch that was supposed to balance everything has put more power in the hands of survivors than killers. In my region killer is back to +100% bonus almost the entire day and never changes other than early mornings when survivor mains dabble in playing killer. Before the 6.0 patch we had people pinging the DBD servers to look who was in the queue. There were cases where there were about 5000 survivors in queue with 45 killers. That's the symptom of a problem that was also the death of VHS. Teens were waiting in line for 15 minutes to play a 5 minute game because nobody wanted to play monster.
Restricting SWF perks doesn't really hurt a 2 man SWF. There are so many perks to choose from that do very similar things. You can heal yourself with self care or inner healing. You can "sprint away" with : Balanced landing, Dead hard, Lithe, Sprint, Overcome and you could even try to make use of : Smash hit. The 2 man swf is the majority of the DBD player base. What this change would do is "nerf" 3 and 4 man SWF groups who quite honestly are having easy games anyway and probably deserve to get nerfed.
You also ignore the fact that the UI would be updated so you could see what perks your friends have in the lobby so you can strategize with their build without asking them what perks they are using (I mean hell they have this technology for DBD on the switch).
-if you camp/tunnel one guy out for like 3-4 minutes what else are the other guys supposed to do other than gens?
What game are you playing? Again : most of the time the first chase ends and 2-3 generators are almost completed in the next 20 to 30 seconds. If everyone left their generator to make sure the save happened then the killer could in theory go interrupt those generators from getting completed. But that does not happen. They stay and finish the gens so the killer stays on the hook. Then the survivor hits stage two and then the killers goes to the nearby generators waiting for the unhoook (after which he will complete the kill).
"I could not care less about winning or loosing, it is all about the chases"
Most of the maps in DBD are not fair to the majority of the killer cast. It has nothing to do with the killers' life that they want to have fun , play the game and have the potential to win too.
"Doing the most effective thing in this game is just terribly boring."
Tell that to the survivors who rush the generator objective and then get mad when the killer rushes their objective.
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You are ignorant if you believe he would not also wipe the floor as killer with one of the top 10 killers with rather mediocre addons... Spirit, Pyramid Head, Artist, Plague, they are all really good and also played in tournaments constantly.
I don't know where you live, but over here it is the opposite, almost the entire time survivors are missing and late in the evening at around 10 pm it switches to killer sometimes.
I really don't like those generalizing statements, just because they play in a group does not mean they have easy games, maybe they are not good at playing survivor and get matched with killers out of their league, since matchmaking is a mess, it goes both ways dude...
"You also ignore the fact that the UI would be updated so you could see what perks your friends have in the lobby so you can strategize with their build without asking them what perks they are using (I mean hell they have this technology for DBD on the switch)."
Was never mentioned before, but would be a good idea in general, however I still don't think you should limit options.
"What game are you playing? Again : most of the time the first chase ends and 2-3 generators are almost completed in the next 20 to 30 seconds. If everyone left their generator to make sure the save happened then the killer could in theory go interrupt those generators from getting completed. But that does not happen. They stay and finish the gens so the killer stays on the hook. Then the survivor hits stage two and then the killers goes to the nearby generators waiting for the unhoook (after which he will complete the kill)."
That's the issue when you don't run corrupt, people will start doing the gen they spawned right next to. You can also finish the gen and get the rescue without letting them hit second stage rather easily...
"Most of the maps in DBD are not fair to the majority of the killer cast. It has nothing to do with the killers' life that they want to have fun , play the game and have the potential to win too.",
There are many onesided maps yes, but how is it fun just standing next to a hook? You are not doing anything at that point, you have more interaction holding down the w key while watching a movie then when you camp someone... The chases are the fun thing, when you have to play in a boring way to come out on top you may have won the game, but did you have fun? Because if you have fun playing boring then you are not enjoying the game, but just winning and that's really sad, because you prioritize winning over having fun.
"Tell that to the survivors who rush the generator objective and then get mad when the killer rushes their objective."
Seriously what else are they supposed to do? Even if they did all 5 boons it may not be enough to not call it genrushing or whatever... I had games where I did 5 boons and the killer still complained about genrushing... Like what else am I supposed to do? Go afk and make coffee?
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They just have to be 20% more efficient on generators to make the game just incredibly stupid for killer. Merely calling out the killer's location a few times and the perks they are using along with coordinating saves/gens makes you 20-40% more efficient at the game. That isn't fair
The game needs to be balanced around efficiency. There is too much of disparity between soloq time efficiency and SWF. I think if they just give soloq free global base-kit bond, soloq will be able to call the killer's location through deduction(you will see your teammate drop a pallet, which tells you who the killer is chasing and where he is approximately, no wallhacks of course, just approximate position). It will also help with healing efficiency as it will be easier to locate teammate for them to heal you and going for hook-saves will be more time efficient. You will also be able to deduce the generator's progression by estimating how long your teammate is on the generator making it easier to do generator's. soloq should be 20-40% more efficient at the game so that it is easier to balance killers.
