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As long SWF exist, there will be no balance
SWF destroys the balance of the game. You can easily see that in tournaments that survivors, no matter how good the killer is (even with nurse and meta perks), that SWF always win.
Ban SWF. It was never intented for the game to be a 4 man group and coordinated party to dominate for so long.
Comments
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Guys who wants to SWF with me later today?
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yeah sure man
what platform?
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When you ban SWF, we won't have a game to play.
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Yea I agree....but sadly nothing can be really done about SWFs especially when BHVR won't admit the advantage SWFs have or show stats on how well SWFs actually do
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There will be people playing Dead by Daylight only now there is no SWF.
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Honestly, I might be down. Are you on Playstation?
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Yeah, 2 at maximum
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Isn't it possible to separate from soloq to swf stats? i thought it would be easy to do that
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So your implying an experienced nurse with meta perks, would lose to a 4 man SWF of 100 hour casual players?
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"destroys the balance of the game"
Just because you have comms does not make the game unbalanced. That might have been true years ago, the game is a lot different today.
Adapt.
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If you are expecting an asymmetrical game to ever truly be balanced, you may as well stop playing DBD now as asymmetrical games cannot ever truly be balanced by their inherent nature.
Is SWF strong? Well sure, IF the players are all actually skilled but the majority of the DBD community are casuals with moderate to low skill levels and any competent killer will still destroy the vast majority of SWF's.
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How do I adapt when an swf can completely delete one or more of my perks just bc they are on comms? The other day as a Freddy I was running Euduring, Sprit Fury, Hubris, and Deadlock. Deadlock did hardly anything, shoot I had two gens left and they were able to do those two gens at the same time. Completely countering Deadlock just bc they were able to talk to each other and time it that way. As for the other 3 perks I got one down with them and after that everyone just started pre-dropping pallets and playing things safe. On top of all this, they had CoH and a few green medkits. How do I adapt to this type of party when Im playing a low tier killer and not even running a meta build? Just telling someone to adapt doesn't do anything bc in a lot of cases you can't adapt unless you just want every killer to play a meta nurse or blight just in case they end up in an swf lobby. Then if that happens you just make soloQ lobbies even more painful.
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Have you actually seen any tournaments or competitive play? Killers win all the time. There was a tournament when everything was allowed and killers had a 50% win rate.
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This. I usually 3 man SWF and we get rekt all the time. Two of us are super casual who play just to play and I'm not the greatest at chases. Unless the killer is super bad, we end up losing 8/10 matches. Two of us don't bother to realize what perks the killer is using and will eat Eruption all day, one tunnels and never looks behind them during chase, gen awareness is non-existent in our group. I've played with multiple people who are super casual but fun to play with. Why eliminate something that a very low player base make use of?
OP has made multiple threads trying to push negative outcomes on survivors and defending everything killer. It's questionable on if these posts are even real discussions or not.
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You aren't going to go against very organized SWF often at all. Even so, other commentors have already said that the win ratio for killers is 50% in tournaments. Encountering those same players in SWF regular queue is going to be super rare.
I wonder how you deal with two flashlights and two toolboxes. Do you run Lightborn and Franklin's demise? If so, against SWF those are already deleted by them because they have no use for items.
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They did it back in 2019
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/61114/community-community-data-requests#latest
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This is true, but you're making the wrong claim. You should instead say things like "solo queue will never be as good as swf". Facts that cannot be disputed.
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Would you like there to be no DBD at all ? Because that's how you achieve it.
People play online games to play with their friends. Take that away and I promise you will see the traffic plummet in this game.
The only person who would complain about being able to play with friends is someone who doesnt play with friends. Maybe do that and enjoy the other 50% of the game rather than try to destroy it.
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so they can do it but why did they stop doing this?
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Not anyone has friends willing to play DBD nor do they enjoy getting dominated as Survivor.
You'd have to significantly nerf a lot of the Killer cast/perks.
Post edited by Pulsar on4 -
That "fact" can easily be disputed.
A team of 4 high skilled survivors with no comms will have much better overall results than a 4 man SWF of average skilled players, against the same killers.
The only way your statement could be 100% truth and fact would be if you had a team of 4 solo queue players with the same skill level as a 4 man swf team, and had them playing matches against the same skill level killers.
Under these conditions you would see probably better results by the SWF, depending on how efficiently they are using their comms would determine how much better they do.
The fact that to make your statement 100% fact, requires many stipulations with regards to matchmaking, shows that you cant just say "solo queue will never be as good as swf".
