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If stealthing in a 2v1 is "holding the game hostage" then please remove hatch
The devs have said repeatedly before that refusing to advance the objective (= work on gens) for an extended period of time is holding the game hostage, even in a 2v1. In the presence of the hatch, this leads to a decision each survivor must make: throw the match, or break TOS.
If the survivor out-stealths the other survivor, they might break TOS if the game goes on long enough. What is their reward? Escaping.
If the survivor decides to try to advance the objective, they will be found and probably killed, likely giving the other survivor the hatch.
This is a lose-lose scenario. There is absolutely zero incentive not to stealth around the map and avoid gens when it could land you an escape, especially if you are working on a challenge/achievement that requires escaping.
Please remove the hatch, or rework it somehow so this choice between good gameplay and not breaking TOS doesn't have to exist.
Comments
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Remove the 10% chance of a survivor will sacrifice themselves to give their teammate hatch. So there will be 100% of the time both survivors will just hide. At least I know I always throw myself off for my teammate to get hatch.
Killers give up when they know they cant get a kill and stand in a corner. Survivors give up when 2 died with 2-3 Gens remaining. Can I ask what's the chance of my teammate that can run for the last 3 Gens? Because I know I cant run for 3 Gens.
If I do Gen just to die and my teammate get hatch, why I just not throwing myself off anyway? There is no point to do Gen at that point.
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"But survivor need a chance to escape at any point in game. Otherwise they DC, afk or troll." /S (Please imagine this in a whiney voice in your head)
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Indeed, I'm fine with any of those outcomes TBH. 😝
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There is no point to do Gen at that point.
I agree, which is why the current policy on holding the game hostage is stupid. Reworking hatch is also an option, for example: the hatch opens when there are two survivors left, and after one survivor escapes through it the other survivor is immediately mori'd.
I'm sure there are other viable ideas. The current hatch mechanic is simply not workable when the rules say you can't do your darndest to elude the killer in a 2v1 to get it.
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Well just give detectable afk an automated disconnect with leaver penalty and all 3 have consequences.
DC penalty, DC penalty, reportable. (Of course for that to work, reports would need to lead to anything.)
Problem solved.
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Its not a good idea. There are case like the last Gen is 95%, Im doing Gen, you chase the last one. They jump into hatch and then I instantly die?
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Like I said:
I'm sure there are other viable ideas.
But it won't matter anyway, because the devs have no monetary incentive to change this, and the forum mods move threads like this into the idea graveyard that nobody reads.
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I have another idea:
If only 2 Survivors are left and they don't touch gens for... 60s for at least 10s, they scream and reveal their position.
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Remove slugging for the 4k and this problem goes away entirely.
I'm generally a fan of the idea of hatch, because the game only functions if survivors have hope. Survivors without a hope of escape leads to an excessive amount of disconnecting and giving up.
But as a thought experiment, let's take your suggestion at face value and delete hatch. Slugging for the 4k goes away entirely, so that's a bonus.
Instead of 'the last 2 survivors hiding', now it's only the last 1, and now the killer has no means to trigger the EGC. So you're in the exact same scenario, but with half as many survivors you could possibly find, and literally no way to progress the game yourself by closing hatch.
But since nearly every 3k becomes a guaranteed 4k, you've driven up kill rates across the board. So I guess killers get to be blanket nerfed too.
I'm not sure that deleting hatch will really get you what you want.
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Along with what a lot of responders here have said, keep in mind as well that in a situation where there are two Survivors left, it is frequently incorrect to assume that we are just hiding, trolling and trying to get the hatch. More often than not, we are playing an extended game of 'cat and mouse' with you, and trying to get you to make a mistake or otherwise create an opportunity to get a gen finished and perhaps escape the match together. In my case, the other Survivor and I are usually in cahoots to some degree, using the couple of emotes that we have available to try and work out a plan.
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The last 2 survivors just hiding and refusing to touch anything is extremely common. I think if no objective has been worked on after a set amount of time said survivor should get crows.
