Hooks VS. Kills Stats
Old argument in the past, but I think it is relevant to the problem with Camping and tunnelling and the way killers can easily focus on kills chasing down the weak link and snowball one or two Survivors. Most average killers that are not the strongest like Nurse, wouldn't bother engaging multiple chases or changes different targets as it would be a waste of time and effort to win the game this way; in fact it is much more rewarding to immediately get rid of one Survivor as fast as possible.
It would be nice, if the devs do not used the 60% kill rate ratio, and instead gives us a hook counter. Tell us how many hooks the killer gets in a average game, because it would gives us a much more accurate result of how the killer is performing per a Match. That way, it is much better to make proper changes to each killer that struggle to win.
If they do that, I am sure Survivors will less likely to complain about camping and tunnelling, if struggling killer gets the Necessary buffs that would allow them to go to multiple chase, end chase quickly, and slowdown the game basekit by engaging in multiple chase and not tunnel the one Survivor.
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If they did that then they might as well add Gens to it
Cause Gens are just as important as Hooks and Kills
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Sorry but no. Camping will always be 0 fun. It's instead of going for defending objective, let survivors come to me a do the work for me without any engage or chase. Sorry but that will never be interesting no matter what killer.
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I've read this thread three times now and I can't work out how your post relates to the TC's.
Going for "hooks over kills" is completely counter to camping. It's exactly what survivors want, multiple chases, multiple hooks, instead of camping out a sacrifice to force through three hook states off one hook action.
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Giving stats about hooks instead of kills means nothing and does not help anything. So long as camping and tunneling is optimal strategy, people will do that. Changing reported stats to hide that killers win games 60% of time because of it helps nobody.
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Sure, it would definitely be just as important as if a certain killer can not defend the gens before they secure all of their Hooks which leads to kills; it should matter.
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Then why does it have to be this way!?!
Why can't we enjoy the most important thing which is the chase and get rid of the worse elements of camp and tunnelling for killer, to win!
What makes me trouble and sad about the state of the game, is that in order for me to maximize my chances to win; I have to play extremely unfun and quite frankly boring, as going for multiple chase and multiple hooks, like how thw old emblem system used to work; it just simple is not rewarding and I will simply never get better as Killer nor get value in chase.
Maps getting worse and worse in each update, I am forced to stack gen regression/slowdown perks all the time and not often relie on fun and gimmicks builds on my own for chance to win, and often find playing terrible killers hard to win, especially for Adept Achievement. All because the game is forcing me, the pro killer players are now telling me, that I need to camp and tunnel to win!!
The Devs need revamp on their whole "Kill/Escapes" statistics; because no matter what they do; they are just making camping and tunnelling a completely productive way to win, even if they are bandfix it with perks. That is why I think hooks should matter and why they're needs to be some new game mechanics that rewards killer with seeking new Survivors and new hooks, instead of tunneling the one guy. Defending objective is never a option, if you do have a gen perk in your build.
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Actually, I like to beg the different! If I was a developer of DBD and I can see the significance difference between the amount of hooks a killer gets in a average game, vs. The amount of kills they get in a average killer. I can deduce which killer is far to strong in the killing department vs. Which killer is weak in chase, patrol, etx.
Nurse maybe hard to see in low pick games, but I am sure they are the killer with most amount of hooks which leads to somewhat decent score kills if good. Meanwhile, a Bubba with 4k and just 4 hooks, that just tells me; that he was a basement Bubba and took out alot of Survivors group up at once, with the help of HEX Noed.
If we can factor in the amount of gens left, what perks the killer is run, etc. In the statistics. We can have really reliable date on all killers, how well they perform, whom is problematic and unfun, and what the devs need to do next to make them healthier and more fun. Plus, it might give them ideas on what to do to make Camping and Tunneling less discouraged and give some necessary buffs to the rest of the killer rooster, so that they need to camp all the time and tunnel the poor Survivor.
My goal is to make games don't feel stack agaisnt the killer, when it just one player agaisnt 4th Survivors. 4 perks agaisnt 16 of them, which can stack together.
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Why would killer players ever stop camp and tunnel so long as the game stays the same as is now? It will always help win the games.
