Perk Reworks: Killer Edition
-Killer edition-
There will be a survivor version to follow.
Disclaimers:
- These are not necessarily the "best" changes possible, but simply the best changes for the least amount of developer time invested. Trying to get more perks into the viable category, ie buffing/reworking weak perks that are barely used. This isn't a post for nerfing any overperforming perks nor is it implying perks don't need nerfs. We're just focusing on weak ones here and diversifying the meta by giving more perk options.
- I will be constantly updating/changing/adding to the list as I have more time and as feedback is received. Please stick to constructive criticism for changes. IE, this is good or bad and why.
- Keep in mind that even though some of these may seem heavy handed that they are competing with regression perks for a perk slot. They need to be close in terms of the amount of time saved to compete with those.
Nurses Calling: 28 meter range ----> Now 32
Not a bad perk, but still rarely seen. Not a significant buff, but a little. I also think with how good Distortion is it's very hard for aura perks to ever get too out of control as if they ever got meta Distortion can completely shut them down. For this reason I'll be a little more giving in terms of buffing aura perks in general going forward.
Awakened Awareness: Return the few seconds of aura reading extension after carrying a survivor.
This was originally removed because of Nurse. However, we shouldn't be building/nerfing an entire game around 1 single killer, that isn't good design. Nurse needs changes separately.
BBQ: 4 sec aura reading ----> Additional effect: the minimum range for the aura reading will shrink slightly for each unique survivor hook.
Since the removal of the BP bonus this perk has basically disappeared. This further encourages "fair" game play. It's also competing against gen regression perks for a slot.
Beast of Prey: In addition to its current effect, gain Undetectable for 10 seconds after dropping a chase.
Triggers very often but for a very short duration. Gives some potential target swapping mind games.
Blood Echo: 45 sec duration ----> 60 sec duration. Removal of the cooldown.
This rewards a killer for applying split pressure instead of tunneling people out, this is the kind of game play we want to encourage. Also has the counter play of simply healing.
Blood Warden: Should be active as soon as the gates are powered, not open, but doesn't start the 60 second block until the gate is opened. In addition there will be a gate block of 15 seconds added for any future hooks. If it's currently blocked this adds to the timer and if it's open it just blocks for those 15 seconds.
Punishes them for 99'ing the gates and encourages them to open immediately.
Bloodhound: In addition to its current effect it now gives blood aura reading at a very short range, something like 10 meters.
This perk is basically non existent and this might give it some actually tracking use for people that stay injured or mind games at loops. It also makes blood last significantly longer so the blood auras aren't going to be super accurate all the time. This ideally isn't helping you mind game at loops because of how lingered the blood is, it's more of a way of knowing where injured survivors are that are near you but further than hearing range.
Brutal Strength: 20% increased break speed ---> 30% break speed and ups the base gen kick regression to 5%
Pretty underwhelming perk and still not used enough. Little umph.
Claustrophobia: Instead of vault locations being blocked around the completed gen they will now be blocked for the duration around the killer.
Give it more use since you rarely need vault locations blocked around a gen already completed.
Coulrophobia: Effect will linger for 10 seconds after leaving the killers TR.
A lingering effect like this needs to honestly be applied to almost all aura effecting perks to make them more consistent. People don't heal in a killers TR.
Coup De Grace: Now gives tokens per gen and hook.
Just a terrible perk. Giving it a little more consistency. Everyone hates the current token system.
Dark Devotion: Undetectable on Obsession hit is currently 30 seconds -----> 60 second duration
Not rewarding enough for the inconsistency of the perk.
Deathbound: Remove the range requirement.
It still has the counter play of staying near the person you healed to prevent it from triggering.
Deerstalker: 36 meter range ---> No range limit and slows slugged crawl speed by 20%
Dissolution: Remove the 3 second delay on hit for the perk to activate.
Needs more consistency, you're rarely getting value.
Dragon's Grip: Cooldown of 80 seconds ---> 40 seconds
Dying Light: Remove the healing and unhooking bonus to the Obsession and the perk no longer deactivates when the Obsession dies, the perk simply freezes wherever it was at with tokens and you can't gain any more.
The perk isn't good enough to warrant all the downsides it has. It needs to be a perk with very little effect early on and only becomes noticeable if you can keep the game going long enough.
Fearmonger: Duration of 5 seconds ---> 10 seconds
5 seconds of Exhausted is basically worthless as you can easily lose this mid chase.
Enduring: 50% stun reduction ---> 70% stun reduction and is now active even while carrying a survivor.
Fire Up: Just upping the numbers to actually matter. 4% ----> 8%
This now makes the percentage actually relevant and moves its strength from late game to early game.
Forced Penance: Increase the consistency of what is considered a "protection hit".
This is an extremely inconsistent perk with protection hits very rarely happening. Make it so hits would be considered "protection hits" if another survivor was within like 10m of that survivor in that last 10 seconds or so. This would have it activate more often to be worth running.
Furtive Chase: The TR reduction is now outside of chase as well as in chase.
