CoH
I know I'm beating a dead horse with this one but I truly think that you as killer should just be able to destroy the boon /totem completely as basekit(even if it takes a bit longer than normal)
I don't think survivors should be able to have more than 1 boon up at a time even if more than 1 survivor has the perk.
Are boons too much ? No not usually however an extremely skilled team on fractured cowshed that wastes no time puttin them up, and holding W back to them one at a time can destroy you.
Comments
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I'm all for nerfing circle of healing so that's it's more balenced but your going to have to buff the other boons. Non of the other boons are good enough to take on their own.
Also can we please have a suggestion that doesn't outright make circle of healing completely useless?
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I disagree. That would screw over Killer perks that rely on Dulls to exist. Also making the survivors spend the time to go Boon the totem over and over again is time they're spending not working on generators. Make use of that.
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I've been saying this since it came out. The Killers should "destroy" boons.. Not snuff them.. The developers have extreme Survivor bias though, so I don't see them ever making that smart of a move. Everything is a perk.. Perk here, perk there.. Anything that could be an ACTUAL GOOD IDEA to have in the base game, just make it a perk.. Any mechanic that might be fun to introduce in the base game, just make it a perk...
The developers for this game are way too scared to change anything fundamental. Pretty sad tbh. Scared of your own fan bases reaction. What a life to live. xD
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I think CoH should be just fast group heals, not fast self heals as well. I can literally self heal with CoH faster than it takes most killers to get a hit in the first place. That's bad design. It single handedly kills the hit and run play style, which is generally ran on the weaker killers to begin with. CoH encourages more tunneling.
On the topic of breaking totems on snuff I agree as well. They should be a limited resource. They have multiple totems but eventually they'll run out if you keep snuffing them. That said, if we did this we would need to give buffs to the other boons as well.
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Buff every boon to be equal to Circle and let killers break them. That's what I'd like to see.
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no, the killer takes longer to extinguish the totem than you place it, the animation takes 2 seconds + the time to move in and out
if the killer spends 4 seconds then the survivors have already won themselves free time, so whatever you do coh absolutely always wins
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Sorry little confused here I thought bless takes like 14 seconds ?
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What people fail to understand is that exponential has more niche scenarios but can actually carry games harder. People say every boon other than CoH is bad but expo is probably an A tier perk.
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What makes coh different is the fact that it works best when placed far away from the killer while the other boons work better if placed relatively close to the killer.
My idea for a coh rework would be that it acts like a reverse haunted ground :
When coh gets snuffed or destroyed by the killer then all survivors within that boons range heal by 1 health state (injured - > healthy, downed - > injured, big wound - > injured)
This would bring coh close to the other boons in term of functionality I think. Additionally I would add 12m range to any boon
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I feel like that would create a lose lose scenario if circle of healing was paired with other boons. And it would be a bit of a time waster to boon the totem of the totem if it's not going to do anything
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And there are four survivors. Who aren't being pressured if the Killer's busy dealing with a boon.
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Ok it pulls you off the gen pressure, killer has a lot of stuff to pull survivors off gens? Legion for example makes me jump off gen to mend. So why shouldnt killers have to be pulled off their job
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Because that's not the Killer's role? I think you're misunderstanding the point of an asymmetric game, here. The Killer is not the one that's supposed to be given other things to do, because they have to contend with containing the actions of four other players to try and win. Those four players are driven off their main objective, because that's one way the Killer has to try and do that.
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boons themselves as a mechanic are fine only COH needs to be looked at.
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That I can agree with 100%.
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Instead of destroying the totem, what I would try is to rework it so CoH have a limit of use charges but the moment it run out of them or the killer snuff it it's gone for the rest of the game.
To avoid having more than one boon in the game, it could also be changed to work like an Hex and be randomly placed at the start of the game. If more than one survivor have CoH, the charges of both stacks in the same totem (e.g. 2 charges per perk, so 2 survivors with CoH = 4 healings). That way it's still useful, bringing more than one is still viable, but now can't be used at infinitum even when the killer have snuff it a hundred times already.
Or just make it so survivor can only bless one totem and when is snuffed the perk is gone like what happens with Hex perks, that would work too.
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Killers can already hear them from 10 miles away. Boons get snuffed almost instantly all the time in my games and you wanna make them a one time thing? Plus every game has Franklins demise so our medkits become useless too. So you guys basicly want healing to be completely reliant on teammates but no one has time to run across the map looking for teammates with the pain res, eruption,dead man's builds everyone's so stuck on rn.
