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Winning without tunneling at high MMR is near impossible
There is a mathematical problem in DBD. Gen times are simply too quick, even excluding genrush perks, items, or addons. It takes an aggregate of 450 seconds of gen work to pop all gens, or 112.5s per survivor. Even assuming perfect conditions for the killer, a survivor team that splits up on gens against a killer that tries to 12-hook then, even with 20 second chases every time, the math still favors survivors. Survivors are simply too efficient. There is a reason why 3-gen 4-slowdown is such a meta strat right now, along with tunneling someone out early: it's because it is near impossible to win consistently without this strategy, without the survivor team throwing big time.
Comments
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Maybe you are not up to high MMR
24 -
The main issue is maps not gens, if you’re playing a 4.4 killer on Red Forest for example it’s gonna seem like gens are flying simply because it takes so long to traverse the map, a group of survivors can complete a generator while you’re walking from one end of the map to the other
the issue isn’t generator times themselves, it’s gen spread and map size
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So at the theoretical highest level of play (which isn't consistent due to the MMR not working that way), you need to play sweaty against other sweaty people.
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I agree that map design is the bigger issue, but even on smaller maps, a properly split up survivor team is very difficult to pressure. The problem is just accentuated tenfold on larger maps like Ormond or Garden.
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Well, the good news is that no game of DbD takes place in a lab setting and a good amount of math immediately goes out the window when you factor in killer powers, tile spawns, gen spawns, RNG, and other things.
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Maybe the game is simply fundamentally unbalanced. If survivors can complete their main objective in 112.5 seconds if left completely alone, or 150 seconds assuming one is busy at all times, a killer can't be expected to get 12 hooks within 150 seconds.
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You actually spelled out why tunneling early is one of the WORST strategies a killer can use.
Tunneling a survivor from the word "go" is what will get you the scenario of survivors being maximally efficient on gens. You chase one guy, hook him, hover around the hook so you can chase him as soon as he's unhooked, repeat until he's dead.
Problem is, only one survivor needs to come for unhook. Leaving the other two free to do gens. So instead of pushing people off gens and buying time, hardcore tunneling makes the other two or three survivors free to slam gens with impunity.
Sure, you got one guy out. But the cost was four gens.
Spread pressure and keep people off gens. You can win with 12 hooks and 0 slowdown, it's just a matter of using the right strategies and the right killers.
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i can agree to it but only when u play B tier killers and below, killers who can apply tons of pressure rather quickly can do it but i dont expect u doing it with wraith for example or pig... so i do get it and is normal.
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The main issue is map design. Both size and how overly safe many tiles are. It makes pressuring survivors adequately for most killers and on most maps near impossible.
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Spreading pressure against good players means you waste 30-60 seconds getting an injure, running into pallet after pallet being predropped only to drop chase to go pressure another gen, and your pressure gets reset by a medkit.
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"I lose because I'm HigH mMR and the genes are rushing" or "I can only play Nurse, Blight, Spirit because I'm HigH mMR" are just excuses and the stats clearly show that MMR is a hidden embem system, btw: earlier it said "the people in the red ranks gene rushing i can only play nurse" and everyone knows how bad the MM was xD
finally understands it, if mmr really only worked a little bit, then all killers would lose most of the time except Nurse, Blight, Spirit and not Wesker, Dredge, Plague are the top tier killers in the kill rate xD and by the stats you can also see the relation to the general MMR a few percent are shifted which is also logical, I mean if instead of "high mmr" (top 5%) you take 0-20% 20-40% etc... of each mmr then you have in all different mmr classes, different percentage of killers (the kill rate)
dbd has no MMR! you can take a banana and give it the shape of an apple and paint it but at the end of the day it will remain a banana, bhvr can say "MMR" as often as it does at the end of the day it's basic a bad matchmaking simple like the emblem system and NEVER a skill based matchmaking
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The mmr system is not good at all. Simply because its soft capped and "high mmr" actually isnt that high because your starting mmr is higher than half of the soft cap.
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This is absolutely true. In both directions.
Gens can be slower and they can be faster. The baseline should always be a reasonable amount, especially when one side only needs to hold m1 and hit occasional skill checks. There's just an absurd amount of variables with too strong of an impact on any given match, especially when such a large number can be loadout focused on either side.