And it's not needed already. I just finished 4k with wesker. 3K (1 regular out) just before that on legion. No camp or tunnel. It already is NOT required. It's just easier (and always will be, because devs refuse to nerf these "strategies"). No amount of killer buffs will ever remove camp&tunnel so long as it's best thing they can do. The only thing killer buffs will do is boost kill rate (which is already ~60%)
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It would not surprise me to find out nurse has highest number of 4-hook kills. It does not need to be camping. It can very conveniently be slugging everyone and slaughter them all. For bubba - this is much more rare. But 4hook kill could also be that 3-4 survivors went for a single gen and got surprised. So again - your stats are meaningless without context
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Again, you are using 60% kill rate!
You were using Wesker and Legion, which are strong killer for that have mobility and lethality. Also, how many it hooks does it took you to get those 3/4 kills.
And I not suggesting nerf to Camps/Tunnel basekit, although it would be nice; but I also want basekit buffs for killers in general to compensate; such as being able to secure hooks and gain some time and pressure on any gens/exit gates they are defending. It can be as simple as adding pop goes the weasel as basekit, or no way out basekit per hook. Anything to make hooking multiple Survivors rewarding, then Killing and tunnelling one Survivor.
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They are not meaningless, they gives us information on which killer is performing the best, what perks or addons they are using, which map they are playing on, and what led to them to how they got the secure the kills in the first place.
My problem with the Dev's statistics is that it leaves alot of factors left unchecked and leads the devs to make the most unnecessary or negative impact changes to the health of the game. They are making huge mistakes in making important gameplay designs decisions on stats that don't necessarily explain what's is wrong with a killer.
Onyro is s Tier, simple because she has addons and slowdown power that is fantastic at getting Survivors condemn and easily mori; yet experience Survivors can simple avoid using tapes, hear her coming and simple hold w to run away, making her actual a weak Killer.
Trapper is never going to be strong, as his traps are clearly visible especially with the lack of grass or any place to hide; and injured Survivors can constantly step on traps and get no punishment for stepping on them.
That fact that some killers power are lackluster when it comes to unable to pressure every Survivors in the map, beside that one Survivor you are chasing; makes the kill stats just as meaningless.
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1, legion is BY FAR not one of strongest (but I agree wesker is). He is somewhere in the middle
2, yes kill rate is what matters.
3, wesker was 11 hooks (last person had 1 hook before he died). As for legion, I don't remember, so I can only guess. That guess would be 9 hooks. Might have been more or might have been less. Still 0 camp or tunnel.
4, so what does it mean if killer gets 4k on 4 hooks? Does it mean he slugged everyone? Or does it mean he camped everyone to death? I could make a guess depending on killer, but I could always be wrong. And if you can't get it right. What kind of information would those statistics bring? And how would you know - what should be done about it? Does condemn onrio camp or slug? Should she be buffed or nerfed (only by this metrics).
5, how does basekit pop in any way lesser tunneling? I can't think of ANY reason why it should. Not a single one. Tunneling + pop basekit is as strong as tunneling where pop does not exist.
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I PERSONALLY will always vouch for hooks over kills. I DON'T want to tunnel or camp. Hell I don't think any killer does, I'm a Billy main (rip my boy! lol) and I go out of my way to get my hooks because I know the feeling as a survivor to have these things occur.
I however, don't think either side should be rewarded or punished for this behaviour as it is indeed a strategy that be it good or bad is in the game and the best way around it is to find out a way to reward the multiple changes.
In my mind I always think of Player A (we shall name him...Bob the killer.) booting up the game and seeing B,C,D & E survivors. What can I do to encourage Bob to enjoy without any perks or points, but to actually enjoy going for them 4 different hooks? Well, that's something I'm thinking about in my own thread too lol, and when I find an answer to it I will post something.
Maybe a temporary blood lust tier 1 each time you hook a different survivor for instance? Essentially a build in fire up. OR rework Fire up to stack per each new fresh hook? Again, thats a PERK not a game foundation. I REALLY dont want perks to be a band-aid to fix this issue.
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That will still not really offset the benefit of tunneling. Best job that was part of the game was old 5s DS. Because this would actually make it very risky for killer to tunnel. He would loose almost a minute in chase and get nothing in return. So if he went for someone else, he would use his time more efficiently. (Sure DS had problem of aggresive usage, but from point of only tunneling, best perk for health of game so far).