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For it not to benefit killers who play like [any negative term], it would have to:
From where one of the two survivors loses at least 1 health segment, the other is no longer affected by the statut.
This status becomes active again if the injured survivor subsequently regains the lost health segment(s).
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I think it needs to be done so that for each killed survivor a 25% bonus was applied to repair the generator, this will motivate the survivors to repair the generators even when there are 2-3 of you left and there will be no such situations when two survivors stand and wait for someone to die.
You can make the hatch appear when there are 2 survivors left, but only one of the survivors can escape into the hatch, this at least somehow rehabilitates the dead garbage in the form of a key. Well, the second survivor can only escape through the gate, but can he)))
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Yeah I forgot that scenario. My idea was only supposed to take effect when both are on their feet.
But thanks for the reminder.
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"Yeah I forgot that scenario."
This is what is complicated: at what point a solution can lead to excesses, at what point a solution is no longer viable because it would lead to too many abuses, etc. 😫
So many good ideas that are handicapped by players who are barely more advanced than a stone...😆
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I have 1200 hours in this game and have never once experienced this scenario. I'm don't see how this can be 'extremely common' to face, outside of hyperbole.
The only way I can possibly imagine people are seeing this more often than extremely *rarely* comes down to how good you are at hunting survivors as a killer.
In my mind, it's literally a skill issue, and if it's really so common that you see it 'all the time' then whispers should be a permanent part of every loadout for you. Because this also means that you're stomping games 'extremely commonly' and probably don't need all 4 of your current perks to get to the '2 survivors left at 2+ gens' stage of the game. Let's be honest, it's probably 4 slowdowns and no information perks, isn't it?
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If you've never seen it, then it doesn't exist right? Clearly a "skill issue" in comprehending other peoples experiences.
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Didn't say it doesn't exist. But there's only a handful of realistic reasons that I wouldn't be seeing it when other people are claiming it's everywhere.
Maybe 'excessive hiding' is only at the lowest levels of MMR. I'm color blind, so maybe I pick up on survivors trying to blend into their environment differently than other people do. Maybe I'm patrolling differently since hidey survivors often scatter at the first sign of a killer. Maybe it's because I'm running lethal and darkness revealed and other people are running with zero information.
I also never said I haven't had people *try* to hide from me. But whether it's general game sense, or terror radius mind games, or whatever the reason I have so far always been able to find one of them.
Honestly, the main reason is likely because I run 1-2 information perks in most of my builds and always have a general idea of where the survivors are most of the game.
But if you're seeing this 'a lot', you will never get to pick your survivors or how they play. The only thing you have any control over is your own build and gameplay.
Edit: phrasing.
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It is extremely common, like multiple times a day. You also seem to jump to a whole lot of conclusions. Lastly no, it is not 4 slow down perks. Wasting people’s time by hiding around the map no where near gens and rotating lockers around the map is a killer skill issue? What? If you don’t see this happening you might be playing killler at low mmr where people don’t care about sweating it out for the hatch or know how to properly hide when they have no intent of touching objectives and want to stall out the game.
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Not sure what to tell you.
Locating survivors is a key part of the killer role, which is why there are over a dozen different killer perks designed to find people. This includes things like iron maiden, whispers, and spies from the shadows, which are always active and don't even rely on auras or trigger conditions like hooks.
You're saying you have room in your build and are completely destroying lobbies most of the time. In that case, I'm sure you can continue to annihilate teams with these perks and not break a sweat.
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"Locating survivors is a key part of the killer role, which is why there are over a dozen different killer perks designed to find people. This includes things like iron maiden, whispers, and spies from the shadows, which are always active and don't even rely on auras or trigger conditions like hooks."
Of which is built around the assumption that they will be attempting the games objectives and progressing it further. Yes, it is extremely easy to find survivors in this context. This is also not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about ignoring objectives on outskirts of the maps and rotating lockers. There is no killer experience or intuition for that.