This is also a great point, but begs the question: there's always plenty of talk about bringing solo and swf closer together, but why does that never extend to tightening the gap in killer tiers? The basekits and addons never seem to keep up with the game around them, and a lot of times they get made worse instead of better when they get reworked so it feels like a monkey paw scenario to even ask.
Basically the game needs a metric ton of normalization.
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When killers are saying this, they mean "I can only play Nurse, Blight, or Spirit if I don't want to tunnel , proxycamp, use strong addons or slowdowns to win consistently". And that is true.
Also, this streamer is known for doing clickbait content, for the majority of players (survivors). In the past, he also said Lightborn was broken because no counterplay. He will say anything to get views.
I stop listening when he talked about "the killer community". Excuse-me but what community ? The 1/5 players of the small DBD playerbase ? Lmao, what a joke.
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Amazing how everyone is always high mmr. That aside there are alot of factors that go into a match. The map and map rng being the most important factors. To claim you have to tunnel to win at any level of play is disingenuous at best.
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How do you win against a coordinated SWF with full meta perks, predropping every pallet, splitting up on gens across the map, calling out where you are at all times and who you're chasing, avoiding each other's gens, and taking hits for each other? The only reliable strat is to tunnel someone out ASAP, and hold out a 3-gen. This is also what you see high level players do, along with a lot of camping to force trades/advanced hook states.
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Hey, Im in chase around Gen 2, do Gen 1 now.
Hey we finish Gen 1.
Alright Im running to Gen 3, do Gen 2.
Hey we finish Gen 2.
Ok Im at Gen 4 now. Do Gen 3
- Survivor dont run into teammates Gen
- Survivor makes no mind game mistake
- Survivor accidently run into non-pallet title
- You stuck kicking a pallet and survivor W 200meter away from you in a 90meter length map
- A Teammate instantly spawn right infront of you to take hit for the chased survivor. Then instantly spawn back to their Gen
- Teammates instantly spawn to another Gen after finish one
- Then Gates instantly open after finish the last Gen.
- You fail to use your power
- You refuse leave chase
- You ignore a teammate on Gen when chased survivor runs pass them
- You fail to make a single success mind game.
If your game play goes like this...the conclusion is
Somehow Killers always explain the game play that Survivors play like 4 Gods and Killers play like Carniflex homing to a target survivor.
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While I appreciate the hyperbole, its simple: Gens take absolutely zero skill to do, and are only really limited by efficiency. The more organized and efficient survivors are, the faster they get done. The more killers are able to bust up that efficiency, the slower they get done, which amplifies the dynamic shift away from survivor and toward killer advantage. You could argue about killer not taking skill because of X reason, but they are always up against another player when interacting: Gens don't fight back, so the same is not always true for survivors.
For the record I also think that players on both sides wildly misjudge their own skill and even grasp of the mechanics of the game. Thats a major flaw that comes with outcome based focus in a game with extreme variables that detract from skill as the determining factor of said outcome.
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I mran... you're not supposed to win consistently.
That's the point of mmr ? Putting you in close matches you will win or lose roughly half the time.
If the game was balanced for killer to win consistently at high mmr, it would be damn near unplayable everywhere else.
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It definitely does not do that.
I think, right now and not counting the issue I had yesterday, no more than 1 person has gotten out of the gates against me since the 15th, iirc.
Idk if other people share my experience but that's what i've got.
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It does not do that consistently, no. And the softcap being so low is part of the problem, I'd wager.
But my point still stands. High mmr killers (or killer as a role) are not supposed to win consistently (through "normal" gameplay aka no early tunnel).
Using sweaty tactics like tunneling to maintain a high win rate only makes sure they'll keep facing increasingly hard teams, as it will now take more losses (which they don't take well) to go back to a level they're better adjusted to.
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The devs have said only a small percentage of the player base are at high MMR. So I can't see them making any sort of balancing around that level. To get into high MMR in the first place, for both killers and survivors, requires alot of sweaty play. That energy won't change once you're at that level. The survivors you're facing in high MMR are there purely because they utilise the most gen efficient perks and best tools. You're not going to find meme or fun builds in high MMR unfortunately. Sweaty survivors will get sweaty killers and vice versa.