Every other thing in game right now does not work to make tunneling not the most optimal strategy every single time without a hint of thought no matter the conditions.
The only thing that came close was idea someone gave about shared pool of hook states. Tunneling would remain best strategy, but it will at least not make it braindead first choise. It would actually only make tunneling beneficial by finding weak link and draining all hook states where it's the easiest to do.
All the other ideas that just want to buff killers deliveratelly turn blind eye to the fact, that no amount of killer buffs would stop making tunneling best strategy. The only real difference is, that 100hrs killer will be able to tunnel out 10k hrs survivor and win the game that way.
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It all started as people finding out that MMR can be raised by getting kills and escaping
So they need to add just a bit more like Gens and Hooks
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Exactly, the devs crossing off Gens and Hooks from the Equation and focus purely on the end results. It doesn't matter on the amount effort or less effort you made in the trial, hencing killers are pressure to kill as fast as possible by camps and tunnels. Or for Survivors, don't die and genrush when not in chase. Getting in chase is usually not incentives as much as your risk of dying in the trial, will no longer matter in your score.
There needs to be more factors to consider what truly defines a skillful play. Hencing why if we can get those results, we can truly see the reality thay killers are underperformed in high ranks, unless they camp and tunnel to secure kills.
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Killer is now easier. Across all skill brackets.
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I can agreed with you there, Old DS had somewhat healthy benefits to punishing hardcore tunnelling; but it had alot of problems when it comes to Aggressive using it to get the Killer's attention on you as well as bodyblocking or locker jump shenanigans. Which is why I am okay with all the nerfs it was giving, except for the 3 second stun.
The alternative to hook pools would be a nice buff change, so that hook Survivor are not easily eliminated but it can be easily abuse as one guy can literally spend less then 720 seconds, to used all all the hooks state on their first hook; just by letting the others work on gens and do a stare down agaisnt the face camp killer.
You are wrong about the last statement, I am sure there is a way or two to buff Killers significant without making tunnel oppressive but in fact less discouraged then ever. My Proposal is asking the devs to please gives us Hook/ gens statistics so that we can better understand whom is strongest killers to weakest; by the amount of hooks they get per game. If we comes to conclusions that killers that Excell at killing but lack in 3 hooks states per Survivors or 12 hooks; they are not strong as they probably used Camp/tunneling tactics to win for kills. Same can be said about gens, did a certain killer was able to defend any gens or were they all completely along with the exit gates being open.
Stats likes should matter in game balancing as well as solving the game's life span problem of gen rushing/map imbalance for killer, and camping/tunneling for Survivors.
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I understand your ideas and generally I would agree. But I have to raise that 1 point I stated before. What if the actual least-states-to-win falls down on nurse? Even if nurse "never" camps to get them? Low amount of hooking to kill does not necessarily mean camping. And there are more killers like this. I already mentioned (condemn) onryo, but blight and spirit are the same as nurse in this regards. Also twins love to slug and getting 4K this way is not that strange.
How would you distinguish this from facecamping bubba?
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I am certain if the devs actually bother to create system in place for the game to detect mechanics being off for cheating; I am certain that they should develop or incorporate systems in place to detect a killer's proximity to a hooked Survivor.
Yes, Slugging is quite a tricky situation; as without Unbreakable based perks; it can be a solid strategy for killer to leave a Survivor on the ground in case they know there is another survivor in close proximity for a possible save (Flashlight, Flashbang, hook sabotage, etc.) I most certainly wouldn't want to give points for Slugging, as I do think survivor should be able to fight back and be able to pick themselves up if possible.
Yet, I do think killer's need some reward for hooks, as the problem with the state of the game; it is much faster and efficiently to take out one survivor as fast as possible, especially if they can find the weak link of the team. This (toxic) stable strategy involves camping, tunneling, and Slugging to maximize pressure for the entire survivor Team as they will be weak by their lack of number by down one survivor at a time. There needs to be many benefit for the killer to slowdown game by hooks, so they can have additional time to go for multiple hooks and be less incentive to camp and tunnel one guy.
As you said before, this problem so complex that, it like trying to build a rocket to the Mars and land it successful, with government funding.
