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Survivors being able to take the game hostage is a problem.
Survivors hiding and refusing to work on generators is against the rules because it is refusal to participate in normal gameplay and taking the game hostage, and it can potentially lead to a ban.
It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's a genuine major issue. The only option is to video record evidence and report them after the game ends to hopefully get them banned, but that doesn't help while you're still stuck in said game until it ends.
There needs to be some sort of measure to prevent this kind of thing from happening. It can easily cause a match to go on for 20-40+ minutes of a useless goose hunt for survivors that could be hiding almost anywhere in the map.
It is ridiculous to expect running specific perks or add-ons or playing specific killers that are better for dealing with this kind of situation just in case the survivors decide to play in a literally game-breaking manner. It is also unreasonable to expect the killer to spend an insane amount of time to pore over literally every single part of the map part-by-part to check every single bush, locker, corner, etc to find survivors that are intentionally preventing the AFK crow from taking effect.
Comments
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It is annoying and rare, but like you said you can report and get those survivors banned assuming you recently encountered people playing like this.
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Which does not solve the problem of being trapped in a game that can go anywhere from 20-40+ minutes.
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You're right. Truthfully, devs should implement some type of anti-AFK system. Something like survivors getting their aura revealed after not interacting with anything after maybe 3 minutes. A system like that could work and would help. Plus, I'm pretty sure devs added a system that makes the game end automatically after an hour in-game. This also helps a little but they should shorten it to something like 40 minutes. An hour is far too long.
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I agree. It being reduced from 2 hours to 1 hour was an improvement, but I think it could still be shortened to 40m. Even if it's an actual not-hostage game, at 40m, it's probably a snail's pace 3-gen back and forth anyways.
And I do think some sort of measure to reveal survivors if they don't attempt to do anything is needed.
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Sadly they can avoid it like they do now with the AFK crows....but fun fact Iron Maiden is a lovely perk to deal with those hostage takers....
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Unfortunately even there is a counter to it.
Last week i played against a huntress with iron maiden and only 1 other survivor and me were trying to play the game.
Only once the 2 of us were hooked i saw what the other 2 were doing.
They were in the basement the entire time going into lockers and walking around there.
They were running calm spirit, so the killer never got a notification and a scream.
I watched for about 10 minutes and the never left the basement whatsoever.
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This wouldn't work - survivors would just tap gens, tap boons, get in and out of lockers to remain active.
The issue of survivors 'holding the game hostage' is a response, in the main, to the current trend by killers of trying to slug for the 4K, not counting the evident trolling example mentioned above which is an extremely rare occurrence.
Whilst refusing to work on gens properly is a massive annoyance to killers, I'm sure, it's something that is happening because killers are camping player 3 who is down and using them as bait then periodically running off to find player 4 and doing gens just enables that you to be found quicker - especially when there is an insurmountable amount of gens for 1 or 2 people to do (in general if 2 of your team are gone with three 3 gens remaining, you aren't getting out and once people know this stop bothering there and then).
So, to resolve this situation it needs to address the issues that both sides are facing and causing, it's not just a case of 'survivors are holding the game hostage' because in the vast majority of cases when this happens, and it's not as rare as the OP suggests imo by using these parameters and that's coming from someone who is a survivor main - it's actually REALLY common, it's in response to killers slugging for the 4K.
There is a persistent pattern on this forum of blaming one side for things when both sides need to be examined - the last time this was the case was the whole 'Dead Hard' meta. Killers were blaming their need to tunnel and camp on the overuse of Dead Hard by survivors; completely ignorant of the fact that, as someone who has been around since 2016 but who have never used DH and just observed the situation, DH had seen a rise over the years in response to camping and tunneling (proven by the fact that despite the DH nerf and massive killer buffs they still C&T massively) and it was a vicious cycle both sides contributed to.