This makes it irrelevant early game but the longer the game lasts the more effective it becomes. Yes this can stack with Monitor and that can get their TR quite low, but remember this takes a while to stack up and he's getting up 2 perk slots to do this. If he doesn't get a lot of hooks it's doing nothing. Rewards playing well.
Gearhead: Remove the stipulation of requiring an injured survivor to activate it, it's just always active. However, it now only activates on great skill checks instead of good ones.
This makes it very good against good survivors and bad against bad survivors, just the kind of design we're looking for. It also means the perk is active way more often, but now triggering less often.
Grim Embrace: On top of its current effect it now also blocks all gens for 15 seconds for each first hook on a new survivor.
This gives it the same blocking power of Corrupt and Deadlock but unlike those you're only getting that effect by playing in an extremely fair way and splitting hooks instead of tunneling 1 person. This encourages fun game play and rewards the killer for doing it.
Hangmans Trick: 6 meters around a hook ---> 10 meters
Needs more consistency.
Hex Crowd Control: Now blocks windows for any type of vault, not just fast ones and duration is raised to 30 seconds instead of 20. All vaulting speeds for survivors are lowered by 20 percent as well.
This is a hex perk, it needs to be significant in effect for how fast it can be gone.
Hex Face the Darkness: Screams trigger every 25 seconds with auras shown for 2 seconds ---> Every 15 seconds auras are shown for 3 seconds.
Not good enough for being a hex that can be removed immediately. We improved the proc rate and aura reading but removed the scream to prevent it from preventing itself from being cleansed. Removing the scream also prevents the survivor from knowing you see them.
Hex Huntress Lullaby: 6% regression ---> 10% regression, also has no token build up and just has the 5 token effect by default.
Not good enough for being a hex.
Hex Retribution: Oblivious when interacting with a dull totem for 45 seconds ---> Oblivious when interacting with any totem period and Oblivious effect is now 60 seconds. Hex Retribution is no longer a hex perk itself.
This gives the perk more umph and consistency with the perk itself not being removable too early.
Hex Ruin: 100% regression ---> 200% regression
The perk wasn't over tuned and only rewarded players who were good at pressuring multiple survivors. Just tunneling one person out makes you get very little effect out of this perk. We are also leaving the additional new effect on, so if anyone is killed it cleanses itself.
Hex Third Seal: No longer requires a hit and is active on all survivors from the start of the match. The blindness effect also hides survivor huds and the ping effect survivors see when a survivor is hooked.
This makes the perk more consistent by getting value out of it immediately and the blindness now actually adds more confusion than previously as they can't tell who's injured or on the ground.
Hex Thrill of the Hunt: Same effect, but is no longer a hex itself.
This makes it more consistent in protecting your other totems as the perk itself will give you its full value.
Hoarder: Additionally interacting with any chest or item on the ground will trigger Hoarder and injure the survivor as a trap. Cannot down any survivor however, only healthy to injured status.
Hubris: 20 second duration ---> 40 second duration and no cooldown
Sounds extreme but once they know you have this perk they just pre drop everything and you get zero value.
Hysteria: Lasts 30 seconds with a 30 second cooldown ---> Lasts 30 seconds, no cooldown
Easily countered by healing.
I'm All Ears: Cooldown of 40 seconds ----> Cooldown of 20 seconds
More consistent value. It's competing against gen slow down perks.
Iron Maiden: Survivors leaving lockers are Exposed for 30 seconds ----> Exposed effect removed, instead the killer is granted Undetectable for 60 seconds and the survivors aura is shown for 8 seconds.
Once they see the Exposed or how fast you open lockers they know you have this perk and won't use lockers again heavily limiting your value. 30 seconds of Exposed is also rarely ever enough to do anything. This allows you to get value from it without that survivor knowing immediately that you have it further increasing your chance of continuously getting value from it. Still will be very easy for the survivors to see you have it with how fast you open lockers and survivors in general don't use lockers too often.
Lethal Pursuer: Small wording change. Instead of aura timed durations increased by 2 seconds, it will now just make aura effects linger for 2 seconds longer.
Seems minor but actually creates more synergy with other perks and addons. Now it's not just working with timed aura durations but also makes aura effects linger. For example, things like Nurses Calling aren't timed aura durations so they wouldn't have been effected, but now with this change after they stop healing in your TR the auras would still linger for 2 seconds longer.
Lightborn: It now shows the survivors that they have blinded you just like it would have appeared normally if you weren't running the perk. This allows you to get more consistent value from the perk because when the survivor tries to blind you they won't immediately know that you're running the perk. Also when they try to blind you, gain a 5% speed increase for 8 seconds.
Mad Grit: Additional effect. While carrying a survivor your hits will also cause Deep Wounds.
Still an extremely nitch perk but there for the people that never want to get body blocked. Also the entire team will know you have it after getting its effect even once meaning you'll never see it again.
Oppression: Cooldown of 80 seconds ---> 30 seconds
One of the weaker slow down perks and would still be one of the weaker ones after this. Giving it a little more umph.
Overwhelming Presence: Survivors in your TR are effected ---> map wide
Honestly not good enough for such a limitation. Still very niche even with this.
Predator: Additional effect. Now also increases the sound of running and walking footsteps.