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But they also need to be careful... adding to much will cause the system to not be accurate
But at least what they have is a decent base
Also the reason why Camping and Tunneling increased was 2 fold:
1) No incentives for the Killer to do something else... Hit and Run has taking a hit due to Survivors A) running Medkits and B) knowing what to do in that situation
2) The fact that Survivors are better at Looping then before... Good for them... also Survivors are getting better at hitting skillchecks
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What if that basekit would go off ones you kill first survivor. Killers need some help for 4vs1 but for 3vs1 nope.
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Once you kill one survivor and there are 3 or more gens still not done, the game is over. Survivors would need to get massive buff to stand a chance. Which sounds stupid (basically it is being rewarded for doing bad - it would create a lot of bad situations that would be unfair one way or another).
Overall I don't think killers need some special buffs. From stats kill rate is already 60%. From personal experience, it's more common for me to get 2 hooks at 5 gens then first hook at 2-3 gens. So overall if anything, only adjustments are needed - so make tunneling and camping harder/more risky and give some chase power to compensate.
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It absolutely means something.
What's the problem with a terrible killer who gets no hooks all game but runs NOED and 1-hook-kills everyone at EGC, and a good killer who doesn't camp or tunnel, gets 2 hooks on each survivor, but then they all escape?
The wrong killer is getting credited with a kill (and contributing to kill rates).
How about when a killer really struggles and by all means should lose, because they've scored maybe 2-3 hooks all game, the survivors have powered the exits, and are teabagging. But then the killer gets one last down, the survivors make the reckless decision to swarm the hook for a cocky SWF rescue attempt, and they all go down and die.
That's not a game that should have been won, and by crediting the killer with those kills, you're making it seem like they're better than they are.
Or a bubba who camps out 3 hook stages for each survivor, so that they all die on their first hook? Terrible killer, gets rewarded for it and boost kill rates.
As long as you want the game to not be about camping and tunnelling, then you need to credit the killers who don't camp and tunnel, you need to stop praising kills over hooks. As long as bubba's get the same result for camping out 3 hook stages as they do for maximising hook scores and rotating survivors, they'll keep doing it and the problem won't go away.
If hooks were the goal instead of kills, you would not see camping at all. And the only way to start the process of getting to that state, is to have data to back it up. That data is hook rate vs kill rate.
As someone who plays killer like this, I'd love to know my hook rate over my kill rate, and whether or not my main killers have high average hook rates would be more useful to me than average kill rates. I absolutely hate it when a hooked survivor goes to second stage. Why did you guys not rescue your team mate? You've just cheated me out of another hook.
And for the record, I treat survivor the same way too, and more people should. I would much rather take a game where I manage to repair 2-3 gens, make 2-3 hook rescues, and half a dozen heals, with a few stuns thrown in for good measure, but I ended up dying on my third hook, than I would a game where I escaped but only managed to repair gens and nothing else. Escaping isn't everything, and I often get a bigger score and more pips on games I die in, than some of my escapes that were clearly too easy and too unrewarding.
This is another aspect of why 'kill rates' are not a great measure of the state of the game. A very closely matched game will be a game that could swing either way at the last minute, and a good game that ends with a 4K is a much more preferable game for me as a survivor, than a game where the killer cant hook anyone and we all escape without a fuss.
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Devs can give killers the ability to fly and they still will camp and tunnel just they want to.
Camping and tunneling is the player decision, that's why we need some kind of mechanics to avoid this.
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Exactly my problem with Kill/Escapes base system; you are being punished by playing dirty and unfun by tunnelling one or two Survivors if you are lucky and camp them to death to secure a kill; it is much better if you play a strong face camping killer like a Bubba or Huntress for example. And then be pair in high rank matches with the most experienced skilled Survivors whom are using meta perks, using map offerings to go the a very strong map that will benefit their build and their entire team; knows how to loop effectively as many killers do not have enough or strong anti chase power without the proper experience or perk build for the match; and be punished with one or two hooks or get unlucky and they trade hooks to keep everyone alive with 8 hooks in the bag; yet they all escape and you lose!?!
This is not a reliable system, as to the devs; it doesn't matter on how you made achieve securing the kill, once the e d results appear and it counts the Survivors Escapes as alive, they win!