"You're saying you have room in your build and are completely destroying lobbies most of the time. In that case, I'm sure you can continue to annihilate teams with these perks and not break a sweat."
You're missing the entire point. So because survivors have the ability to take a game hostage (bad design), I should have to waste a perk slot to prevent griefing?
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I'm talking about hiding at the edge of the map. That's exactly what perks like whispers and spies are for. Locker hopping is why I recommended iron maiden. I think you could really benefit from reading what these perks do.
Never said it wasn't 'reportable', 'unsportsmanlike', 'bm', or ######### behavior. It's all those things. Neither you nor I can change those survivors behavior. Period. But you can play differently to try to counteract it if it's impacting your game 'regularly'. That's the only thing you have any control over.
If you have an 'extreme problem' with people hopping in lockers and blindly refuse to consider perks that might be useful in that situation, then I wish you the best of luck.
Edit: autocorrect.
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"I'm talking about hiding at the edge of the map. That's exactly what perks like whispers and spies are for. Locker hopping is why I recommended iron maiden. I think you could really benefit from reading what these perks do."
I've got almost 9k hours in the game mate, I know what they do. You're still missing the point.
People shouldn't be forced to run perks to fix bad game design. That's what we're here trying to fix.
By your rational we shouldn't ever try to adress camping or tunneling because those survivors can just run anti-tunnel/camp perks if it's so much of an issue for them. I don't agree with this and most the community wouldn't either. The game needs to work towards finding a solution for those problems at base, not requiring perks to fix them.
"Never said it wasn't 'reportable', 'unsportsmanlike', 'bm', or ######### behavior. It's all those things. Neither you nor I can change those survivors behavior. Period. But you can play differently to try to counteract it if it's impacting your game 'regularly'. That's the only thing you have any control over."
But it's not the only thing you have control over. You admit it's even reportable. We have control over trying to make changes to the game and get devs to see issues that need fixing.
"If you have an 'extreme problem' with people hopping in lockers and blindly refuse to consider perks that might be useful in that situation, then I wish you the best of luck."
Still missing the point. The point is not that there isn't a solution to what I'm talking about. The point is that we should be pushing to fix these issues in the base game.
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@AmpersandUnderscore Stop making excuses for survivors literally breaking the rules to the point they could literally potentially get banned. People should not be obligated to be forced to use certain perks/add-ons/killers/etc just in case the other side decides to literally break the rules to take the game hostage. Ever.
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I also like the idea of the hatch.
My point is that the current hatch mechanic is utterly incompatible with the policy that survivors are not allowed to stealth when it's a 2v1. I don't care which thing changes but one of them has to, or the policy is requiring that a TOS-following survivor throw the game to give the TOS-breaking player hatch, which seems like an utterly ridiculous state of affairs.
If they are hell-bent on considering stealthing to be a TOS violation, they need to rework hatch somehow.
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I agree with you and I'm amazed by killer whiners who want easy wins without even thinking about taking certain perks for it
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I actually don't mind that idea, hatch spawns when 2 are alive but immediately closes when someone enters it and EGC starts
However this may create more stress for the killer if he chooses to close the hatch so thats a downside as well
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I'd be fine with anti camping and tunneling perks if they actually worked well
As it stands, a camping killer can just hit the unhooked to immediately get rid of OTR and DS does absolutely nothing anymore (2 seconds? Really?)
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It’s actually 3 seconds not 2, but yeah I’d buff it back to 5 seconds myself. OTR is actually extremely good though. If someone is getting tunneled off the hook with OTR and they’re a good player that tunnel is costing them nearly an entire extra gen. OTR is a good perk in general is the point though, those other perks you mentioned for countering survivors holding the game hostage are bad perks in general. By this I mean it’s not a negative for you as survivor to run those, but it is a negative as a killer to run those.
Both are issues that need fixes at base though and shouldn’t require perks.