Remember Me: Each Obsession hit increases gate opening time by 4 seconds up to a maximum of 16 seconds ---> Gates take 12 seconds longer to open and you gain 12 additional seconds per Obsession hit up to a maximum of 48 seconds added. Gates now also regress at 25% of the normal rate if not opened.
Not adding as much as No Way Out does, but giving it the added bonus of gate regression to play around. Note that the regression rate is very, very slow.
Scourge Hook Gift of Pain: The survivor suffers a 16% penalty to healing and repairing actions each time they are unhooked until healed, not just the first time they are healed until injured as it currently is.
Perk needs more consistency, it's currently just not good enough to warrant the slow down only happening once. This lasting until healed now punishes gen rushing and makes them take the time to heal.
Septic Touch: These effects linger for 10 seconds after a healing action is interrupted by any means ---> These effects linger for 30 seconds after a healing action is interrupted by any means or completed. This aura effect lingers on survivors for 10 seconds after leaving the killers TR.
Still probably bad, trying to give it something.
Shattered Hope: Whenever you snuff a boon, all survivor auras are shown to you for 8 seconds, not just those in the totems radius. Also allows the killer to break dull totems.
Needed more. Current iteration is too situational and even in its good situation underwhelming.
Spies from the Shadows: 36 meter range for a visual queue and a 5 second cooldown ---> Map wide, aura reveal of that survivor for 2 seconds and no cooldown.
Was too situation for a weak effect. Now it's more consistent and an effect you can capitalize on more. The no cooldown won't spam you either as it's now an aura reading instead of noise notification.
Surveillance: Doesn't deactivate on gens that reach 0% regression. Essentially the effect lasts until touched.
Just some more consistency, rarely is it used.
Terminus: The broken status will last the rest of the match instead of just 30 seconds after gates are opened. Additionally any survivor injured while this perk is active will be broken for 30 seconds.
No one uses this. You need lots of people broken when the last gen pops to even see value out of this period. It needed a lot more consistency.
Territorial Imperative: New Effect to replace the old. While a survivor is hooked in the basement and you are at least 32 meters away you gain Undetectable. Deactivates if you return within 32 meters of the hooked survivor.
This rewards you for basement hooking and not camping. Good design.
Thanatophobia: Revert the last nerf.
Even in its last form and on the best killers for it (plague and legion) it wasn't overpowered. Even our current gen regression perks are better than that old combo. No one uses this perk anymore, it's just bad.
Thrilling Tremors: Blocks gens not being repaired for 16 seconds, cooldown of 60 seconds ---> Blocks gen not being repaired for 25 seconds, no cooldown, but can only be triggered once per survivor per down.
Removed the cooldown and increases the duration for more consistency but with a stipulation to prevent abuse.
Trail of Torment: No longer shows the gen highlighted in yellow to the survivors. Cooldown of 60 sec ---> 45 sec
Showing the survivors you're running the perk and when it's active defeats the entire point.
Unnerving Presence: 10% greater chance of triggering skill checks ---> 20% chance. Aura effect of this also now lingers for 10 seconds after survivors leave the killers TR.
Needed more consistency. Also still has the downside of actually helping survivors if they're good at skill checks.
Unrelenting: 30% reduced cd on missed swings ---> 40%
Merciless Storm: Remove the skill check component. It just blocks gens for 20 seconds when they reach 90%.
This wouldn't be that crazy, it's just comparable to other gen blocking perks.
Comments
-
I didn't read through all of them, and some I agreed on, some I didn't. Chili for example is at a nice place in my opinion. It's still used by 20% of killers, so I don't think it's disappeared or in need of a buff. Even without the bloodpoint bonus, it's a really solid perk.
I was interested in your rework of Territorial Imperative though, mostly because it's the first one that came to mind when I read "killer perk reworks" ! I like what you're offering, still is a bit inconsistent because sometimes you won't get basement hooks at all, but would make some nice stealth plays.
I'd thought about a Territorial Imperative rework at some point, a new effect as well. It's in the same spirit, but more consistent. You could set a small perimeter (14m -> 20m diameter, question mark ?) in any area with an action key, that would make this area your territory. Anytime a survivor is in this territory, the perk icon would light up with a number telling how many survivors are in your territory. That would make it a strong perk to monitor areas, and an actual tool for map control. You could change your territory location after a long cooldown (120 to 100s feel appropriate, but it's a very rough estimate).
0 -
I feel like a large portion of those people still using BBQ are people who don't even realize the BP component was removed. The last time I saw a single person running BBQ was literally weeks ago. It's that rare. I can't see enough value in current BBQ to where I would ever run it over just stacking another slow down perk.
I like the idea you're trying to do with Territorial Imperative but that's just way too complicated for the amount of work they'd have to put in for that. I feel like they're typically looking for much quicker implementations.
1 -
I agree, not with everything, but with 90% for sure
1 -
Yeah, a lot of the chase perks are... really easily played around once you're aware they exist. And with BBQ, it's one of those aura perks that currently go "if you don't have lethal pursuer, it starts activating while you're stuck in an animation and because you can't turn hooks around, have fun if the map is behind you".
