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Dead Hard still needs to go

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Comments

  • Monlyth
    Monlyth Member Posts: 982

    My source is Hens, and his various scrim matches against the likes of SupaAlf. Decisive Strike sucks if the Killer and Survivors play suboptimally, which they don't in comp. The meta has barely changed since 6.1.0..

    Needing to be next to the Killer to activate an exhaustion perk is not a drawback, at least not when that perk is a third health state. The onus is on the Killer to get within striking distance of you, so if you're caught in a deadzone, sprinting away at normal speed and then hitting Dead Hard will still get you more distance than Sprint Burst.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,607

    I mean, scrim matches between the top players in the world are not going to be representative of how the meta actually exists in the regular game. In the majority of matches there's a lot more perk variety.

    I didn't say it was a drawback. I said that because you aren't close to the killer, you get more distance. At no point have I argued, or will I argue, that Dead Hard isn't good- it is. It's one of the best Exhaustion perks even now. It's just not OP anymore because it can almost always be avoided and even a successful use is far less damaging to the killer than it used to be.

  • Monlyth
    Monlyth Member Posts: 982

    You seem to be switching constantly between "normal matches" (Whatever that means, given that near-optimal 4-man SWFs are hardly unheard-of in normal matches) and competitive play to defend Dead Hard. Pick one and stick with it. Either way though, saying that it's easy to counter or avoid is patently false if even comp-level Killers can't do it with any kind of consistency.

    I'm beginning to think you're trolling at this point. No, you do not get more distance when you aren't close to the Killer. Dead Hard gives you more distance overall whether you got a head start on the Killer or not.

    And saying that a successful use is far less damaging to the Killer is hilariously false. The best-case scenario for pre-rework Dead Hard was making the Killer miss a swing and reaching a pallet/window you otherwise wouldn't. The best-case scenario for post-rework Dead Hard is putting the Killer in cooldown for a hit (Rather than the shorter cooldown for a miss), getting a big speed boost for free, and making it to a whole nother, much stronger loop.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,607

    I've been talking about normal matches this whole time, you're the one bringing up tournaments and comp teams.

    Okay, so, I think I've done a poor job explaining what I mean by the distance thing and that's on me, so I just went to the wiki to reconfirm a few numbers so I can explain it a little bit more in depth. When you get hit, the on-hit sprint burst effect lasts for 1.8 seconds as of patch 6.1.0, down from 2 seconds. This is the movement speed increase you get when you get hit during the Endurance window for Dead Hard; 1.8 seconds of distance, while the killer is slowed.

    Lithe, by contrast, gives you 3 seconds of a sprint burst. If you activate Lithe from further away than basic attack distance, you get a longer speed boost that starts further away, so you get more distance from Lithe if you're a little bit away from the killer than you would from an activation of Dead Hard. The only difference that could make up that lost distance is that the killer moves normally, but bearing in mind you proc Lithe off windows, there's a good chance they'd have to walk around that anyway, so that basically doesn't affect anything.

    I'm no maths whiz here, but we're operating on pretty basic number concepts here for the whole thread. This is what I mean when I say that Lithe gives you more distance than Dead Hard because you are further away from the killer when you activate it. Lithe here is more comparable to old Dead Hard, where you wouldn't bother using it to dodge a hit and would instead use it to get to a tile and reset the chase entirely, because you got a dash while further away from the killer than M1 range. Old DH was just stronger because it was on demand, which Lithe isn't- but new DH has no distance inherently, making Lithe the better pick specifically for making distance without trading anything other than Exhaustion.

    Just to be clear, Lithe is an example, the other Exhaustion perks we've talked about work the same way so shuffle them in to applicable scenarios for the same overall point. This isn't to say Dead Hard is bad, far from it, the reason it's still comparably powerful to these is that it's more versatile, but that versatility comes at the cost of much less distance and having to trade in Deep Wounds for avoiding the hit.

  • Monlyth
    Monlyth Member Posts: 982
    edited December 2022

    Again, your math is failing to take into account the Killer's cooldown time for a hit, which slows their movement to a pitiful 14% for 2.7 seconds, according to the wiki.

    You get caught in a dead zone and start running away. Sprint Burst gives you 150% speed for 3 seconds, while the Killer is chasing you at 115% speed.

    You get caught in a dead zone and start running away. Dead Hard gives you 165% speed for 1.8 seconds, while the Killer is chasing you at 14% speed for 2.7 seconds before returning to normal speed.