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Keanuwhoa.gif
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High MMR doesn't mean jack in this game, it's the same as old red ranks meaning that the skill level of "High MMR" is incredibly inconsistent because of how easy it is to reach it and stay there.
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You guys are also in high mmr? Me too
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You def can get 12 hooks with no gen defense and no tunneling... if you're playing vs. potatoes.
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Not true in any capacity, since the stats show that even the top 5% mmr dies a lot to meme killers like sadako, if so many people of the highest mmr can die to such a joke killer you are still facing potatoes in high mmr, meaning you can still win easily without doing things like tunneling.
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Mm, MMR starts to break down at the absolute highest levels of play - because they tweaked the cap, ironically due to super top tier players complaining that their games were too sweaty and long queue times.
For us intermediate folks though, it's been a godsend.
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here's my 2 cents
always try to 3 gen
but while u patrol these gens, also at least patrol the 2 or 3 gens closest to them
running at least call of brine is great for this. but you need a killer who can apply pressure as you're patrolling these gens. anything that can get close enough to at least get 1 hit.
so the strategy is to try to get a hit on someone working on a gen. if they make it to a pallet or vault, then try to get them to drop the pallet, destroy the pallet, kick the gen, and keep patrolling. slowly you'll grind away at their defenses this way
never over-pursue a survivor unless you can down them quickly. this is #1 mistake killers make.
always hook the first 3 survivors but never hook the 4th survivor. leave them on the ground and keep patrolling gens.
if your killer can't reliably get a hit on survivors working on gens then this strategy isn't very good. you need to apply pressure by keeping survivors injured and having gens regress after u kick them.
also just have good game sense. if you notice a weak link on the team then you should tunnel them out, especially if the other 3 are very good.
if you can't reliably get a hit on survivors working on gens consider trying the fearmonger perk to negate sprint bursts usefulness which really puts a damper on this strategy, as well as monitor and abuse which will often times let you get much closer to the gens before survivors react, making getting the hit more reliable.
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Everyone will reach a point where you plateau while playing the way you would typically play. This point will vary person to person: Some people are absolute legends and will climb really high without much effort, others will cap out fairly low (and that's okay!). This is exactly how MMR systems work. The game is trying to find a spot where your playstyle, whatever it may be, will work about half the time.
That said, if you try to play in a way that'll make you win more often, your rating will increase and you will get tougher matches, eventually plateauing again where your new strategy only works about half the time. The harder you try, the tougher your opponents will be. If you feel like you need to tunnel after tunneling to win, it's more than likely due to the fact that you've climbed above your comfort zone.
To be very clear, if you're hyper focused on winning more often than not, you will have to try (and try hard at that). The game will not try to give you easy wins. Winning consistently means the other side is losing consistently, and that means the matchmaking system isn't working.
Trying to boil the game down to an equation doesn't really work. In your example, you haven't factored in the time survivors spent saving their teammates. This is by far the most important factor in the game: Pressure. If you have one survivor on a hook, another in a chase, and a third going for a save, that leaves only one survivor left free to work on generators. This is also something you sacrifice by tunneling one survivor; the other three have nothing to do but generators since you aren't giving them a reason not to, so your generators will fly by. There's way too many factors to stick a number on it without grossly oversimplifying it.
All that aside, I really wouldn't assume you're at high MMR (not just you, OP, but anyone). The actual distribution of people across all MMRs is like a bell curve. There's a lot of people in the middle and very few at either extreme (high or low). The vast majority of people will fall somewhere around the middle. While I don't doubt that some folks here truly are playing in the high MMR range, the amount of people there are so low that it's a really bold claim to make when you can't even see your rating.
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It doesn't happen like that everytime
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None of what you said is necessarily wrong, but it ignores some factors as well. For all the talk of survivors needing to go for saves being pressure, there are an awful lot of ways to heal and undo damage caused by anything short of a down, which makes injuring more meaningless when there are multiple medkits and a CoH or two in play. There is a very real sunk cost fallacy present in almost every chase in a large portion of the killer roster: If they can't spread injuries faster than people can self heal through multiple means, it doesn't actually apply any pressure (except in specific situations, like camping a hook while everyone is injured to force trades/hook state timer.) Especially since there is not only no penalty for repairing gens injured, but it can even give them a bonus to it. This is why a lot of killers get stuck in the mentality that they have to consolidate their pressure by overcommiting to chases, tunneling, etc: spreading pressure with anything less just feels far too fragile with how easy it is to completely undo any and all of its progress.