Post edited by jajay119 on8 -
Fun fact you can completely avoid afk crows by being in a corner and constantly picking and dropping an item
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I think it's one of those problems that will always be around, even if they do start handing out bans. Comes down to two solo players pretty much waiting for the other to die. I typically die third in my games because the 4th survivor will hide while I try to do gens.
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On one hand, it's annoying (though very rare).
On the other, I can understand why it happens. At 2v1, anything more than a couple gen left is literally impossible to do unless you or the teammate are extremely good at chasing, which is typically not the case.
From there, it's self-preservation to hope the other survivor gets found first. Why should you forfeit your potential escape bonus for a complete stranger who might have done nothing all game ? Or who might sell you out if given the chance ?
I don't know what can change for this kind of situation not to happen. Maybe make the escape bonus less important, and instead buff the points you get while actually doing stuff during the game ?
Until something is changed, I'll take one for the team and walk up to the killer to sacrifice me so that other dude gets their chance.
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1. It's not taking the game hostage it's literally the only viable move for survival if there's more than one gen left and it's a 2v1.
2. Killers drag games out all the time slugging for the 4k. I don't see how this is different.
I agree I'm not a fan of it occurring but BHVR should create a new mechanic for 2v1 situations. Hatch is too powerful with two survivors left in the sense 4ks would never happen but maybe give survivors a mini sole survivor where they do gens 50% faster so there's a chance doing gens is actually viable with two people? Maybe 50% isn't the number but could be tweaked until the right number is found.
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I do agree that something has to be done to make 2v1 less of a complete condamnation, but it has been said before by the devs that this situation is indeed considered hostage taking.
The survivors are not trying to progress the game by any means, and only hiding around.
In the case of slugging for the 4K, it's unpleasant, but at least the survivor has a timer after which they're dead and hatch appears. So slugging them is still progressing the game.
I don't say that I think it's fair, just, that's how it works.
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That's kinda dumb because at the end of the day survivor wincon is escaping it's just gens are how you do that 95% of the time. Asking survivors to throw away thier chances of winning for the sake of the killer is silly. Yet another reason this MMR system is terrible.
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Doesn't seem all that rare to me. Nearly every 1v2 I get as killer ends with me having to hunt down a rat hiding somewhere doing nothing. Fortunately I run Whispers nearly all the time so it's not a big deal.
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It's...not exactly rare.
There's a trick that's been around for a while that allows you to literally never get AFK crows. Somehow, this has finally caught on so I've had a few games recently where they've 3genned themselves, and the last two survivors will basically go and hide in a locker somewhere and attempt to stall out the game until I quit.
Technically against the rules, but I cannot even find an anecdotal example of someone being banned for this.
- Yeah, it kind of is. You aren't trying to do gens. You're literally abusing a glitch to circumvent the AFK crows to stall the game out for 20-30 minutes in the hopes that the killer DCs. By this logic, walling someone in as killer is 'just trying to win'. I had a game on Myers where they literally 3genned themselves on Asylum (which...actually takes some doing) and after I killed the Dwight, an Ash and a Meg did this for about 25 minutes before we get the timer and they died. Postgame, literally: "Lol why do you need to win so badly, just let us do the gens or we hide". That's literally taking the game hostage.
- It's not even close to slugging for the 4k. That's annoying, but it ends within a minute or two. The AFK trick can go on until you hit the timer cap.
- The problem with adding mechanics like that is suddenly you make losing someone a powerful tactical decision - and you'll see situations where folks deliberately DC/suicide to give the other 2 a guaranteed escape.
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Ultimately, things need to be considered as they are, and not on the premise of a game that doesn't exist anymore. DBD as a game has changed so much and the way people play it has changed so much that the parameters of the game, I feel, need to be updated.
Officially, as Hug the Hag says - Survivors refusing to do gens counts as holding the game hostage. But I feel this rule was created when the current slug for the 4K meta wasn't a thing (which it never used to be - and this is when Suvivors used to have a much stronger role in the game too). But, as you say, the main goal of the survivor is to survive by any means necessary - whether altruistically or selfishly is down the to player choice. But there is still a lot to consider.