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I thought you were a SoloQ survivor, considering how much you complain about it
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Did I say anything about any of that in my post? Yes, I know you don't go against an swf all the time but the comment that I was commenting on said you have to adapt. You cant as a killer adapt on the fly against an swf, shoot sometimes you dont even know it's a swf till its to late. The only real way to adapt as killer for a swf is to think every match is going to be against a swf and run the best killer with the best addons and meta perks. That is the only way to "adapt" to swf. So you can't just tell a killer to adapt to an swf that was the main point in my post and clearly it went right over your head.
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Went over my head because I ignored something simply as you stated? Agressive much? Adapt by playing to the meta or something that gives you a better chance at winning? If your whole point is to win win win then why don't you use tactics that's already favored to killers such as meta, tunnel, slug?
Inb4 "But survivors will complain about slugging/tunneling/camping", this isn't a survivor complaining about meta thread.
No one can force you how to play. If your goal is to have fun then do what makes it fun for you, if your goal is to win then do what makes it best for you to win? If you don't want to take a chance at the very rare occurrence of being dominated by a full SWF then play to the best method of winning.
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I actually usually play Duos or Solo.
People playing with their friends keeps this game alive.
I will continue to bring up issues that plague Solo Q until they are fixed.
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And in tournament play they have rules on perks and items.
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Guess they'll just have to do their best then, because that will obviously never happen.
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As others have said, removing SWF would indeed kill off this game.
Someone was kind enough to post the last stats breaking down SWF numbers from back in 2019. At that time about half of all players were win at least a two-man group, with trios and quads far far less common.
Since then, with solo queue just so delightful for so long a time, it's reasonable to assume the numbers of solos must have dropped as they form SWF just to survive, pun intended. I suggest asking the devs for updated numbers to be sure, though.
If you are a killer wayyyyy up at that mythical high MMR area, you bet you will get the sweat SWF who are at that level as well. That means the matchmaking is working as intended, putting the sweats with the sweats etc. However both groups make up such a miniscule portion of the overall playerbase that their stats have to be discarded, same a newbies with 10 hours total.
Look, I also dislike getting destroyed by a lethal coordinated SWF, and I do remember those trials, but as I'm a lousy killer (and an ok surv) they are very few and far between.
They aren't going to ban SWF, nor impose crazy tourney limitations on perks, items, add-ons, etc. And they cannot do squat about comms. So they do what they have been doing, slowly bit by bit providing solos with the possibility of coordination and info, with the goal of it not really mattering if they play solo or groups.
Whether that's even possible or not is another thread entirely my friend.
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That doesn't have a lot to do with SWF though. A solo player can see Enduring and start predropping. I do. If you're asking how a low tier killer with a non-meta build can compete with a fairly meta squad: why should they be able to? The game wouldn't be balanced at all if players could just run whatever they wanted on whoever they wanted and compete with the strongest build on the other side
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we both know what i meant, you wrote all that just to argue off my general wording. matchmaking is a separate issue that shouldn't be considered in game balance.
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Dumbest complaint ever. The game is co-op and has been since the start, if you don't like it then play something else because they're not going to change the core design. Next nerf suggestion, BHVR should just remove player controlled survivors out the game and replace them with bots.
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On both sides. There are restrictions for killer perks and add ons too. It's not a perfect comparison, but comp-level teams aren't playing pubs with any regularity, so it's not really the measuring stick anyway. I've never run into anything in a pub that really approached the game speed of a decent comp team. The whole point of the comparison is to say that killers can compete if they're on the level of the survivor players.
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If you dont have balanced matchmaking there is no baseline balance to work off of, which is the point. The balance issue is matchmaking not SWF or Comms, which is why I wont touch solo queue with a 10 ft pole.
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They'll just use discord or phones it does matter, just add 2 killers I want to que with my best friend
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KWF
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Again my comment was toward the person who just said ppl need to adapt when playing against an swf. I'm not all about winning but if I'm against an swf with a nonmeta builds then I might as well just dc or not play bc I can tell you there no having "fun" if im not even going to have a fighting chance. I don't care if don't win all the time I really don't but if I can't even get hooks in and have fun chases where Im not compete outplayed then what's the point? Im not going to have fun either way. The fun matches are the close ones and that match that just used as an exp I wasn't having fun at all. I might have just not played at all and let them do 5 gens and leave.
I said it went over your head bc you miss my point which was saying "just adapt" isn't a good suggestion in a game that heavily favs the side that brings the best perks/items/addons and being in an swf.