    The cases where other exhaustion perks will give you more distance are a rarity at best. Not only giving yourself a speed boost but absolutely crippling the Killer's speed (And for Lithe's case, making them unable to vault the god-window you just vaulted) is absolutely incredible in terms of gaining distance. There's a reason it can take so long for the Killer to get the second hit even if a surv isn't using any Exhaustion perks. And Dead Hard forces the Killer to get a third.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,607

    Sure, in a dead zone Dead Hard is more useful- that's why it's more versatile. But the maps aren't majority dead zone, and having a drop or vault to proc Balanced or Lithe is not exactly an uncommon thing-- it doesn't have to be a god window, it can be literally any window. I think you're dramatically overstating just how much the weapon-wipe slowdown makes a difference here, especially since it only applies to an M1 hit and a lot of killers at this point have other ways of damaging someone. Hell, maybe they've got STBFL! It's not as though that perk is horrendously uncommon at the moment.

    It is not rare for the other Exhaustion perks to give more raw distance than Dead Hard, it's the norm. They're meant to give more raw distance, and they do- making distance isn't even the best way to use current Dead Hard, you're better off using it while close to a loop you're confident in.

    It's more raw distance, and it's guaranteed distance, not distance that's dependent on having good timing and not being baited into using your perk too early. Dead Hard is good, it's a powerful perk, but it's no longer even objectively the most useful Exhaustion perk at this point, let alone OP.

  • Monlyth
    Monlyth Member Posts: 982

    Bear in mind that pre-rework Dead Hard was still the meta perk in a meta where Lithe, Sprint Burst and Balanced Landing all consistently outperformed it in terms of gaining distance. Post-rework Dead Hard can easily outperform them all now, despite also being the most versatile Exhaustion perk, same as before. 150% for 3 seconds is chump change compared to a perk that can set the Killer's speed to 14% for that timeframe.

    Most Killers still have to deal with 2.7 seconds of cooldown per hit, whether with their power or their M1. The ones who don't are pretty unusual for it, and are usually even more susceptible to getting Dead Harded as a side effect. Artist, Knight, Trickster, Pyramid Head, Corrupt Plague and Huntress. Incidentally, this means killers like Wesker can't get that much mileage out of STBFL, because it doesn't reduce the cooldown of their M2. So if you NEED a perk that not every Killer can use in order to counter Dead Hard, then Dead Hard also has the side effect of unjustly making certain Killers weaker by existing.

    Plus, STBFL only really comes into play in the mid-late game. In that first chase where the Killer has no pressure and every second counts, Dead Hard hits a STBFL user as hard as anybody.

    And here is, again, what makes me think you're just trolling. Dead Hard is META. When you get into a no-restrictions comp match, you're expecting to see 3-4 Dead Hards. By every metric available, it is the most useful and powerful perk for any Survivor who knows how to use it.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,607

    Yes, it was the meta perk then even though it underperformed in raw distance, but that has never been what Dead Hard is good at. It wasn't good at pure distance before, and it isn't good at pure distance now; before, it was used to lunge a short distance, to a pallet or window. Now, it's used to tank a hit and get less, but still decent, distance compared to using something like Lithe in exchange for it saving you from a deadzone, which the others can't do.

    And yes, it's meta now too, or so it would seem; less so than before, but it does seem to have a higher pickrate than the others. That doesn't mean it's overpowered, though- hell, it doesn't even mean it's good, in the last stats we got to see Self-Care was in the top three survivor perks and that perk is often the weakest self heal perk available. Other perks that people run a lot are just "good", not "need to go" levels of overpowered. There are more things that go into pickrate than just strength- consistency, ease of use, how comfortable players have gotten using something that only got slightly weaker, things like that. If someone were to say DH is the most consistent Exhaustion perk and that's why it has such a high pickrate, I'd be inclined to agree; the risk that you'll not get to use it because the killer's good at baiting you is pretty easy to justify in the face of potentially saving yourself from deadzones. Does that make it OP? No, it doesn't even make it the most powerful tool available, it just makes it easier and more comfortable to use than the others.

    I'm not trolling you just because we disagree, dude.

  • Monlyth
    Monlyth Member Posts: 982

    Okay, you're either arguing in bad faith or trolling. We already went over how Dead Hard outperforms Sprint Burst in pure distance, and if it can outperform Sprint Burst in pure distance, I'd say it's EXTREMELY good at pure distance. If you're just going to make the same debunked points over and over, it's not productive talking to you.

  • Steakdabait
    Steakdabait Member Posts: 1,265

    If those were SBs against oni he wouldn't have gotten his power in the first place. SB is simply the better perk against m1 killers. DH is better against killers with predictable but strong powers.

  • Monlyth
    Monlyth Member Posts: 982

    I find it hard to believe that one of the best Oni mains in the world would never, ever be able to nab a hit. Especially on maps that are actually balanced like Coal Tower. And once they do have the hit, suddenly Dead Hard becomes a lot more appealing against the Demon Dash-Demon Strike.