To me, when there are only two survivors left you should at least try to engage in normal play by doing gens or something. Even if three gens between two people feels insurmountable. The killer can still choose to play normally, enter chase, hook and move on which lets you play normally until the game fairly comes to a natural end.
Two health survivors, imo, shouldn't just be hiding out (if there are two of us left and 4 gens to go or something, personally I tend to just find the killer and get it over with). You can say the killer is still able to find and kill people so it's not holding the game hostage; sure they can... but let's be fair and balanced and look at how reasonable that is. How long could it take with careful stealth by survivors for the killer to do this? Especially with things like Boon: Shadow Step, Bite the Bullet, Off the record and Lucky Break etc. in play? A hell of a long time.
However, I think when you enter a 'Slug for the 4k' scenario, this needs to be viewed differently. When one survivor is down and isn't hooked - you know the killer is looking to find and hook player 4, before going back for player 3 who has been left with no choice but to bleed out. It also becomes nigh on impossible to go in for the save as P3 is being used as bait to be chase and slug P4. Any amount of gens, when the third player is slugged, also becomes impossible because 90 seconds, if the survivor has no perks or toolkits, it more than enough time for killers to get around most maps multiple times. They'll also just switch between camping the gen they think you're working on and the downed person. So, in this situation for P4 hiding becomes the most efficient way of surviving because you can try for the hatch, then the door when third person bleeds out or the killer inevitably get bored and does what they should have done in the first place and hooks.
The difference is, what the killer is doing seems to be acceptable; even though they know their actions will create the very stalemate and 'hostage situation' that they're complaining about and I think that is what needs to be changed and addressed. Imo, slugging and leaving someone down indefinitely should also be classed as taking the game hostage, because you know and willfully initiate the stalemate which likely wouldn't happen if you hook someone as they tend to suicide to leave player 4 alone in the match when there are too many gens to do... which progresses the game despite having nothing to do with gens. If they address this, I guarantee instances of 'survivors taking the game hostage' would drastically reduce due to the nature of the game changing.
To me, this is akin to why the hatch was changed; it was a legal action.... but one that detrimentally impacted the experience of one side in benefit of the other. Slugging the last two people is, in my opinion, akin to two survivors escaping through the hatch. Killers will argue it's not because escaping through the hatch took 'no skill'. I disagree with this; not getting tunneled out for having a key, getting the number of gens to equal the amount of survivors left -1, actually finding the hatch and then organizing people together to escape took skill if you're not in a SWF (Which most people aren't lets be honest) clearly takes time, effort and skill. Is it more skill than holding W, when you're naturally the faster one, and slugging? Then luring the last person in or finding them to do the same? Debatable and not a debate I'm willing to have now. But my point is, the two situations are comparable in that they give a disproportionate benefit to one side and not the other. One was changed in recognition of this, and it's high time they other was as well.
How do they do this? I don't know, that's not my responsibility to figure out. But claiming survivors are taking the game hostage isn't fair these days without looking at the current state of the game.
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1. I'm talking about stealthing around not abusing the item glitch to avoid crows. The glitch should probably be patched out.
2. It's 4 minutes if the person hasn't been downed before and then it depends if the two people try to pick each other up. It is definitely not 1 or 2 minutes lol.
3. That's not a guaranteed escape and people already D/C like crazy so that wouldn't really be any different from what happens now.
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We need a new global form of Idle Crows.
Currently, Idle crows spawn after 60/75/90s of a survivor being 'Idle' which means not interacting with objectives, and also not moving a significant amount (it checks for distance from a 'checkpoint' taken every few seconds to determine if a survivor is idle)
Add a new global Idle Crow determinant as well.
If no survivors have progressed an objective (which would include making repairs to Generators, activating Exit Gates, cleansing or blessing a Totem completely and healing other survivors) for 90/120/150s then all survivors accrue an Idle Crow.