The killer gets nothing for two hooks one one person and one hook on another person. That means the killer should always hook one person three times and ignore everyone else. The game rules need to change to make the killer have an alternative choice that is appealing as -25% generator reduction speed for hooking three different survivors one time.
I mean perks like this exist. Scourge hook: Gift of pain and Dying light grant 16% generator repair speed reduction and 3% repair reduction putting a survivor on a hook. Its just that these perks suck. too much drawbacks+why would I want to run perks to "not tunnel". Its easier to just tunnel and not run the perks in the first place.
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"The game needs to be balanced around efficiency."
Unfortunately it most likely never will be because they want survivors having an edge to keep the good players interested.
-"I mean perks like this exist. Scourge hook: Gift of pain"
Here's the problem with this idea. Use a perk and hook anyone and get some benefit or hook one person with no perk required and get massive benefit. Which one is better?
Basekit the killer should have 1:1 repair with an alive surviovr if all 4 are alive. For every dead survivor the killer's regression should go down by half. Base kit the killer should get something better than (25% generator reduction) / (3 hooks) = ~8% slowdown base kit for a survivor's first hook if no one has been killed yet. Anything less than that means I should tunnel one person out.
-"Spirit, Pyramid Head, Artist, Plague, they are all really good and also played in tournaments constantly."
Let's say there is a tournament that allows 1 green/1yellow addon for the killer and the first round of knock out is on Artist map. Who will chose PH over Blight? Who will choose Plague over Nurse? Nobody. And while Artist is a good killer she is just mechanically inferior to Nurse and Blight (while he has hug tech).
If you could play any killer with any addons would people play those killers over Nurse and Blight? The answer is no 99.9% of the time for everyone on that list except potentially Spirit. The only problem is that she god hardcore nerfed with the directional phasing sounds.
-"That's the issue when you don't run corrupt, people will start doing the gen they spawned right next to"
This is a general game design issue. The killer should have gotten either Deadlock or Corrupt basekit in the 6.0 update. They didn't do that however because 1) they lock the good gen regression perks behind premium DLC killers. 2) survivors really hated playing against corrupt every game.
-"There are many onesided maps yes, but how is it fun just standing next to a hook?"
You're completely dodging the issue. Also survivors never consider your fun when they want to loop you for 3 gens and have everything done in four minutes with zero kills and approximately 2-3 chases.
If survivors stop doing generators and push as a team for an early rescue the person on the hook rarely goes to stage two. But survivors who play efficiently do not want to do that because it gives room for the killer to reset the progress on those generators. They want to finish the gens and then rescue right before stage two. Hook camping is a cycle created by efficient play that is reinforced by completely unbalanced map design.
Nightmare mode would be fun but you forgot one thing : first person camera for all players. Three and four man SWF groups would be pretty fair if they had to play with some elements of Nightmare mode.
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~8% slowdown base kit for a survivor's first hook if no one has been killed yet. Anything less than that means I should tunnel one person out.
I agree.
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Yeah sure those killers are worse than Blight and Nurse and Spirit... But they are not that much worse that average players like us would stand a chance against a comp player on Artist or something like, you're completely misjudging what those guys can do.
And for any killer with any addons... Do you have any idea how ridiculously strong MDR Spirit is dude? There are even people that think MDR Spirit is stronger than Nurse, that's how broken this addon is... And it is not weak players, it's guys with like 8k-10k hours that used to play tournaments that think that this could be possible.
You are seriously undestimating the impact of directional phasing on spirit... She still moves so fast that once the 2-3 god pallets on a map are down there is nothing else to hold her back, what does it matter if you know where she is when she moves at double your speed dude? If you haven't seen Hens' Spirit showcase already with comp players against each other it is really great to watch and shows that spirit is still one of the best killers in the game and perfectly viable in a comp setting and outside of it.
I don't really not about hate towards Corrupt? I mean I don't really mind it as survivor, I can either rush to a dangerous area where the killer is waiting or just do a totem or open a chest, I like corrupt and think it is a great perk, I just dislike it being disabled after getting one down since it limits its usage on good chase killers.
If you watch good coordinated survivors they will often go for the unhook rather early and not wait that long, because having someone dead on hook early on can be really devastating and they know this, however survivors without information perks or communication cannot know if somebody is already going for the unhook, which leads to those kinds of situations, so if solo had information if somebody is already on his way to unhook this would not happen as often anymore.
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"you're completely misjudging what those guys can do."
