Boons are too efficient
They either need to be "default self care speed" or have charges. It's not fun to play against a boon as killer where the survivors can heal faster than it takes to cause an injury.
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I don't know why boons are unlimited in the 1st place.
It would be just fine with 2 tokens.
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CoH is a 50% penalty on its own, right? That's not really all that fast, the problem is that it stacks well with other healing speed boosts.
Also, CoH should not function differently to all the other boons, with regard to charges. I've not watched that video so maybe it addresses that, but if it can't function like the others, it needs to just be reworked entirely- an outcome I'd personally be in favour of.
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boons are just dumb and they didn't get affected by the self care nerf for some reason. like why would anyone use self care over coh?
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Just give CoH 'charges':
- Say, 2 health-states worth of charges (This amount can be changed for balance purposes). Once they are used up, CoH de-activates on that totem. (Worded this way in case more than one boon is on the totem; ONLY CoH deactivates).
- Once used up; that totem cannot have CoH re-applied to it for the remainder of the match.
- If a Killer Snuffs that totem; the charges are remembered for that totem. IE: If someone re-applies CoH; it has the same amount of charges it had when it was Snuffed.
Fixed. Survivors can't infinitely re-apply CoH, and it eventually runs out, in case they apply it in a dead-zone that the Killer would have to waste time running too.
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Honestly it would be "ok" if boons were a high risk high reward thing. If you place a boon and the killer kicks it then it's gone forever the first time (without them needing to use a perk). Why? Because that's how hex perks work and there's no way you are going to explain to anyone that more than half of the hex perks we have in game are even remotely good as boon CoH.
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Why would boon perks have to have the same downsides as hex perks, when they aren't the same mechanic and aren't meant to be the same mechanic?
The way boons are actually designed - that is to say, the way all of them except CoH are designed - they're meant to be used near the killer. If the Shattered Hope effect became basekit, all the boons would be useless save for CoH because their core concept would no longer function.
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I feel as though they're fine how they are tbh. Killers can injure a lot faster.
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The problem with CoH (not all current boons in the game) is that, you can put it anywhere you want and killer won't really have time to do anything about it.
Any other boon must be pretty close to the action, so it's atleast at a risk of getting snuffed.
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There was a good idea for a nerf to boons and buff to hexes They basically made it where a version of shattered hope was basekit, everytime you snuff a boon it turns into a Burnt Boon, and if it is booned again you can kick it again break it. You could also boon a hex totem and turn it into a cursed boon, with the effects of the Hex and the Effects of the Boon both being active. Meaning a killer would either have to sacrifice the hex or allow the boon to stay. Pentimento Hexes couldn't be blessed and worked normally.
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Are *Boons* too efficient or is *Boon: Circle of Healing* too efficient?
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Exactly, Boon are never the problem is just COH that is bringing out the worse of Boons.
Even if the healing speed bonus is 100% or even 0%; that still doesn't with the fact COH unlike every other boon perk ever; can still be used efficiently just about anywhere, especially if it in a obscure part of the map like the top floor of Ironworks or even the corner of the map outside of a 3 gen. The ability to Self-Care without any healing penalties, the fact you can stack it with every medkit/ healing perks, and also the fact that even if the killer goes out of there way to go stomp this perk yet it can always come back (which becomes a pointless and even annoying problem; that can hurt the perk).
COH is literally the one Boon perk, that has high reward and no risk at all; unlike every boon in which those perks will always be at risk of being snuff and shut down any chances to get some value of it.
Either COH needs to only work when close to the killer, or better simply put removed the Self-Care aspect and make it a teammate oriented perk. Make it revealed injured teammates so that you have to relie on teammate to heal you, as well as making it weaker if you lose teammates or completely useless when you are last one alive. Also, medkits shouldn't stack or healing perks. But I also be down with limited charges, so that it cannot be used again once certain amount heal charges are consumed.
Also, I am fine with Survivor booning as many times as they want, as it helps Killers like me with buying time through them not doing gens. What I am However not fine with, is the ability to destroy Hex Perks for free and CoH in particular being way too unbearable to deal with it, yet there is no clear way to stop it completely beside identifying the booner and straight up camping and tunnelling that guy to death just so the boon stays dead. Not really easy, when there is more then one booner and they can literally place anywhere where I would never find them.
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Here's the issue. A team of survivors gets 16 perks. There could be 0 to 4 boons. If you look at some of the most intense games from Otz, Coconut, Hens, Truetalent, *your favorite streamer here* - you will see that boons are a massive aid to survivors.