The most they could 'game' this system without giving away their location would be to cleanse each totem while the killer as as far away as possible. This would buy them about 7-8 minutes at most, if all totems are still standing and if they manage to space each totem about 89 seconds apart. Otherwise every other qualifier would require them to do something that would give them away, mainly making repair progress to gens that the killer can detect.
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- You can't really talk about playing hide and seek without talking about that exploit. Either way, it's completely different to slugging - because the goal of slugging is to kill everyone, while the goal of hide and seek is to try and force the killer to DC or AFK. And if it was easy to patch out, it probably would have been already. Again, hide and seek is more analogous to walling someone into the poop room on The Game.
- Yeah, that's a big if. But regardless, 4 minutes is not 20-30 minutes.
- Sure, but the last thing we need is more DCing.
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Not comparable even in the slightest. One is active refusal to play. The other is the killer slugging and continuing to play via looking for other survivors so they can chase and down them.
If it’s a 2v1 and both survivors are standing, they are required by the rules to attempt to repair.
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- The goal is not to make the killer DC it's to survive which is the objective of the survivor. If the killer can't find either of them that's on them.
- It's not that uncommon with how often tunneling happens usually someone will be dead with someone else not having been hooked yet. Again it's 4 minutes minimum in that situation and if the killer is fine dragging things out for a 4k they should be fine with survivors dragging things out to survive. To suggest only one's sides objective is valid and the other side must cave to it if they're behind is ridiculous.
- I mean agreed but I don't even think it would lead to anymore DCs as games are still very winnable with 3 people most times.
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- Yeah, it absolutely is. What else would the purpose of hiding and avoiding AFK crows for 30 minutes be? You're not going to survive if the end timer hits, you're just making it impossible for the game to progress, wasting the killer's time to try and make them DC - because there's literally no way for them to end the game. Really not sure why you're defending this - it's basically like saying 'well, walling a survivor in so they can't do anything is trying to win, so it's fine' or 'using level geometry to make yourself unhittable is perfectly okay because it's letting you survive'.
- No, that's just BM. The game will end shortly. Also - it's going to be changed. While we don't know the exact form this will take, BHVR are definitely looking into it. Also also - whataboutism.
- Hahaha what? No, they absolutely aren't. If the killer is playing to win, someone DCing before like...2 gens is an autoloss unless matchmaking pooped the sheets.
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- The goal isn't to hit end timer though? Just to outlive the other survivor so you can get hatch or doors. Like your entire point here just seems like trying to argue in bad faith and assuming the survivors are trying to grief rather than just trying to win. Also again if the killer can't find anyone in that time that's on them.
- With how poorly basekit unbreakable was received there's no guarantee we will get it in any form and BHVR has said as much so this is just you spreading misinformation. "Shortly" is relative and again not a reason for one side to throw the game.
- but if there's 3 people and 2-3 gens that's not a reason to DC? Like that's difficult but still winnable so I don't understand what you're talking about. Granted some people will still DC in that situation cuz RIP soloQ but a new mechanic would not change those numbers much. 3 survivors is still better than 2 survivors with faster repair speed depending on what the number is. So I don't know where you think this will encourage people to DC or how that guarantees escapes.
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- You won't find them. That's the goal. They won't have AFK crows, and will be in a random locker at a random point on Asylum, or hiding in a bush, almost invisible. And it's almost always done as a duo - not to sacrifice someone else, but to stall the game out. Once again - no idea why you are defending this crap. It's obnoxious to play against and really just wastes everyone's time.
- Shrug. Mandy literally replied to me as I was responding to you, which is why I edited. Unfortunately, time is linear. Regardless, it's definitely on their radar. And again - 4 minutes is not 30 minutes.
- Eh. Think of it like this. 3 people remain at 2 gens, with 1 survivor on each gen and the killer chasing the third. Currently, the third gets downed, hooked and then the killer might have time to push one of them off the gen, or they'll come for the unhook. Under your proposed buff, that third survivor could DC after being picked up, which would guarantee that the other two would finish their gens (50% is absurd).