I disagree with changing Fire Up to be a game-start one, though; especially not when it loses a stack on every gen. If you can't pressure Survivors immediately, you'll drop to current maximum Fire Up range before, what, the third chase? The idea of a perk getting stronger as gens are complete is fine... it just needs to not be "5 gens and now you do things 0.4s faster".
Spies from the Shadows: 36 meter range for a visual queue and a 5 second cooldown ---> Map wide, aura reveal of that survivor for 8 seconds and no cooldown.
The cooldown is there so you don't get constantly spammed by bird notifications, not to nerf it. xD
1 -
I actually like a lot of the changes. I will say though… as a blight main, I would be able to weaponize some of these into some crazy strong builds. Especially with a third seal change like that, mixed with how fast a good blight can end chase.
But pretty sick post! When you gonna do survivor edition?
1 -
Lethal Pursuer and BBQ are base kit in most of my killers. Knowing exactly where to go to immediately put pressure on survivors is worth more to me than a 2nd or third slowdown. In addition, you often catch sight of the rescuer which is a solid target if you want to try to force two hook states off of a single hook without camping.
I'd personally like to see a thing with BBQ where for every "first hook" on a survivor, it would reduce the minimum range on the aura reading by a bit.
3 -
I would love that coup de grace gave stacks for hooking instead of losing gens
on Territorial Imperative I would make like wire tap but for killer like for example after kicking a gen you can see survivor aura unless they repair x amount of gen progress or leave the area
0 -
Buffing numbers is not a rework. Some of the proposed changes are just straight-up buffs that can turn perks obnoxious to play against or just do nothing at all.
I'd advise you to focus on interesting perks that fall short of fulfilling their purpose.
Ex: Any Means Necessary allowed anyone to reset a pallet but if in a team without comms, any user would have to follow the killer around to know which pallets were used but not broken. The aura reading effect was suggested in these forums to add to increase the viability of the perk without buffing it for SWFs by just decreasing the CD.
How to rework one of the perks you mentioned:
Spies From the shadows
- What seems to be its original purpose? Locate stealthy survivors close by.
- Does another perk with a similar purpose performs better? Yes, Whispers.
- Best case scenario? Indoors map where you cannot see startled crows and audio obstruction can interfere with the killer's tracking.
- Worst case scenario? Open maps, where the benefit of the perk is extremely diminished.
I don't know if you ever played with Spies, but it can become really spammy. Loud noise notifications popping up every 5 seconds can be really annoying and if you just remove the CD and make it map-wide, you'll drive a bunch of players away from the perk based on user experience alone.
Suggestions on how to make the perk better include: making crows startle regardless of the close survivor's speed (causing crouching to become ineffective), making the startled crow follow the survivor (similar to AFK crows) for a few seconds.
2 -
It's still pretty good outdoors, because it works behind you. And in your horizontal blindspots. And is a lot harder to miss. xD
0 -
Some very good ideas but also some less good ones. Brutal Strength and Enduring should not be touched. They are completely fine and increasing their strength would only make them disgusting. The Hubris buff is unnecessary as well. Its a niche perk but not every perk needs to be universally strong.
Also, this might be my addiction speaking but Shadowborn doesn't need a buff. It does its job just fine. Just make it base kit already or add an option turn it on/off in the menu.
1 -
I read up until Brutal.
Brutal was also buffed during the shake up. It doesn't need anything else, it's good.
0 -
I haven't read them all but you could have saved time saying buff every perk :-p
3 -
I totally see your point on Fire Up and agree. Let’s just change the percentage to actually matter more then. For Spies if it’s not aura reading instead of a location ping it can’t be annoying so we don’t need the cooldown :) like most everything else?
1 -
I actually did say this! At the beginning I said this was all for weaker perks getting buffs and not for perks needing nerfs.
1 -
It’s still quite a bad perk which is why no one runs it.
2 -
I find both BS and Enduring to be weak which is why they’re rarely ran. How often are they going to save you more time than just stacking more regression perks? Very rarely. Hubris is rarely getting you value. You get maybe one or two procs (and that’s if you even get value from those procs) and then they pre drop everything hence why we don’t see it.
1 -
I like the majority of these changes, and I belive that they would make some bad perks used more often. After reading all of them, I wonder if Coup de grace could be stacked with unrelenting to allow the killer to lunge around the map quickly.
Some of the perks like predator would still never be used, and need some further buffs though.
1 -
Ohh I love both these ideas! Will update when I’m at the computer.
1 -
Oh I love your idea for BBQ actually! I’ll update to your idea when I’m back at the computer! It seems like a good QoL change and further encourages fair play.
2 -
It's incredibly under-rated.
This would be suggesting that Brutal Strength give a 45% buff to kick speed if it were proposed last year.
Too much imo, especially on maps without many pallets. It might be balanced on The Game, probably not on other maps though.
0 -
Thanks! We can work on fixing any that you see as problematic, what we’re the issues specifically? I tend to try and push hexes to be very strong as they need a very immediate impact on the game for how fast they can be gone. High risk/high reward basically. I’ll hopefully post the survivor one this week if I’ve got the time, it takes quite a while to write this all up lol.