I wasn't really talking about the other perks in my story, it was mostly the fact deadlock did nothing. As I said to @illumina my post was mostly toward the guy who just says "adapt" when in alot of cases a killer cant just adapt in a match. There no way for me to know if the group Im going against is a swf and using meta so the only way a killer can adapt is to think every match is going to be a sweat fest and be the best killer and perks to even compete in the match. It not even about winning but if I cant even finish chases or get hooks what's the point in even playing the match? I might as well dc and move to the next one in hopes I have a better time.
Again you both missing the point of my og comment. Shoot you both think I even agree is the OP which I don't. I dont think we should delete swfs from the game but I do think to even compete with an swf a killer has to bring the best stuff and be on A or higher tier killer. What I believe the game needs is to be soloq up closer to swf and buff the B and lower tier kilers up so they can compete against a group with comms. I also think the op killer perks and addons needs nerfing(ex: eruption, Alc ring, MD ring, and nurse's range addons) and the powerful survivor items (green medkits and toolboxs) need to be looked at. There are BS on both sides that the devs need to look at and fix to make this game fair and balanced for everyone no matter if their solo or a swf or a low tier killer.
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-"The other day as a Freddy I was running Euduring, Sprit Fury, Hubris, and Deadlock. Deadlock did hardly anything, shoot I had two gens left and they were able to do those two gens at the same time."
This is no fault of your own but rather a design flaw with Deadlock. They added rollback protection for pallets so the least the devs could do is add rollback protection for deadlock. It should be the case that if you were able to finish gens at exactly the same time (becuse you were a robot or something) that the perk would activate and lock out the second generator via rollback.
That is the bare minimum expectation for fairness.
"-You aren't going to go against very organized SWF often at all. "
This is false.
First let me say it is disingenuous to say a "very organized SWF". If by that you mean a comp level team like that of the streamer - Hens, then maybe.
It has always been the case that a veteran player can assemble a team with 3 bad to medium skilled players and steer them to victory. Let us consider for a moment that the killer's time is a 1:4 compression in that if he is afk 10 seconnds then the enemy team had 40 seconds collectively. If one person is hooked and 3 people leave their generator that can waste 2 players 20 of time seconds easily.
Avoiding this one time in a SWF by saying " I got the save" means your team just prevented 40 seconds of lost time. How many hooks are there in a normal game? Let's say there are 8 hooks.20 seconds *2 * 8= 320 seconds.
There is no way that a team of solo players will ever make up for the difference in lost time compared to a SWF considering just this one aspect. But we must realize that SWF is not just calling this one thing out. A decent SWF team calls out many things like what perks the killer is using, where the killer is going, if X pallet has been used/wall broken, and where a totem is located.. Sure they're not tournament ready but they save 4 minutes minimum per game by making call outs.
The solo players would only potentially have this info via aura reading perks. The SWF team gets the info without using perk slots. This is an advantage on the level of cheating (which is different than saying it is cheating).
I would say that 90% of my game have at least one organized team of two SWF players. I know this to be true by looking at their friends list.
"Even so, other commentors have already said that the win ratio for killers is 50% in tournaments."
Tournaments massively restrict survivors. Therefore why don't we restrict survivors in a team on coms with that rule set? Impose the rule : No character, perk , item , or offering may be repeated in a SWF group. Upon entering queue everything but your outfit becomes locked. Add a UI element so that when the team has not yet entered queue you can see the perks/itens+addons/offerings your allies want to bring.
There are plenty of heal perks : self care, CoH, inner healing, etc. There are plenty of gen rush perks : Prove Thyself, Fast Track, Hyperfocus, etc. There are plenty of exhaustion perks : DH, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing, etc.
You're still playing with your friends but now you are slightly limited to reflect the massive efficiency bonus you get from voice coms. This would be good for the game because solo would have an advantage (4 players can all potentially bring the best items/perks). SWF would also have an advantage : efficient play via voice coms.
"Encountering those same players in SWF regular queue is going to be super rare."
When you win often you can actually get to the point where you queue with the same survivors and sometimes play against the same killer. You don't even have to take my personal experiences into account. You can see this has happened with Truetalent's stream where he queued by chance with one of Agony's team members twice in a single stream (three games in a row). You can see him play against the same strong SWF sometimes twice in a single stream (I have seen this event more often on CMWinter's stream).
-"Ban SWF"
Literally no one is asking for this. What you mean is : make SWF give the opposing side an edge to balance out the fact that you have voice coms.
An easy example : IF you play in a SWF give the killer 4 perks that he chooses ahead of time for each of his three loadouds. If he plays vs 4 solo players those perks do nothing. If he plays vs SWF then he gets his 4 normal perks and the 4 extra perks.
Now the killer has 8 perks to balance out the communication advantage. That would be a second way to balance SWF.