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There is an IDV mechanic that has quite literally solved this problem. Reveal survivors if they have not made progress on a gen after 3 minutes or so. Easy peasy.
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- Bring tracking perks. Also again this is assuming the worst from survivors not every team is a SWF sometimes it's just two solos that don't wanna die and they are perfectly in their right to not throw themselves at the killer.
- Okay
- Escaping with 3 people is still preferable to 2 and I'm not married to the 50% number that was just a starting point obviously change it to where it feels the most balanced but at least it's something to encourage more interactive gameplay and have survivors still have a chance to win. Because at the end of the day I don't want this situation to be occurring as much as it does but I actually wanna find a solution that feels good for both sides rather than your stance that seems to be well if I have 2 kills I'm automatically entitled to the other 2 because the survivors should no longer prioritize their own survival.
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the only people that complains about this are the ones that slug the third survivor and look for the 4th one, just hook the third survivor and look for the hatch
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what rules? hahaha imaginary rules
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As others have pointed out already, what do you expect survivors to do? Just do gens? Why, when the game's already over and there's no chance of progressing gens if the killer doesn't let up (most do not)? The gens are bait for survivors, more like.
The goal for them is to survive, anyone with a brain isn't going to just hop on a gen knowing the killer is patrolling & will immediately get in chase/down you.
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Ehm this isn't about slugging for the 4k but the last two survivor BOTH hiding, no one downed there to slug?
The devs, they confirmed it as "holding the game hostage" and therefore reportable.
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Refusing to participate and preventing the game from progressing are literally against the game's rules. They are nuanced to separate legitimate and illegitimate cases, but the devs and community manager have chimed in on this multiple times across multiple topics. That said, this is similar to 3 gen defending in that avoiding being found is considered different from continuously doing nothing and hiding for extended periods of time, which is why people need to be less hyperbolic when discussing it in any incarnation.
You die if the server shuts down, just like you die if the EGC ends. You have to make at least some effort to continue the game if you are actually attempting your goal to survive. Again, this is where the nuance in trying to outlast a 3rd survivor ranges from legitimate to illegitimate: If the amount of time involved with zero interaction is excessive, both survivors are guilty. With the solo indicators being added this excuse will become even weaker, as you will have a lot more information on what your teammate is doing. If you see they are in chase and still refuse to work on gens for example, you are not attempting your objective.
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The game timeout should be reduced from an hour to 15 minutes (with an onscreen timer displayed for all players). Any survivor that hasn’t escaped by the end of the timer is immediately killed by the entity. People don’t want to do gens (which, as they’re so fond of pointing out, is their only objective)? Then they lose quickly.
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15 minutes?
maybe a "quick game mode", but a normal game being limited to 15 minutes is too much.
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What happens if they just tap the gen for a split second every 3 minutes and then go back to hiding?
It is stupid and unreasonable to expect someone to bring perks just in case survivors decide to literally break the rules to take the game hostage.
You are required by the rules to attempt to progress generators.
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You can bring Whispers and still have room for Eruption, CoB and Overcharge so I don't think it's that unreasonable. If survivors have to bring Unbreakable to avoid slugging, killers can bring Whispers to find immersed survivors.
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Again, not comparable. At all.
Expecting people to give up slots just in case the other side literally breaks the rules in a bannable manner is stupid and unreasonable.
Slugging is a part of actual gameplay tactics as the killer continues to play looking for the rest.
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You can still see their aura.
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So should the last two survivors just let themselves die? Like what do you actually expect to happen? And don't say do gens because you know full well if there's more than one gen left that's not a viable path for escape for two survivors.
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You can run once you see/hear killer approaching. But you are required to attempt to actually progress generators. Tapping for a split second and going back to hiding does not count.