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it's 2s. First second you are locked in animation making it "useless time". For all intends and purposes you can consider DS to be 2s instead of 3 (with maybe exception of your team progressing the gen 1s longer). If survivor did not get any drop animation after DS was used OR if he could actually move during the animation, then we could talk about 3s effect.
As it stands, DS is almost a joke. It's all about if you have 2 other perks that make it kind-of usable to some limit (where DS's role is not the stun any more, but reset to bleeding status), or if you somehow fell down next to pallet (well power struggle would do the same job) or window, but it's at most 1-time use now.
DS nerf is another reason why I think devs don't really take into account survivor's expecience at all. The one reason why killers did not tunnel pre 6.1 is gone. There's 0 good reasons why not tunnel. And people are now surprised why so many killers tunnel and why killer queues take longer then survivors most of the time. Well good morning. How could it be any different?
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What do you mean zero good reason not to tunnel? I would personally do more to prevent tunneling don’t get me wrong, but there are more reasons not to tunnel than pre 6.1. OTR is literally just a better DS and they implemented base kit BT as well. It’s harder to tunnel now than it was pre 6.1. Also, survivor queues are much longer than killers for me, my killer queues are instant. I’m not sure where you would get from their changes that they don’t care about survivor experiences. If anything their patches are generally much harsher on killers.
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2 seconds because it takes 1 second to get off the killer's back and start moving
So no, really just 2 seconds
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In 2v1 scenario there's usually one of the two is slugged on the ground having two hooks and the killer (instead of sending them to the sky) is sweating for the last survivor for 4k. So who is holding the game hostage? Stealthing survivor? If so, yes, remove the hatch. BHVR won't give the survivors something like basekit unbreakable to prevent slug fest anyway. So yeah, the hatch is absolutely stupid. The other solution is highlighting the aura of the last hiding survivor for a killer. This would be even easier. I'd even suggest giving all killers a permanent aura reading, this would be best! O, and making survivors fall to the ground with one hit would also be cool as well as only one hook stage. You're hooked - you're gone.
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About tunnel - if you are trying to win, you have exactly 0 reasons to not tunnel. There is no advantage in going for someone else over going for freshly unhooked one. Especially if you camp (no matter if proxy or face) - you just hit said survivor at the same moment as he goes off from hook to disable built-in endurance or BT or OTR (making OTR just 80s old Iron will - making it FAR WORSE then old DS to actually deincentivize tunneling) - after this is done, survivor has a few meters head start, but has no DH and no other protection (save for DS just to reenable DH). Why would any tryhard killer ever decide to go for anyone else but the freshly unhooked person? Deleting 1 person from the game at 3+ gens left is autowin. Deleting 2+ people at 1+ (but not almost complete) gen is also autowin. So what should be the reason to ever NOT go for the freshly unhooked person? I see only one reason and that would be - you made a wrong pick of survivor and actually you selected the only person from survivor's team that is in fact good at looping and going for anybody else would be easier (but this assumes you actually did not leave the chase you should have left before).
Before patch 6.1 optimal strategy was to go for unhooker instead of person that just got unhooked, because going for unhooked would be actually quite a heavy time-sink (after your whole chase with survivor, he would just reset it back to 0 when you pick him up with quite a heavy head-start to get away). So instead optimal strategy was to forget about hooked person and go for anybody else - because first minute after unhook was basically dead time - and this is the main reason why so many people complain about tunneling after patch 6.1. Because optimal default strategy is to tunnel instead of going for anybody else (even if other survivors bodyblock to the point of them letting themselves go down).
And as for queue times - EU servers during day outside of 7pm to like maybe 10pm (a bit more during weekend) - survivor queues are always way quicker then killer's and incentives are always on killer. In the "exception time", most of the time incentives are still on survivor side, but not always and usually not 100% as are for the rest of the time. At 10am (and not just at 10) you are GUARANTEED to have instant survivor queue and 100% incentives. No exceptions ever.
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