0 -
Ah that’s a very good point! How about Coup just giving a much smaller lunge increase but it’s permanent and slowly gets larger per gen completed. Ie not large enough to make spamming efficient? That’s a fair point for Predator, any ideas to make it better?
0 -
Well most maps with low pallet count are low because they are much larger maps or with stronger window loops. The amount of time using BS and not using BS saves in a chase is quite small. Rarely do I ever see that getting even remotely close to saving me as much time as another regression would. Were probably just not gonna agree though but that’s okay! Not sure why you’d stop there, I’d love for you to look at the rest of them.
0 -
I like that change for Coup, although it still wouldn't be better than slowdowns, at least it would be viable.
As for bloodhound, maybe making it reveal the survivors aura while you are in chase for 1 second once every 5 seconds could work.
0 -
it's not like 10% doesn't stack with the perk, it's a multiplier so it's 25 not 30, with the rework it will be 40
and still, it will win you 0.3-0.4 seconds, instead you could take any skill to regress the generator and be much more efficient
so it's not OP
1 -
I actually disagree on your premise. Most of these perks are perks that are interesting and fall short of their purpose. These changes didn’t have to be all reworks, lots of perks only needed number changes. Which perks are obnoxious or not enough? Without specifics we can’t fix them. Finally Spies is very bad. My change would not make it spammy on the killer as we’ve replaced the noise notification with aura reading. The perk would still be awful with the changes you recommended. I don’t think keeping the perk in its “intended” purpose is even a good idea as it isn’t a very good one.
1 -
This is the post that I most wanted to reply too during the year. but I was unable to reply to it due to some external factors.
Your idea for killer perk is solid but there one problem. Survivors find killers and their perks unfun. Every single perk that they make in the game, survivors likely critic how the perk feels to go against and if a perk is effective, its label as unfun perk. As a result, most perks that get released for killer are "Unfun".
Nurses Calling - This is revert to old nurse calling. I assume this perk was labeled as unfun because it prevent you from healing and allows killer to interrupt heals. I could also see survivors saying that it is oppressive on stealth killers - Unfun perk
Bloodhound - This perk punishes you for being injured. One of strongest thing that survivor can do in this game is rush generator while injured while using safe pallet as meat-shield safe-guards towards generator progression. Your buff to this perk punishes survivor for healing and grants killer pseudo wall-hacks for survivor being injured. - Unfun
Thanatophobia: This is slowdown perk that punishes survivors when the survivor do not split up and punishes survivors when their team is not effective at looping the killer. -Unfun perk, Just look at how much people hate eruption and eruption does same thing. it punishes survivor for failing chase so they hit by regression+incapacitated for their team sucking at the chase. This is same thing but in the form of action speed debuffs. unfun unfun unfun.
Brutal strength: This is chase perk that zones the survivor in "corner" pallets. Normally when killer kick pallets, they have long animation to do so. This is to ensure that survivor can make it to another pallet after the killer innates a kick action. This perk allows you to kick pallets faster which allow killer to "anti-loop" the survivor by hitting them before they get to next pallet. -Unfun
Fire Up: This is a perk that is suppose to be based around idea of destroying pallets in late game. The problem is that the way survivors play the game is that they throw all safe pallets at the START of the game. This large reason to why a lot of killer suffer 3 generator loss in first chase. Too strong pallets that force killer to kick them and waste time(No anti-loop). With your rework, this will make a strong perk option to destroy early pallets in chase and create deadzones early on the trial. Creating deadzones early as survivor and having strong chase early on? UNFUN!
Fearmonger & Blood Echo: These two perk are designed to disable exhaustion perks. Dead hard in particular is one of strongest if not best perk in the entire game. Disabling dead hard means that survivor will be unable to extend chases. UNFUN FOR SURVIVOR!
Trail of Torment: This perk allows you to remove killer terror radius after kicking a gen. Another very powerful thing that survivor can do in the game to waste killer time is pre-run forward and hold-W by listening to heartbeat. This perk allows you to come closer to the survivor and often get opening hits in your generator patrols. UNFUN!
Deathbound: this is same thing as trail of torment. a common time to heal as survivor is when your working on generator and a survivor shows up wanting to get some healing. Its stealth perk to get opening hits after people heal when working on a generator. Getting hit just after getting healed? Unfun!
Furtive Chase: This is an obsession perk that is suppose reward the killer for spreading hooks by targeting the obsession. The killer getting rewarded for hooking by becoming a stealth killer over the course of a match, Hit & Run gameplay? unfun!
Hysteria: Its stealth perk that is suppose to used for detaching chases and hit & run gameplay on non-stealth killer powers. Once again, Mirroring Trail of torment with pre-hold W problem, Its unfun for survivor.
Dragon's Grip: A lot of killer lack mobility in their kit to catch up the survivor after hitting them due to large sprint burst that survivor gets after hitting a survivor. Some killer just really wish they had better lethality in their kit. Med-kit & COH destroy these type of killers if the survivor is good at looping and uses their health-states properly to extend chases. You know what solve this issue? exposed perks! You know what's unfun for surivvor? Not being able to crutch on health-states. Exposed? Definitely unfun!