I expect them to follow the rules and attempt repairing. Why should it be a viable path for escape? Half of their entire team has died before the survivors have finished their objective. The killer is in a position of overwhelming advantage.
It’s the exact same if it turns out killer has 3 total hooks with no one on death hook and gates are open. Is it probably hopeless to get more than 1 kill max if the survivors have half a brain? Yep. Does that mean the killer is allowed to just give up and AFK then? Nope.
If you aren’t willing to play out a game you’re behind in, don’t queue up.
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There’s a very easy fix for this. If the survivor team collectively doesn’t touch a generator for an extended period of time (I don’t know what would be “fair” - maybe 3 minutes?) then crows should start giving location alerts to the killer. BHVR has apparently decided this is not a big enough problem to spend time on.
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This literally just translate to yes you expect them to just give up and die which just isn't reasonable and reads like entitlement. It's not comparable to killer because killer always has a chance to get one kill especially with end game perks like NOED, survivors don't have an equivalent other than maybe sole survivor which is still a D tier perk.
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Ah yes, this is a classic case of a problem that should be addressed but it won't because of how often it happens
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I expect them to play by the rules and play it out even if it’s a losing game.
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If no matter what you do you can't win (because the game will end) and you're too busy playing prisoner's dilemma with the other Survivor, then yes: I expect you to give up and die.
Because what you're saying is that you don't think you can complete your objective if you take part. You're hoping that either the other Survivor will slip up (and the Killer, who is trying to play the game normally, gets them) and you can get hatch, or that one of the other two players will outright quit, thus letting you win.
Not dying is not trying to win. I expect you to try and win even if it's impossible, much like I'm still going to try and kill someone, even if there's 1 hook at 0 gens left and I have no endgame perks.
If actually playing the game when you're losing is too much to ask, go play a singleplayer game. Don't waste an hour of someone else's life and free time because of some stubborn inability to accept defeat.
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I cannot believe I have to actually say this.
No, being in a losing situation does not mean you get to break the rules and hold the game hostage.
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Dude, seriously. You can argue as much as you want about how it's unfair to survivors. However, it doesn't change the situation; it is considered holding the game hostage when two survivors are left in the match and decide to hide and evade the killer, all while not progressing their primary objective in the game. You can argue all you want, but taking the game hostage for 10-20, if not more, minutes are just BM.
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Playing to survive actually going for the objective. I'm not talking about a duo trying to stall the game as long as possible, I'm not talking about exploiting glitches, I'm just talking about trying to outlive the other survive and escape. If the game goes down to 2 survivors in about 8 minutes and the killer can't find and down one of the other two survivors in 52 minutes after that that is literally a skill issue. Realistically it shouldn't take longer than 5 or 6 minutes if the killer has any competence at all.
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"Trying to outlive the other Survivor" is not trying to win, it's just stalling out the losing. Do. The. Gens. Do not squat in a corner and hope the person actually advancing the game dies.
Also, two people, who could be anywhere in a huge map, most of which you can't see, on the other side of walls, and the ability to silently hide in any one of dozens of lockers, and as long as they're not too still the game won't point it out, and you're claiming it's a "skill issue" if you can't find them? Hm, yes, find the person who's not doing gens (no gen noise or progress to narrow it down), running (no footsteps or scratch marks to find), hastily vaulting (no noises or loud notifications), or standing out in the open away from cover (therefore low-visibility even without the crouching)... gee, I wonder what skill someone's meant to use in that position. Are they supposed to smell the Survivor? Seeing through walls at all times and echolocation aren't in the game. Only one side constantly gets a clue if the other one is close to them and, hint, it's not the one doing the searching here.
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Surviving is not a objective but the GOAL of Survivors.....thier objective is to REPAIR GENS and ESCAPE either through the doors or hatch. But Mandy and the Devs have said that hiding and not doing Gens is holding the game hostage and liable to bans.
It's dosnt matter how you feel about this because it's moot point when things have been specifically said about this
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It's called making a grid and it's not that hard.
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