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Hey its better than not having anything at all lol
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Seriously like people forget boons do not equal hexes lol
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Killer can hear them because unlike survivors they don't have any other way to locate a totem that is not an Hex, no killer perk gives totem aura reading like the map for example, survivors can choose where to place their boon so they can choose the most hidden and far apart totem to bless, and of course snuffing the totem don't deactivate the survivor perk, allowing him to basically just relit it over and over again until he is out of the game.
Also, the hell have boons or healing to do with any perk you said there? In fact except for Eruption if you are hit, the other perks not only not do anything to prevent you for healing someone, DMS literally block the gen for 30 seconds so good time to go and do something else like healing.
But they should be. Why survivors get to have infinite amount of self healing for basically free while killers can have their perk slot completely nullified 30 seconds into the match because RNGesus decided to put my Hex in the most visible and unhidden totem the map generator can came up with?
Anyway, people are talking about how CoH need to be nerfed, not comparing CoH or boons with Hex perks.
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I'm surprised only one other person has really pointed this out, but, this completely runs parallel to what boons are meant to do, as a mechanic. The other boons are only of use if the killer is also nearby, because that way the killer always knows where the boon is and can make the decision to snuff whenever an opportunity arises; there's risk in that the time you take to set it up may not be made up for, because using the boon means the killer's going to be nearby. It's why the boon mechanic is pretty balanced overall, and why CoH is it's own problem.
You can't fix CoH by nerfing boons, because it already doesn't follow the same rules. If boons broke on snuff, the result would be that the other three are so laughably, hilariously bad that nobody would ever use them... and CoH would still be a problem because it works best when it's in a position that's too inconvenient to go snuff to begin with. You'd have achieved the opposite of what you want here.
Even if that would fix it... not that boons and hexes are directly comparable, but the problem with old Undying wasn't fixed by nerfing how many totems spawn or making hexes easier to find/snuff. It was fixed by changing the actual perk itself. CoH needs to be dealt with, not the boon mechanic.
(As an aside, I don't think CoH is overpowered anymore, but I do think it should be fully reworked because of how it harms the other boons in the way I've described above, so. Same outcome desired, different reasoning.)
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Ah, the CoH discussion starts up again. Popcorn is delicious this time of month.
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CoH already has been changed a couple of times, but I guess it is still a problem. I'll try to go through both sides here.
There seems to be some set in stone aspects to CoH that they are intent on keeping:
Unlocks self-care, stackable
Provides healing bonuses in groups, stackable
Can be reblessed infinity
Takes a perk to destroy
Now what suggestions has anyone to make to changing CoH that still keeps all of that? One of the few I can think of is diminishing returns similar to Built To Last, so each time CoH is snuffed & reblessed it's range & effectiveness are both reduced. Some kind of token system may be another.
I get that keeping those four aspects may feel unacceptable to many I really do. But if they are here to stay, what do y'all have to offer up?
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I laughed way too hard at that. Ty
Must get sleep...
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I'm fine with a token system personally. Having unlimited uses and being able to move it from totem to totem is powerful at the best at insulting at the worst. Killers can't replace Hex totems, they are in fact destroyed. I would prefer shattered hope to just be base kit for killers and rework the perk into something else as well.
But when it comes down to it, CoH is really the problem. At the least it should be nerfed so the self heal's are at self-care levels of healing, and the buff to healing others should be lowered as well.
Over all though I would think a token system is the most likely. I would have it as 1 token per Boon totem token you take, that way it balances out if you decide to bring more boon totem perks to the match, and less if you don't invest as heavily.
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Exactly... Couple of problems I do see with Boon, mostly steam from COH alone and not others boons.
Problems with CoH:
*You don't need to be anywhere near the killer in order to get value, in fact it is much more effective if it not easily found outside of the Killer's patrol route.
*it's is a perk that can be strong on solo player when it comes to self healing but more insane strong if you're teammates can used it, and doesn't force any to get off gens to go heal others.
I am down with reworking/nerfing CoH; into a team oriented fast healing boon perk, while removing the ability to Self-Care entirely. As CoH will only be just as effective when you have alive teammates that need to get off gens and demand assistance for heals, and it gets weaker as teammates die.
Also I am against nerfing Boons, in which Killer's can destory boon with a snuff; as survivors simply cannot defend theirs Boons while killer can defend their hex, if they wanted too.. it not like survivors are going to bodyblocking the boon location and let the killer get a free down just so they snuff it. But, if you want nerf boons in a good way, without nerfing any boon perks indirectly. I would propose making Cleaning a hex totem with blessings be impossible and instead simple Disabled the Hex perk until the Killer snuff it and brings it back. This would forced survivors to make decisions on whatever or not is it worth blessings the hex and the killer could take back their hex perk if found; or simply just cleasn the hex perk for good and lose a potionial good boon totem location.