People have been calling this out since CoH was introduced, and even the numbers adjustments haven't approached the issue at all, especially since that constantly has the factors like travel time/distance ignored in snuffing boons similarly to how you pointed out they were ignored when it comes to concepts like saves. The baseline efficiency factors are offbalance and purposely so to accomodate more inefficient players, while having far too little in place to account for how off balance it can be with efficient ones. Telling people "you need to lose more to not go against that" isn't even a valid reaction when the softcap is apparently quite low: Those sweaty players who abuse everything they can still need to be able to get matches, so there will always be people who don't sweat in kind who get caught up in decreasing the matchmaking time for the sweats. Playing at off hours like 2am can feel like torture regardless of your MMR, so you can't even rely on the forced losses to try to get you into more reasonable matches on either side.
The fact that the MMR distribution is similar to a bell curve also supports this, as again, the top MMR need to be matched with a lower MMR just to be able to have a population distribution between both roles. Due to it being unable to be strict, it will always have tons of bad matchups irrespective of how individuals play. The main difference it creates is increasing the liklihood of coordination between survivors (be they solo or swf) and the killer being either too strong or too weak for their average opponents, depending on the distribution of role participants in their matchmaking pool. Instead of normalizing matchups they feel more stark than ever, so players are much more likely to assume the worst and use the loadout/tactics that give them the most advantage.
Post edited by Ryuhi on6 -
To this, I'll respond that the main playstyle at the top levels of play (i.e competitive) is to hold a 3 gen and tunnel/camp someone out as a standard, because it is near impossible to win a game against a competent, coordinated swf, on a relatively average map, if all 4 are alive. As long as at least one person is constantly on gens, the killer is constantly fighting a losing battle. In this scenario, I'm excluding the killer using slowdown perks, or the survivors using genrush strats (since I'd argue 4x bnp commo is much stronger than the strongest 4x slowdown stack).
All pressure the killer can dish out gets relieved relatively quickly in most conditions, when medkits, COH, deliverance, adrenaline, we'll make it, and other strong recovery perks are a thing. Dishing out pressure is something that costs the killer time. Injure someone and commit to a different chase? In the best conditions, two people are healing (16s), one person is being chased, and one person is on gens. After 16 seconds, your pressure is lost and you gained no new hook states. As it stands, there is zero incentive for the killer going for a win to not tunnel someone out of the game as early as possible, regardless of what it takes, because spreading out hooks is objectively a worse decision, outside of any outside rules present. Even in the best situation, assuming quick chases, it's better to target two people in specific, or "soft tunnel" in order to reduce the odds of the tunnel out stealthing for long enough.
This is a mathematical fact: on a lot of maps, killers HAVE to play dirty to win, because tiles are simply too safe. I remember doing a breakdown; even assuming a 10s down time between chases, 10s hook, and 20s chases, a killer spreading hooks out evenly will get 6-7 hooks at best before all gens pop. The numbers only get more absurd when you factor in things like hyperfocus stakeout toolboxes (50s solo gens), BNPs (40s solo gens), Prove Thyself (48 second 2 man gens) etc.
6 -
No.
Sometimes it's much, much faster.
You get a SWF that runs Hyperfocus/Stakeout/Fogwise/PTS with 3x BNPs and send you to The Game, and you literally cannot hook and kill them fast enough.
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Because every game is a well coordinated 4 man swf. Will you have those games, sure. They aren't as common as everyone likes to claim. Under those conditions you might need to tunnel to win. That is not the average game though.
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When the median playtime of this game is 190 hours or whatever it is, saying you are in the top 5% seems meaningless. Most people are not good at this game, even the people who play several times per week. It would be more interesting to see the stats for the top 0.1% or 0.01%.