When I ask for hook counts to count for the match making system, instead of kill counts. I want to know whom is fact the best/worse killer by that margin; so that it can gives reliable data on which killer is better, or terrible at chase, map pressure, lethality, camp/tunnelling effectively. Only then, we can provide the devs with better base game quality improvements to buff killers to not only de incentives killers from needing to camp/Tunnel most to even all the time. But, maybe add rewards to chase/map pressure for all Survivors for each hook they secure. That way, killers whom played and switched targets with different Survivors they find with get maximize their chance of success; while giving Survivors open opportunities to save without need to call out the killer for sticking around.
I am sticking for both sides here, mostly killer as killer is the hardest side to play; you are pressure by time all the time; and Survivors have 4 players agaisnt you. Survivors maybe be weak to game sense, yet they can be quite overwhelm powerful when they come together with strongest perks combos, with communication (swf), and exploit bad map designs to give them a significant gameplay advantage over the one killer, which more then half the rooster is not "Nurse" level of strength. I personally do not think the 60% Kill rate is the most accurate fact about the state of killers, as not all those kills are legit fair kills that the killer probably earned. I say, a kill is made when I am able to take away all of their hook states first, I spend some time in chase to get that victory kill; yet by the time one Survivor is down before their first hook, a gen or two could be done?!
If the Devs truly care about kills/escape; scrapp the hook states in general and just let the killer straight up mori the survivor on the spot; it quite clear that Survivor's objective has a much shorter time then killer's objective to hook normal, it might not be in a 1v1; but this game is a 4v1, so the killer is pretty much pressure by time and effort to kill in the most efficient way possible to kill instead of hook.
This is my small rant, in the problem with dbd, and the imbalance of kills/escape ratio. It doesn't tell the truth about each killer's strength accurate.
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(the response also applies to you, so I am marking you too even if not all points are direct response. But yes I agree that 1-sided games are not fun no matter if you are winning side or loosing side or if you win that game in the end or loose it)
1, soloQ is the hardest role by HUGE margin. You can argue killer is more difficult then playing in SWF and you might be right in higher skill cap, but overall there should be no dispute soloQ is by far toughest role. Ask any streamer with over 3K hours that plays at least marginally both sides and I am pretty sure they will agree with me. I would personally argue survivor is always tougher role, but sure that's debatable. SoloQ is not. At current state I will not touch soloQ with a long pole until devs actually fix the game.
2, I presume stats will end up suggesting nurse is weakest killer of them all, because she will so often 4hook kill whole team (after 2 minutes in game and absolutely precisely 0 camping or tunneling). And I said it in different thread already - there are many more killers like nurse in this specific regards. Condemn onryo or meyers are another good examples (they will win the game at 0 hooks). Hook counting is maybe even more flawed statistics then kill count and that should hint a lot.
3, reason why many killers THINK survivor is OP IS camping and tunneling. By playing basement bubba as a pretty much beginner player (say 50hrs), you will skip all the survivors that are just as bad in chases as you are. Meaning suddenly you will soon face 2K+ hrs survivors that will just never give you the chance to camp/tunnel. What is the take you get from the game? Survivor is so OP and maps are so safe that it's impossible to catch survivor and camping+tunneling is hard requirement for killer to at least stand a chance. It doesn't matter that you have 0 idea how to chase or notice crows or how to mindgame, moonwalk, listen to sounds or master killer abilities. All of this does not matter. Because you are able to cheese your way to way better survivors then you are killer and so survivors are too much and too easy (even if they are not). I actually don't camp or tunnel and let me say that winning as killer is pretty easy compared to survivor. Sure I will loose some (especially on bad maps against people with more experience), but I win or get the game handed to me more often.
4, if killer wants to win, he just picks nurse with starstruck and double range or something equivalent (spirit with MDR, blight with many different strongest addons he can pick, meyers with tombstone piece, etc). If survivor wants to win, he needs to find 3 other as frustrated players as he is, they all need to equip BNP and hyperfocus or equivalent things and hope they will not get camped/tunneled to death (because securing 1K is ALWAYS possible). What I am trying to say - both sides can take strongest stuff. The difference is, that killer can win by default and it's OK in your eyes and survivor can almost do the same (but not really) and it's game breaking problem. You are comparing any killer to best things survivors can bring. Not exactly fair to say the least.