Imagine if hex totems required a boon to "delete them". Everyone would be using Devour Hope and Shattered Hope. If you don't have any boon players then you can't delete DH.
Somewhere around two to three years ago there was an internal test to the game where they made it so you can heal twice per game. After that you play injured. If that became base kit then boons would be fine. The issue is that being able to repeatedly shrug off injury quickly from the killer breaks the game.
One of the only things that VHS got right is that every hit matters. Hits need to matter in DBD.
Tell me you didn't watch the video without telling me you didn't watch the video. The boon in that game overlapped so two downed players in the basement got a free unbreakable from the boon.
There is zero excuse to have CoH and NOED not have similar rules. The old 2016 NOED is about as fair as the current CoH.
Base kit killers should be able to break totems when they interact with a boon. That is a very simple way to limit boons in a reasonable manner. It would also create pentimento interactions.
Shattered Hope would have a niche 2/10 purpose but could instantly destroy the boon on the first kick.
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...Again, you're describing Circle of Healing there, not boons. Maybe Exponential too in a few niche cases, but categorically what you are saying does not apply to Dark Theory and Shadow Step. Boons, as a mechanic, are not equivalent to hexes and nor do they need the same balancing. They are designed to be used near the killer, meaning the killer has much more ample room to snuff them, and then setting them back up again is a little slowdown to keep survivors off generators.
The problem is not boons, the problem isn't even just CoH in some vague way, the problem is that CoH can be set up away from the action and not just be as effective, but rather more effective. Personally, I think CoH is a symptom of a larger problem (overtuned healing in general) and not the cause, but even if it is its own problem, it is clearly only CoH and not boons as a whole that need changes.
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Boons are fine, it's just COH that's annoying, but like @jesterkind said, the larger problem is healings in general.
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Totems should always be a limited resource. Inner Healing gives you one heal for one totem, which is a perfectly fair trade and use of said resource. CoH is simply far too powerful in comparison.
Now obviously there's a huge gap between CoH and other boons functionally. Other boons need to be in the action to be used. But what makes this risky? The killers ability to find and snuff them out.
Shattered Hope could easily become basekit, if boon totems were simply harder for the killer to find. Make boons as difficult to find as Hexes are, and it's perfectly balanced.
- No global 'thunder' sound notification for the killer when a totem is blessed. This means survivors are more likely to get value out of the totem before it gets discovered and destroyed.
- Much smaller 'lullaby' range for the killer, so they have to be within about 6m to hear it, instead of the 12-16m it currently is. This makes the non CoH perks more likely to survive in high traffic areas.
Then, rework Shattered Hope as a perk. It gives you the aura of the Booner when snuffed, and it shows the aura of Boon totems within 8m or something.
Even with these changes, CoH would still be stronger than Inner Healing, and it would still be stronger than the other boons, but it would crucially give killers a meaningful counter to it, and making finding and snuffing it out feel impactful and rewarding. Currently, snuffing out a CoH totem feels like pissing into the wind.
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Shattered hope should become base kit.
Shattered hope perk could instead get a new effect:
When you find a boon, you can taint it, which "reverses" its effect:
Tainted Circle of Healing prevents healing from injured to healthy state
Tainted Dark Theory reduces speed by 2%
Tainted Exponential prevents getting out of Dying state
Tainted Shadow Step makes scratch marks last longer and applies Blind on survivors
Effects applied in a radius equal to the original boon radius effect.
Tainting the boon takes X seconds.
Survivors can cleanse the Tainted boon totems (this either destroys the totem or makes it dull, not sure which would be better). Boons can either not be applied to another dull totem as long as the original boon is tainted OR it could be applied to another dull totem if the original got tainted - this would, however, create an opportunity to for the killer to taint the new one, too and so create even bigger "nerf zone".
This way the perk would be a counter to boons as intended. If noone brings a boon, then the perk would be useless just as now but if you bring a boon and the killer has Shattered hope, your boons can backfire, but you can cleanse them and reapply somewhere else.
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Honestly, I didn't. Half because I was at work but also because, as my post implies, I figured this claim about Boons in general to *actually* be about Circle of Healing in particular, as that's been the case about 99% of the time people complain about Boons. Which your posts seem to bear out, even excluding CoH is the thumbnail of the video.
This generally disinclines me from taking the complaint seriously as it is, at best, sincerely mistaking the issue with one specific perk as an issue with the mechanic as a whole and, at worst, actively deceptive pretending the whole mechanic is an issue when the wonk is only about one perk. In either case the complaints are specific to CoH because, far as I'm aware, Shadowstep, Exponential, and Dark Theory don't have the problems CoH has.