Peanits comments of camping/tunneling being required because you've "climbed above your comfort zone" only makes sense when talking about lower MMR players. You see comp teams camping and tunneling with the strongest killers in the game and averaging maybe only 2 kills. Same goes for plateauing and losing half the matches. Doesn't happen for better players.
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Yes, because MMR totally works.
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The fundamental problem isn't that you have to play sweaty against sweaty people. The fundamental problem is that, for both sides, the most optimal way to play the game is also the least fun for the other side. Now imagine that the most optimal way to win the game, was to do the thing that is the most fun. The game would be in a much healthier state then.
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True, but I don't think that's what the OP was meaning.
Even if the most optimal strategy was fun, it'd still be sweaty. That's how high ranks work
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I don't know, I seem to run into an awful lot of these at all times of the day. I'm talking 4-man character swap to p100s with stacked items, I'm talking at least one BNP every game (often 2-3), I'm talking purple medkits when I see a medkit, I'm talking 4x Adrenaline, 2x OTR, 4x DH every game. I'm talking chases end near instantly when I'm playing Blight or Nurse and 3 gens pop before I even walk to my first hook. I'm talking rotating running across the map to take a hit for whoever is being chased to delay the down.
Aye, if the top killers in the game tunnel as a standard to win (and still often only get a 2k or so), then his rhetoric of "playing above your means" doesn't really make sense. It's either you're playing to win or you're not.
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I have probably under 200 hours on survivor, am admittedly pretty bad at it, and die way more often than I escape. My overall escape rate is probably under 20%, and that's being generous.
In the past week I've gone against ArrayGamer twice and Ralph once. I have absolutely zero business playing against people in the same room as these guys, let alone these guys themselves. So I guess I'm "high MMR" despite losing nearly every game?
I'm sorry, Peanits, but MMR is horribly, horribly broken. I'm sure a lot of effort went into building the system but it does not consistently create good play experiences, not by a long shot. When you are putting <200 hour players who lose the vast majority of their matches against killers with over 7k hours you really need to take this system back to the drawing board.
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Exact to what Peanits said. Whatever you use and how you play, MMR put you to place that it should be work half of the time.
Your try hard should be equally matched with other try hard.
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he never said lightborn was broken lmao he outright calls the perk bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8eCJdmuTWM&t=370s
as for clickbaiting 90% of his videos are titled along the following: "Thoughts on current hot topic/random idea from stream - Dead By Daylight" or "Best of stream highlights" with the majority of the thumbnails just being his face or a random snapshot from the video if you consider that clickbaiting then idk
Post edited by Steakdabait on1 -
You are so insightful.
If only you could go to their balance meetings and fix this for us.
😀
Why is tunneling an issue if people are playing solo anyway? It only annoys me when I SWF and I have to watch a match as an out. It doesn't even feel like illegitimate play, like a lot of odd things survivors have evolved into doing, like bodyblocking. Tunneling feels rather like the natural, although unfun thing to do.
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Because I would like my matches to last more than 3 minutes.
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Just do another one?
I understand it isn't fun, but thats like a core game issue. Something that maybe they should sit down and rethink for their next project.
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Agreed with majority of things but I do have an issue. with this statment.
"All that aside, I really wouldn't assume you're at high MMR (not just you, OP, but anyone). The actual distribution of people across all MMRs is like a bell curve. There's a lot of people in the middle and very few at either extreme (high or low). The vast majority of people will fall somewhere around the middle. While I don't doubt that some folks here truly are playing in the high MMR range, the amount of people there are so low that it's a really bold claim to make when you can't even see your rating."
Are you ever going to proove this. The information we have been given about MMR in the past from the devs leads to a lot of assumptions. Such as if you escape you gain MMR, if you kill you gain MMR, you die you lose MMR and 3 or more escape you lose MMR. So based on this if you average a 3k or higher then its very safe to assume we are at top MMR level. If you really really want to shut down the MMR discussions on "high mmr gameplay" then let us see our own MMR level in game. Doesnt have to be something everyone sees but similar to grades make it something just the player sees. The statement " it's a really bold claim to make when you can't even see your rating." is kinda ironic don't you think. I personally think its very bold to claim that players arn't high MMR (which we have based on logic and what we have been told about the MMR system in the past) without giving us any proof of this what so ever.