But what about solo queue players who were in a game with a 2 man SWF?
Give solo queue players 4 information perks chosen ahead of time that only activate if they are in a game featuring SWF. So they could select perks like :Alert, Bond, Empathy, Kindred and Rookie Spirit. They could not choose "dead hard" as one of their information perks.
I would love to play against SWF teams if I got to bring 8 perks. Why? Because when I play in a SWF I can easily convey the information worth somewhere between 12-16 perks. That's just not fair for a killer to play against.
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Add chat and balance for swf
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Of all the things I have read upon this forum, asking to give the killers 8 perks to deal with SWFs is by far one of the wildest suggestions I have ever seen. Are we playing the same game? I legit can't tell anymore.
This is what it would take for you to get a balanced game? You estimate you would need EIGHT perks just to win 6/10 of your killer matches in a night?
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they should just buff solo by adding pings/ basekit kindred w/o the killer aura reading
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This is false.
First let me say it is disingenuous to say a "very organized SWF". If by that you mean a comp level team like that of the streamer - Hens, then maybe.
It has always been the case that a veteran player can assemble a team with 3 bad to medium skilled players and steer them to victory. Let us consider for a moment that the killer's time is a 1:4 compression in that if he is afk 10 seconnds then the enemy team had 40 seconds collectively. If one person is hooked and 3 people leave their generator that can waste 2 players 20 of time seconds easily.
Avoiding this one time in a SWF by saying " I got the save" means your team just prevented 40 seconds of lost time. How many hooks are there in a normal game? Let's say there are 8 hooks.20 seconds *2 * 8= 320 seconds.
There is no way that a team of solo players will ever make up for the difference in lost time compared to a SWF considering just this one aspect. But we must realize that SWF is not just calling this one thing out. A decent SWF team calls out many things like what perks the killer is using, where the killer is going, if X pallet has been used/wall broken, and where a totem is located.. Sure they're not tournament ready but they save 4 minutes minimum per game by making call outs.
The solo players would only potentially have this info via aura reading perks. The SWF team gets the info without using perk slots. This is an advantage on the level of cheating (which is different than saying it is cheating).
I would say that 90% of my game have at least one organized team of two SWF players. I know this to be true by looking at their friends list.
Yes, I mean that of streamer level. By your example, I would consider that very organized as well. We have totally different experiences. I'm about 512 hours in this game and if I'm not SWF myself, then I rarely even see 3 people SWF, let alone 2. I can agree that a veteran can possibly lead 3 average players to a win but 3 bad players? I'm not so sure. "I'm going for the save" while they have already dropped gens will still waste time. Depending on killer perks as well, they may not even be able to continue the gen a la Deadmans Switch.
Maybe I need more hours in this game to experience what you are. I consider myself an average player but I still sit at a 70% loss ratio. Different experiences.
Also, to apply tournament style rules to all SWF's would be harsh. We can agree to tourny players try harder than normal players. Some SWf's just play just to hang out with each other.
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SWF is literally the ONLY chance survivors stand against killers right now. The state of solo queue is unplayable. If they "banned swfs" you'll find yourself playing against other killers because no one is gonna stay for that torture.
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I played 4 survivor games tonight. First game I was face camped by a knight and my team did not blast gens. I should have killed myself on hook to punish them but didnt.
Second game I had one survivor who had 2 mins to finish a gen solo and was hiding while the last gen got done. Me and another survivor had a gen to 90% progress. I died that game b/c I finished the gen while the other girl ran and hid. This game would have been super easy except one girl quit. She quit on death hook but that 15 seconds cost me my life in exchange.
I played two more games where I escaped because nobody on the team was mentally handicapped. I had 3/4 good games even with 2 games having bad players.
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"I consider myself an average player but I still sit at a 70% loss ratio."
That's not average - of if that is average add me to your friends list and we will fix that.
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How do you mean?
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I remember the game without SWFs. Survs asked for that, that's ok. The problem is BHVR didn't balance it differently.
And i asume the main reason now they go the path of buffing solos (instead of giving SWFs limitations or an action debuff in general) is, the game can't even track anymore who's playing with friends, esp. since they added crossplay. The same reason they can't even show who played in SWFs in the tally screen after the game is finished.
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One word: KNIGHT
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People have suggested showing who was in a swf at the post match screen but then people would complain about how many 2 man and 3 man swfs they get
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This is an awful post on the forums, that says alot
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This made me LOL so hard omg
Also there is no way to stop swf or anyhting. I mean they could add base kit stuff for solo q but how would they ever tell the difference >.>
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