No I'm not. Show me a comp killer and put them on trapper with 1 green 1 yellow addon. That's a 3 or 4 man escape on almost any map. There is so much difference in the power levels of the killers that it is brutally unfair.
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yet you spoke about artist and spirit. Both are VERY. And I mean VERY viable in comp scene.
If spirit got no restriction (which is stupid), I am positive she indeed IS stronger then god nurse. All you need is amulet + MDR. No perks are really required, but you can take deadlock and some info perks for extra juice.
As for artist and basically this whole argument, watch this whole video:
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Across all maps Nurse and Blight are better.
It's a Moot point about one map.
With restrictions Nurse and Blight are 100% better.
So it's a moot point what gets used in tournaments.
Also that video wasn't a trapper win now was it? Spirit with 1 green and 1 yellow is good? Hell no.
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There is a difference between Trapper and Killers like Artist dude... That's a whole different level... No one here is saying that a comp player can win with a basic M1 killer against everyone...
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From video "So if you have survivors that bring way weaker builds, it's not like you are comparing it to the same thing. So my whole point with this is, you need to compare the strongest stuff killer can bring to the strongest stuff survivor can bring. Once we see people start bringing technician to the tournaments, then you can start saying legion can't work in this tournament, so the game is broken. So then yeah. Now we are comparing low tier ######### to low tier #########". That should be also your response towards trapper.
Note that in that tournament artist WAS played and did REALLY well.
Also about moot point - why would it be? Are there any restrictions of what you can bring into public games? Is there anything in game that will kick you out if you take starstruck nurse with double range and midwitch offering? Because I did not notice such a thing. In fact last time comp player playing in public decided to do just that...
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Spirit is the least map dependant of those 3... Nurse struggles on larger maps or on Lerys and RPD for example, there are some really bad maps for Blight because of collision issues, so when we bring maps into the discussion Spirit is probably the most reliable of those 3.
With restriction I would probably agree about nurse, but I would say with limitations Blight and Spirit are really close together, but that comes more from the addon strenght because Nurses iridescent addons are just not as good as MDR.
Dude Spirit with two yellow addons will whipe the floor with us xD Nobody said anything about the weakest killer in the game being comparable.
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Lerys and RPD are not used for tournaments.
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Still does not change the point that spirit does not care about the map at all, whereas Blight has some maps with bad collision that don't work well for him and Nurse also has some bad maps... Which map would be bad for Spirit?
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Any map where she can't use her good addons - which is green+yellow vs a strong team that listens for her phasing. Mouse 1 killer and go.
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Her power is not map depedant at all, I don't understand what you mean... She moves at almost 8 m/s with yellow speed addon which gives the survivor a 3 second headstart until she is at their original location and another 1.5 seconds if they started running immediatly... Also I don't understand what you mean by "Mouse 1 killer and go." Spirit cannot be looped like a normal M1 killer as she is way too fast to make it around the loop if she holds the pallet.
Also I would like to point out that you started by saying "Across all maps Nurse and Blight are better." which also includes maps not played in tournaments, but then restricted it afterwards, please be more precise in your language.
Also I would say overall tournaments use different rule sets by a long shot, there was this really weird japanese tournament that allowed everything but iridescent addons and maps where completely random. And I also found one that also has maps completely random but judges with higher bloodpoints and has 5 matches per team vs team... So everyone has to play killer... But I will admit that was the weirdest stuff I have ever seen when it comes to tournament rules.
Spirit is completely fine with two yellow addons, and even with no addons she can perform well, but it limits her map traversal.
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"Spirit is completely fine with two yellow addons, and even with no addons she can perform well, but it limits her map traversal."
Winner winner chicken dinner. Nurse can destroy skilled players with no addons. Spirit won't be doing that. Spirit with her best addons is not even close to the same thing as Spirit with very limited addons.
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With no addons Nurse really struggles catching up bigger distances, I truly believe that in comp players would rather use Spirit with yellow addons than Nurse with no addons.
Having no addons hurts Nurse more when it comes to map traversal than it hurts spirit.
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I think most people who can play her nearly perfectly would disagree. There is a video from Hens where he plays a 4 man team and they accuse him of cheating. You should watch it.
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Good killer mains (like hens) could play ANY killer - so long as it's their main AND be accused of cheating. Literally any killer (or survivor for that matter).
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You should be more concrete when mentioning somebody with probably several hundreds of videos on their youtube channel... But he also did a Spirit showcase where yellow addons were enough to win against the best comp team before all gens were done. Also he himself once said, that he thinks MDR Spirit might be stronger than nurse, but it's arguable, so that does not really support your point.
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Also 4 man team says nothing about their skill level... They could have less than 1k hours or be a comp team, so it does not really mean anything specific.
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