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Watch the video when you're not at work. Count how many times the survivors heal. Watch them use the boon to get up off the ground when they would otherwise be slugged in the basement (a nearly guaranteed death sentence). One of the survivors called out by Winter had already used his unbreakable.
CoH is probably the most effective boon but all the boons need to have some base limiting factor so you can't just put a thing out that can never be removed.
Shattered Hope should not become base kit. The killer should be able to destroy a totem by kicking it with an interaction. The killer would not be snuffing the boon - they would be deleting the bones. That means for example on a map like Iron works of Misery you need to think very carefully about when you put the boon upstairs in main building
Small changes would be needed for hex totems to play around the fact that bones would get deleted. Make NOED able to come back on a deleted totem (considering the aura change this is not a big deal). Make a perk like hex plaything be able to revive a dead totem for the first time a survivor is hooked. Interactions like that keep all the hexes relevant and keep boons relevant.
This would also limit boons to be a thing that can eventually be removed completely if the killer is forced to break a boon five times. Given how strong some of the boons are this would be fair for a base kit ability.
Alternatively: if the killer is not allowed to break bones basekit then let the killer rekindle any of his hexes on top of a boon or non deleted set of bones. This would force survivors to break every totem on every map because killers would always use a perk like Blood Fervor. If that perk could be turned back on multiple times it would be worth a perk slot and relatively equal to a perk like CoH.
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I don't think boons are an issue, CoH is the issue. CoH is way over tuned.
You can self heal with CoH generally faster than most killers can land a hit. It kills the hit and run play style single handedly and with only one perk out of sixteen..
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No, its 75% because it stacks with itself
This is confirmed by running both Botany and COH at tier 3, it will result in a gray bar, if either is not then it will be a red bar
This of course relies on the killer not having any mangled perks or addons
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Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't the Botany interaction imply it is -50%?
Botany is a +50% boost, so those two should in theory cancel each other out for a neutral grey bar, right? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, the nuances of how speed bonuses and penalties work in this game can be confusing lol
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I honestly think a good solution would be instead of deleting them and doing all this, if the killer snuff the totem the boon will take 50% longer with each and every boon on that totem, growing exponentially
That way, the totem stays on the map but also makes putting a boon there more unviable
This can probably be better accentuated by making the dull totem darker and more charred as to show that it was damaged because a boon was snuffed there and to not confuse it with thrill of the hunt or calm spirit or cheating, etc
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Why would you down those survivors in the basement anyway and leave them there? I mean I get letting them live on 2nd hook and all but if you're going to do that you should always snuff the boon first or don't complain about it lol
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Yeah I'm pretty sure that's the best overall idea although I would like to add that if it is cleansed by a survivor then their perk gets permanently deactivated too and/or possibly only allow the person who placed the boon to cleanse it, although this might create some problems
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Convenience, a challenge, don't have COH or simply can't be bothered finding a totem
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You mean just COH? The other boons aren't strong enough to warrant that kind of nerf
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It's not additive, but multiplicative
If this were the case COH could be at yellow tier and you would still get a gray bar, but that's not the case
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I really doubt you would be playing Hag better. He doesn't know where the boon is but it was close by. Had he left the basement everyone would have escaped. He played that scenario nearly perfectly given the bad situation handed to him.
There is actually a much easier fix. Years ago there was a test for "no healing". It played something like after you healed twice you were broken for the rest of the game. That would make CoH "fine" but not address the other boons.
If that is too extreme then just have healing take +50% longer every time you heal. That means after being healed twice if you want to heal again you have a +200% heal time.
Either option would address overtuned medkits as well as boons. Using this portion of the video with that in mind some of these heals would have been in the 48-64 second range.
The unbreakable boon could probably be given two charges and it would be fine.
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No, it would be useless then.
@topic CoH has been nerfed to a good spot. It only needs to not work with medkits.
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This video is a pretty clear indication of why Boons are not in a good place.
Healing should probably be limited in some global way (see above) so that boons can stay like they are now and be weaker overall without actually getting changed.
Or as I said before killer should be able to break bones when interacting with a boon as base kit.
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As a solo queue survivor plagued by one person resetting and resetting their boons and never touching a gen, I can wholly get behind this.
There's games where 3 boons of the same benefit are placed; why? There's such a low cost to placing them. Placing a boon max of 2 times and the killer being able to smash the totem bones when they find the boon seems very fair.
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