Let us see our personal MMR levels and then according to the logic that very few are at top MMR then the "top mmr gameplay" posts would stop.
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Truly love this statement. Personally, i could careless about losing as a survivor. If a killer is hard tunneling my teammate, i will very likely sacrifice myself so that person can stay and play longer. If i lose, oh well. My mmr will decrease, and ill get a killer that most likely wont tunnel and more than likely be easier to win against. A crazy cycle, but thats the beauty of matchmaking.
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That's the problem! the mmr cap has made bhvr so low that you are matched with every hundred hour player who has no idea of gameplay dies in sec etc. so it is clear that this is about 5%, there is no 0.1% once 1% and below, the cap would have to be increased for this (as before)
when mmr came out the soft cap was 1900, was increased to 2000, then it was reduced for "quick queue time", which didn't lead to anything except that the experienced good players left dbd or almost only played swf , when the "killer buff patch" came, the solo q went under completely and the few remaining experienced players (including me 8k+ hrs) then also thought to themselves "why should I play with a hundred hours of players when I play swf or killer myself can?", then I sometimes read in the forum "where are the experienced (good) players gone?" well, quite simply in a swf, killer or they have distanced themselves from dbd, which is also understandable, let the people in csgo who are global match with people who are silver-gold or in League GrandMaster-Master is matched with bronze-silver, You'll see the good players running away from you, I mean there are always new players, but will they put thousands of hours into the game like the long-time players? i don't think so, most of them will dabble around in dbd a lot more and probably put it aside in the end, but anyway bhvr can do whatever you want if you think you should leave matchmaking in the game, which doesn't involve skill has to do and is just frustrating, even for new players
example (I have experienced this several times): solo q: my mates inexperienced hundred hour players, me alone with 8k hours against a 6k+ hrs main Nurse, blight, Spirit players (who even play comp) Of course I can't carry that alone, really fair matches thanks bhvr, or I'm like "ok then I'll play swf!" we thousands more than thousands of hour players often get killers the few hundred hours have the 0-1 hook at 5 made gens, fun and interactive directly from bhvr, thanks again "fun by daylight"
0 -
Nice joke....
90% survs have prove thyself = you spawn - cross the map -- 2 or 3 gen pop - go tubnel/dc/afk/camp
I had 25 games with 20 of them swf
Swf=breaks the game. Counters any killer any perk any build.
No build can counter what swf voice comm gives you...
But instead of balancing game you buff solo q to be like swf cheaters
Killers not fun, killers is suffer to play, swf and genspeed ( in solo q would be ok just nerf prove thyself ) are reasons why game is unbalanced, why killers suffer.
All you need to do for survs is bring swf voice comm to win.
As killer you need to be God Tier player to win swf and only if this swf not tunnel gens and try to bully....
How about aura surv perks??? Why would swf for exp bring aura to see killer near hooked surv???? No they just say it on voice = +1 perk.....
Swf voice comm is like having 3 loop perks to run forever drop 300 pallets while 4 perk is prove thyself for coordinated 30 sec gen while in chase... And 5th perk is voice chat giving you full map aura on everything with exact locations....
How blind are you not to see it???
Why i would want to play dbd killer when its 90% games unfair and how everyone say i must accept loose vs swf.....
Nice new patch now solo q can counter half killer perks just by looking when surv is to be hooked down, now more genrush prove thyself bec they know when chase active etc...
I deleted game
Why i cant choose as killer to play vs swf or not?????????
All who would say that then swf would not be played at all bec all killers will cancel swf - you just confirm the problem that swf is op breaking the game
Add a choice to killer
Or for exp if its swf every surv in swf must bring RADIO perk which is giving nothing but its obligatory.....
Devs you forget that killers are ppl, who also want fun...
Running 3 min loop with 300 pallets/windows and see 3 gens pop on 1 hook is funny for surv but not killer....
STOP BULLY KILLERS
we are people
But as game is going all killers will be bots soon
Low skill ppl still say why no eruption nerf in new patch? Ahah
If you dont see that new patch totaly destroy eruption just bec you can see before someone go down...problem is in you not eruption etc
4 vs 1 impossible so ppl tunnel JUST TO HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN
i quit
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