I am defending most boon perk, as most of them are pretty balanced and requires bit risk in order to get value. CoH however has no risk to little risk, don't need to be as close to the killer to used it effective.
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Another value point: CoH is problematic as it needs to be hidden and as far away as possible in order to maximize the value of fast, infinite heals for a Survivor and their team. If Basekit shattered Hope is added, it will changes nothing but making other boon worthless and CoH will still be the strongest choice as again, it is much better when it is far away from the killer patrol and hidden in a obscure spot.
Almost every boon perk, except for CoH; needs to be close to the killer to get value; and will always be at risk of being within ear shot of the killer and snuff in advance. Basekit Shattered Hope would make all those boon useless.
CoH needs massive nerf/rework so that; it works best when near the killer; or at least make it so that it forced Survivor to group up to get maximum value. Right now, CoH is a fantastic solo healing Perk and swf healing Perk as well; as the ability to Self-Care with no penalties and increase healing speed that can be stack with medkits makes this perk a nightmare for any hit and run play styles for killers and encourage them to.... you guess it, tunnel and camp more often! I absolutely Remove CoH ability to Self-Care entirely and forced survivors to group up to get some value. That way, CoH will become worthless when you less alive survivors ti even be the last one standing
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I actually disagree about the part of how killers can defend their hexes but survivors can’t defend their boon. This is because the survivors WANT the killer to snuff the boons as it’s a net loss on time for them to do so. Plus even if we did implement the changes I was talking about they’d still have multiple other totems to use. Also while the killer “can” protect their hex they generally aren’t because that’s throwing the game anyway since survivors are getting free reign on gens. So while your point at face value “seems” valid, in reality it doesn’t play out that way.
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I know that, killers defending a hex totem is not 100% valid strategy unless it is part of the hex build plan like Devour Hope play maybe if they have over 3 tokens for example. But.... it still builds my case that the fact that Survivor are abusing CoH very effective tactic which it pressure killers to go out of their way to leave patrolling the gens and make them waste time cleansing a boon that can be quite detrimental to their ability to down and hit survivors effectively, all while giving the survivors the ability to get back on gens and used that time frame to get a decent amount of progress on gens.
Either way, I still stand by you that CoH needs to be a fast healing team perk, never solo heal. And that maybe we need to add charges or limitations on how much CoH can heal person or Two. It should not give free fast insane heals, to everyone especially solo players that don't need help and brought a medkit.
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I presume most people that cry nerf COH don't play the perk. The perk takes way too long to get value out of. Finding totem takes ages. Using known totem position makes no sense, as killer will snuff it.
Sure when it's up and killer doesn't know it, the perk is great. However whenever you need to heal, the perk is just not available.
Also. I will trade any time all boon perks for this regression meta. The game is absolutely obnoxious. CoH does not do enough to offload it by far. If killer decides to just not leave the person, you get 0 value out of ANY heal perks. If killer tunnels, you get 0 value. If killer takes shattered hope, you get almost 0 value, but quite some negative value. If you are on farm map and totems spawn in corn - you get almost 0 value. If anyone takes totem-destroy perk (inner healing/overzealous) you get almost 0 value. If you spawn on map like lerys, you will not find totem in minutes so again very little value (and yet killers hear it from distance so it does not matter to them). The perk is high risk good reward (not even high reward because of 2 nerfs already). On the other hand perks like DS are now "fine", because killers don't need to even think about it - most of the times it prolongs the chase by 5s (especially against nurse). But sure "CoH is problem". But 60% kill rate and eruption/CoB/OC is "fine"
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Sometimes tell me, you never play killer enough in high level and understand the huge value this one boon perk brings. It is in the meta, when it comes to huge percentage usages and it is almost common in every game that one or two Survivors are bringing it. You rarely seen anyone use any other healing perks, unless they have a medkit or perk build involved. It's really not that hard to play the game regularly and know where typically totem spawns are, same for gens; but if you are that clueless, bringing Detective Hunch or small game can help you find totems with ease and get familiar the worse/best totem spawns. It even much better for survivors then killer, as they have 4v1 and have time to run around, look for totems and choose where to bless or cleansed; especially when the killer is busy in chase with another. Obviously, in some maps especially indoor maps; the totems spawns are not easy to figure out and takes alot of time which is wasted compare to the insane value a boon perk could save back when you need to eliminate healing slowly.
Think back:
It takes you a minute or two, to run around and find totems; when it should take you less then that if you know the totem spawn well. But, when you bless CoH into the game; you are giving yourself and team a very powerful time saver benefit of healing 50% faster in that one area (or more areas if multiple Survivors are bringing CoH). Your argument that is it "high risk, high reward" is laughably, as it literally as no risk when it can stay active in a place the killer will mostly not going to out of their way to go snuff. In fact, the best way to counter CoH is to simple identify the booner survivor and tunnel and kill them as fast as possible. Snuffing totem is almost as pointless what old gen kicking regression used to do, where it didn't take away 2.5% progress before.