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Solo Que is the hardest role, in Survivors; as they do not get the luxury of information; and it not like the devs do not even bother to ever eventually buff them to be on par with swf so they can perform better with the power to communicate and play effectively/work as a team. Solo Que are literally always at a disadvantage in which they can never understand what the others are trying to do and whom they are facing as a Killer, or what you should be doing. I say, they need a Buff regardless of your opinion; as buffing soloQ to be just the same as swf will absolutely make any survivor absolutely realise how really strong they are, the tools they now have, and how their greatest advantage, the numbers advantage; will allow them to win effectively and efficiency.
Also, what do you mean by "fix the game" the game is already so broken by many factors; and that is quite a vague statement there when you say Solo Que shouldn't be Buff; that is backward logic when it comes to game balancing. Everyone knows SWF are the most busted thing, as it makes survivors insanely strong. I would agree with some that they are "exploiting" since they are using third parties voice coms to communicate to friends, which gives them a gameplay advantage over the killer. (Even if the devs keep on saying that it not exploit or violation of their terms, as it is a SWF; I would have wish they just simply give us base game microphone for all both Solo Que and SWF regardless, if that was the case)
You are mistaking about nurse strength, her low pick rate how nothing to do with her kill stats. I am certain it is the very high skill ceiling of playing Nurse, and how very difficult it is to play her, especially on console. Trust me, I play alot of killers ans I cannot master nurse despite playing well as any killer. Nurse is not my specialty killer, compare to Ranged killers or trap based killers like Trapper and Huntress that I would love to play. Back on topic, because not many players can master the nurse, her kill rate is low; yet far from the truth that she can be quite strong and oppressive in high ranks and can mostly go for many hooks, if we ever see the hook average stats on her!
Also, I don't Aggreed with on survivor being op because of camping and tunneling; I am saying that survivor is in fact OP with meta perk stacking (16 perks vs. 4 killer perks), bad maps designs and strong loops, swf offering voice communications with their teammates to always make callouts for whom, where, what the killer is and doing. If you can factors all of these, alot of killers just simply struggle to play well agaisnt them; and it is my belief and far understanding and experience, like many other players; that killers are peer pressure to play scummy and "toxic" (I prefer play unfair) and resorts to the best strategy that is known as camp, tunnel, slug syndrome. It been getting worse and worse as more imbalance maps, more experienced survivors getting better at loops, and how little significant a killer powers are getting when it comes to making any progress hooks and chase, as well as applying map pressure on all Survivors; that is effected every player in general.
And what's wrong with me comparing any killer with any Survivor, whom would mostly certainly bring the most busted thing. All if not most of my games are filled with survivors bringing the most same old meta perks, exhaustion Perks, windows of opportunities, etx. Especially with one of them throws in a map offering. It seems more often then not, I will encounter a swf when will abuse bad map design and ensure that I will not get a hook at all, and if they did; I would be swarm and bodyblock away from getting a chance to secure any pressure. I could play smart by avoid chasing one guy, but.... the one Survivor whom I chase is probably going to tell their teammates I am coming and run or hide away. What has mean as any average killer is I am supposed to do about it, especially if I am not running any strong builds or do not have a map that favors me at all. Thr game is still is survivor sided, and feels like killer is underwhelming weaker then this delusional "60% kill rate" to me it feels like 20-30 kill rate is more accurate, from my perspective. I van never be certain, as again; the devs do not offering any form of system to monitor your performance. No personal statistics, no replay feature, it all guessing game or personal speculation on your performance and making self evaluation on how you are truly performing per match. You can tell me to get good, but let me you; what is the point in getting good, when the enemy team as some advantages beyond your control, advantages that Plague this game and make proper balance challenges nearly impossible?
My overall stance when it comes to balancing, is hooks stats; then buffing Solo Que to be the same as SWF (as SoloQ is weakest and needs to be just as strong as any swf survivor) and then once survivor is buff significant and fair. Only then, I say buff killers significant and downgrade strongest just a bit. Nerfing swf will not be a solution, as the devs seem sure that would be not a good idea to hurt the majority of the playerbase that play with friends. Fine then; but i still think swf is strong, soloQ needs that swf treatment in which theyvcan communicate somehow; and then killers in general need a overhaul buff to compensate for its 1v4 disadvantages. Anything to make the killer a actually threatening monster that oppressive not just one Survivor but also can overshadowed the rest of the Survivors too. Only then, I am certain that killers will have a much more fair and fun match as well, and we can finally put a end to slugging, camping, and tunnelling for wins.
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