Hubris: Same thing as dragon grip. Its suppose to be for killer that can "play" pallets, too bad a lot of strong pallets in the game really safe and waste a ton of time from the killer if used by a good looper. Exposed perk, Obviously unfun.
Hangmans Trick: I mean this perk used to be 12 meter in PTB and people call this perk OP. I think its same OG BBQ when people complained that BBQ removed stealth from the game. I am honestly surprised nowhere to hide is as strong as it is considering Hangman trick getting nuked to the ground.
I am not going continue talking about all your perks changes but I think large reason why a lot of perk suck is because survivor label them as unfun so all perks are under-tuned to accommodate the survivor's fun factor. With so many unfun killer perks(According to survivor mains), the result is stale killer meta because only thing that killer can run that actually does anything is meta gen-regression and gen-slow perks.
Using different perk loadout for killer makes killer a lot more enjoyable to play however the killer fun in dbd is not prioritized. I think its probably last thing that matters. The dev only change killer stuff is in really really bad spot. Survivor is generally more priortized to due to the 4vs1 nature of the game. Its just how it is. This isn't to say that there aren't bad survivor perks but i think you can generally play survivor with a lot more variety then killer. At least in my experience, I see a lot more variety in survivor perk loadouts while I almost see zero variety on killer due to how atrocious bad most of killer perks are.
If you ever wonder why a lot of killer perk suck. its because they are unfun! Like Eruption(According to survivor mains).
2 -
"Awakened Awareness: Return the few seconds of aura reading extension after carrying a survivor.
This was originally removed because of Nurse. However, we shouldn't be building/nerfing an entire game around 1 single killer, that isn't good design. Nurse needs changes separately."
It wasn't just the nurse, Pyramid Head was able to exploit this extremely well too.
Same with spirit.
0 -
Elaborate why you think it's an issue on PH and Spirit?
1 -
I basically agree with everything you've said.
Anything that puts the killers skill as the determining factor is deemed unfun, so everything is left in a weakened state to where it doesn't have much impact. This is turn leaves everyone just defaulting to gen slow down as the most valuable.
Unfortunately this vocal majority of survivors that think this is what creates the stale meta that they complain about in the first place. They create their own problems in other words. We could reference this to camping/tunneling as well btw with wanting survivors in such a powerful position they force the exact game play from killers that they complain about. It's a self fulfilling prophecy basically.
There's way more variety in survivor perks since while there are many bad ones, there's actually quite a variety of decent ones. Also, the main component being that they don't generally need perks to win. Killers are significantly more reliant on perks than survivors are which gives survivors a lot more wiggle room for "fun" perks.
2 -
Many of these are good ideas and many of them are the worst kind of power creep. Removing the cooldown entirely from I'm all ears, for example. It could be halved, but getting rid of it altogether is a bit much. Same with ruin, lullaby and third seal. Unpopular opinion, but I very much prefer the gen kick perks to old ruin. At least it requires input from the killer.
Also I posted that same BBQ idea shortly after the patch gutting it dropped and it's bumming me out to see people reacting positively to it here. 😔
0 -
Anything that puts the killers skill as the determining factor is deemed unfun, so everything is left in a weakened state to where it doesn't have much impact. This is turn leaves everyone just defaulting to gen slow down as the most valuable.
Gen defence is only thing that has not been nerfed. Not completely anyway. Not yet. Your statement is good summary.
Killers are significantly more reliant on perks than survivors are which gives survivors a lot more wiggle room for "fun" perks.
Correct. That is because lots of what is strong for survivor is in the base-kit gameplay. Looping is not a perk. Gen speed is not a perk. Grouping healing is not a perk. Healing and gen coordination is teamwork. Looping is loop oriented and map related. You don't need perks to accomplish these actions. The survivor perks merely improve 1 area of the survivor's gameplay based off survivor's' preference. Often what perks you value as survivor are perks that mitigate your weaknesses as a player.
for killer, the perks and killer power are directly correlated to the killer's power-level. Once you have strong perks and strong killer power, then there's skill component is the killer player in being able to use these perks to the greatest advantage. Since most perks have little impact, there's not much for the killer to do in term of expressing skill with said perks and that goes the same for most killer powers. Most of killer power are unfun for survivor so same logic is applied to killer powers as it is with perks.
4 -
Well for I'm All Ears for example, even at 20 seconds would most people consider that over another slow down perk? I'd say no, bar a few very specific killers.
How would those 3 hex perks be overtuned with those changes? We want hex perks to be in the meta as it gives survivors extra objectives in the game. Even with those changes, bar Ruin, I still don't even think they'd be ran even with those buffs, much less overtuned.
"Unpopular opinion, but I very much prefer the gen kick perks to old ruin. At least it requires input from the killer."
What do you mean? Ruin requires significant input from the killer. It quite literally does absolutely nothing unless you are skilled at pressuring multiple survivors off gens. That's the like epitome of good design and requiring skill.