Also, stop bringing up the 60% Kill rate; it is irrelevant as it validate my point that killers more likely camp, tunnel survivors more often due to the existence of CoH and medkits and shutting down hit and run play styles. I am aware of the Eruption/gen kicking meta; but you need to also balance out both sides metas also; and CoH is definitely a problem; no matter if you agree or disagree.
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TBH I play more killer then survivor now, because survivors are so nerfed, that I stopped playing solo altogether.
As stated before - sure if boon stands, it provides very good value. The problem is "when it stands". And as stated before - this takes a lot of time and has a lot of conditions. Sure if killer is guarding his 3gen for 20 minutes, then sure he will not have time to go and snuff it. But the problem is that killer can hold his 3gen for 20 minutes. That's something devs should actually fix. You can have very good chase just for killer to realize he was not strong enough so he returns to his 3gen and regresses it again to 0. Survivors not being able to do anything else will use whatever they get - reset too. But in this case regression is the main problem that created this scenario. Not boon. In normal game boon should be usable basically as a better version (again - when it stands) of we will make it.
Also I know all the totem spawns. But it does not matter - killers cry that it takes too much time to get to totem where you know the position. But consider it from other side - on average map there's 20-30 totem spawns out of which only 5 will actually contain the totem. Getting to each spot takes 10s. Half the time you need to run around obstacles to actually find it (another 5-10s) and you need to do this on average 4-6x -> this alone takes 1-1,5 minutes JUST TO FIND TOTEM - if you know the spots. That is unfeasible. So instead you don't ever go looking for totems just for boons. You look for totems during game. Which again means you could potentially have many problems (plaything, inner healing, overzealous, ...). The perk is indeed good. But nowhere near as good as you make it sound. In fact I have won MANY games thanks to survivors being hell-bent on doing boons instead of gens.
Also it's not "high risk, high reward". It's high risk good reward. As I already said. Plague/legion, insta-kill killers, not leaving chase, tunneling of hook, plaything or other totem-destroying perk, etc - there are many situations where the perk will be useless or almost useless. This is the high risk. Not the part that killer can interrupt you or stomp it (that's also risk, but not that high). Now compare it to eruption which has just one risk - survivors could be SWF so sometimes (and not even always) they will know when to dodge it and that's it.
And no I will compare it to eruption and mention 60% all the time. Because all the threads here just want more nerfs to survivors. Because 60% kill rate means killers need more power. That's the idea you get when you read threads in this forum.
EDIT: Fixed typos and clarified sentence
Post edited by Gandor on1 -
I still think one of key stones, such as Self Care and stackable needs to be removed entirely, as it has no penalties like normal Self-Care does. But if it has to be rework.... it can only be one of two key stones, but never both....
If Devs want to make Circle of Healing a strong solo healing perk; they need to make it impossible for survivors to heal others and get bonus healing from teamwork.
If devs wanted to make Circle of Healing a strong Teammates oriented perk, then they need to removed the medkit and Self-Care ability without a medkit and keep the healing bonus.
I don't like that fact, that CoH can be the best at both solo and swf arsenal; when it comes to boosted healing and make gen efficiency and bodyblocking more frequently; as well as incentives killers to camp and tunnel more as hit /run playstyle is no longer good strategy.
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I only see CoH as a problem on maps with amazing totem spots where they can just keep rebooning with it being a huge pain to go out of your way to snuff it.
I'd fix it by just making it so that subsequent boons take longer to place, you would genuinely be doing yourself harm wasting so much time to keep rebooning. I don't think even CoH has a strong enough effect to where it needs to work like a hex and be gone forever, and shattered hope baseline would probably make penti too strong since it'd be a perk that works on its own now.
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CoH can be changed if they changed sloppy butcher and franklin's, because at this point you can't depend only on your teammates to be healed
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you are WELCOME!!!
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Here are my suggestions. CoH should be destroyable. When the killer destroys the totem, the survivor who made the boon gets sacrificed immediately. Survivors who had used the boon go straight to the dying state. Auras of the survivors who haven't used the boon are getting highlighted until the end of the match and becoming moriable even without the offering. Pallets and windows are becoming blocked and all survivors' movement speed reduces to 1 m/s.
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Maybe 1 kick one of the two effects. 50% more heal OR Selfheal.
not both.
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You forgot every killer now starts with a shotgun as well.
Come on fam be serious!
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