2 -
Opinions:
- Nurse's is fine for the most part, but a small number up wouldn't be the end;
- Awakened- i assume that will be done eventually
- Beast of Prey- Meh
- BBQ- Yes pls, bring back BBQ tokens
- Blood Echo - Make the duration match the cooldown, being able to constantly apply it with no cooldown would be absurd
- Blood Warden - That is very complicated to understand, and the survivors have very few ways to counterplay it. The perk is fine, if a perk ever comes out that promotes opening the gates instead of 99 them, the perk would increase in popularity
- Bloodhound: What do you mean? Seeing blood through walls, with certain killers that attack through walls thats basically infinite wall hacks in loops. Nurse, PH, Artist, Spirit. Many killers would be broken with an ability like that
- Brutal Strength: I see tons of high level killers using it, its a good perk. Also doubling the numbers?
- Claustrophobia: Could work
- Coulrophobia: This perk is not used because its niche, with that effect on some builds i some maps the effect is just permanent. Also new players would hate healing slow and not being able to do skill checks.
- Coup de grace: Sure
- Dark devotion: Yeah the duration should be higher, its an obsession perk
- Deathbound: Yeah, dumb restriction
- Deerstalker: Slugging? Better not touch, could be dangerous
- Dissolution: That won't do much besides maybe Plague. Good survivors wouldn't break their own pallets for you when they know you are in a 3 sec cooldown
- Dragon's grip: With a cooldown that short you would have the perk up all the time, way too strong for 3 gen situations. The current meta
- Dying Light: Sure, i guess
- Fearmonger: 15 seconds is way too much for a passive perk
- Enduring: Again, the perk is good, no changes needed
- Forced Penance: Its more of a tournament or against SWF perk. It does it job well
- Furtive chase: If you do that, then the perk can't stack with monitor.
- Gearhead: Hmmm, you made the perk less interesting
- Grim Embrace: Hahaha, imagine that with Deadlock, survivors would always have their gens blocked. Thats so broken in so many ways.
- Fire Up: You are doubling the numbers
- crowd Control: That is way too strong
- Face the Darkness: Combo of Hexes + Thrill, Congrats, hexes are now uncleansable with all the screaming interrupting actions
- Huntress Lullaby: 20% loss of progress per skill check? Yikes, people will just DC against doctor, and no build up required
- Retribution: Actually really like this one, but with the aure revealed and consistency i am not sure you would need to buff the oblivious effect
- Third Seal: Hmmm, Slugging. Too strong against Solo, SWF wouldn't care about any of those effects.
- Thrill: Again cool, but i already said a big problem before
- Hoarder: Are you a pinhead player? So everyone that picks the box is now oblivious and injured? No, just no
- Hubris: Why should the survivor be punished for playing good? Also congrats, survivors will pre drop every pallet and Shift W, with perks like those, thats what is going to happen. And again, 40 sec for the killer ######### up
- Hysteria: Ok, those cooldowns are in place for a reason, to stop them from being permanent. Every other change like that is the response
- I am all ears: Broken with many Killers, needs a cooldown. Its already used by many PH and nurses, like that it would be busted.
- Iron Maiden: The perk is only used for reloading fast.
- Lethal: The devs put that restrition and talked about it. And the perk is good, why are you buffing it?
- Lightborn: Meh
- Madgrit: Thats Starstruck
- Overwhelming: Needs a requirement to activate, or nerf the perk. You can't just make it map wide without more changes
- Remember Me: Hmm, not sure
- Gift of Pain: So instead of the giving a penalty for healing you are incentive survivors to heal? Don't understand
- Septic Touch: Meh, i would prefer removig the TR requirement, let stealth killers use it, instead of buffing the numbers
- Shattered Hope: I Like it, but if you can create pentimento tokens with this, big no
- Spies: That is just permanent aura reading, map wide. Yikes that is so busted. Nurse players rejoice
- Surveillance: Thats cool and all but COB does that and regresses, so maybe bhvr should decide which one should do what
- Terminus: Decide, its permanent or not? Also whats the point of that buff? Securing a kill? I don't see much more reason for a survivor to wait 30 sec with the exit gates open
- Territorial: Cool, i like it
- Thanato: F...ing no
- Ruin: It would need an added downside to not be like old ruin (I suggest a cap in the regression the perk can make)
- Thrilling: The perk is good, its a location perk. And a really good one
- Trail: Maybe
- Unnnerving: What i said about the doctor, blah, blah, blah
- Unrelenting: Why?
0 -
Most of these you found as too much of a buff, I'd be curious how you would buff them then instead to make them competitive?
They are competing against gen regression perks. For most of these if you toned down the buff they still aren't competitive with the meta and we're still just going to see nothing but regression perks.
We're so afraid to give good buffs to other perks that we are never going to leave the slow down meta.
2 -
Perks have been updated. Will make further changes if anyone sees any glaring issues.
Keep in mind that these other perks have to be tuned high enough to be considered comparable in value to any of the slow down or regression perks we have. Perks that give their value when the killer plays in a more "fair/fun" (not camping/tunneling) way I tried to tune quite strong as we want some of the best perks for killers to be ones that encourage them to play in a more "fair" way. They need incentive not to camp by having perks that make it the smartest choice not to, or at least as close to that as we can get. We want more killers to not feel forced to camp if they don't want to.
1 -
BlueHorkew is describing what I was referencing in regards unfun. you can see his listing of unfun killers and unfun perks. He is naming potential smart perk combinations or killer power synergies that killer could be worth using over gen defence. His post proves my point perfectly.
We're so afraid to give good buffs to other perks that we are never going to leave the slow down meta.
Ideally survivor would prefer killer run gen defence perks and lose. If generator defence perk is making them lose. that should be removed and weakened. Its same for tunneling and camping. The ideal is that killer camps and tunnels but loses while doing so. You know, play for survivor's fun.
1 -
Perks have been updated to reflect some changes suggested.
0 -
Yes! Buff scourge hook: gift of pain
It should be reapplied if they are foolish enough to end up, yet again on a specifically white hook with black smoke.
I agree with OP on a lot.
The buff to lightborn would make it so much fun vs the obvious lobbies that bring 3 flashies haha
1 -
I already said a lot of this changes are way too powerfull.
Quick example, spirit with this hubris. You are giving spirit the ability to one shot every survivor by her walking up to a pallet just so they can stun her. Because lets be real, any good spirit will catch a survivor within 40 seconds. Its way too much, besides being a perk that punishes a survivor for going for stuns instead of just pre dropping.
0 -
This is just completely and utterly unrealistic. As soon as they see you have this the rest the entire match is pre drops. This is literally the exact same scenario as spirit fury. Even with this buff I personally wouldn’t ever run it still for that exact reason.
0 -
I just don't like perks that force survivors to play on a more lame way of pre dropping instead of going for more risky plays and go for stuns. Just seems really backwards design to me.
But this is my issue with the perk itself.
Also, i don't know if you know, but right now destroying zombies with pallets also activate Hubris for some reason. Free tip for Nemesis players if they want.
0 -
That’s at least a more fair argument. It encourages less fun interactions. I could see that. However that’s more just the perks bad core design than my change itself.
The nemesis thing is pretty irrelevant as no one really wastes pallets to kill zombies anyway. Interesting fact though.
0 -
I have been using Any means necessary after the buff.
For some reason found a lot of Nemesis Players during that time.
It was fun for me xD
1 -
That’s actually hilarious lol. Poor Nemi.
1 -
i agree with furtive i used to run it then understood what it really does
1 -
You forgot to add "let BHVR play the killer for you too"
0 -
What do you mean?
0 -
Regarding the Huntress perks in particular I'd started my own thread on them and came up with the following:
Scourge Hook: Territorial Imperative
* The Aura of a Survivor entering the Basement or moving within 2/4/6 meters of any Scourge Hook when you are at least 32 meters away is revealed to you for 3 seconds.
* Hooking 2 different Survivors on a Scourge Hook gains 1 token
** At any normal hook, consume 1 token to convert it into a Scourge Hook, deactivating an already active Scourge Hook elsewhere in the Trial, chosen at random.
Basically adds a touch of Hangman's Trick while offering a way to deal with one of Scourge Hooks' biggest weaknesses, RNG of placement.
Hex: Huntress Lullaby
Start with 5 Tokens, 1 for each Totem remaining in the environment. While Hex: Huntress Lullaby is active the time between the warning sound and any healing and repair skill checks is shortened, depending on the number of tokens.
** 5 Tokens: disables the Warning sound.
** 4 Tokens: shortens the time between the Warning sound and the Skill check by -56 %.
** 3 Tokens: shortens the time between the Warning sound and the Skill check by -42 %.
** 2 Tokens: shortens the time between the Warning sound and the Skill check by -28 %.
** 1 Token: shortens the time between the Warning sound and the Skill check by -14 %.
Survivors receive a 2/4/6% Regression penalty on Failed Skill Checks for Repair and Healing actions.
The Hex effects persist until its Hex Totem is cleansed.
Basically flip the token system and give us Thrill of the Hunt rules so it doesn't fall into the "too hard for beginners to cope with" issue that got OG Ruin reworked
One for Beast of Prey suggested in the thread, but credit belongs to @FFirebrandd
After being in chase for 20s, Beast of Prey activates.
Beast of Prey grants undetectable until a survivor is damaged by any means.
Beast of Prey has a cool down of 50/40/30 seconds.
1 -
I thought the scourge one seemed too weak before I even got to the part of it deactivating another scourge hook when it creates one, which made it even worse. Seems ways too weak, I couldn’t ever see running that.
Lullaby also seems too weak. I get we don’t want it to be too strong against bad players but that seems useless against most everyone else that’s decent. I feel like any skill check perk is doomed to be too good against bad players or too bad against good players. Skill checks are so easy that you’d have to make them ridiculously hard to have any value against good players. Good example of this is merciless storm. It’s made to not be too hard for bad players which is why it’s useless against anyone even decent.
That beast of prey idea seems okay I guess for helping new players that are bad at chasing but overall useless to everyone else. It’s there to help people that are playing bad.
Overall none of these are good enough that I could see any time I would want to run them.
0
