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Otzdarva: On Tunneling Being 'Worse'.
Comments
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There's one thing I've learned over the years. Getting myself to the level of a decent surv made me a much better player.
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Plunderer is a perfectly fine perk
It is absolutely not. Chests are predominantly a waste of time and Plunderer doesn't fix that. It's a funny perk to run, but it's absolutely atrocious, basically a trap, like Autodidact and No Mither.
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Buffing chase also buffed tunneling. The killers dont actually have a harder time defending gens than before, its just that the 10 second increase gives survivors all the more reasons to split gens in 1/1/1.
Before the generator time increase, the most common generator strategy was 2/1. Then 2/1 and then 3. With 80 seconds gen, this took about 300 seconds assuming survivors werent being tunneled. During a tunnel or a camp, this would be less.
Nowadays, because of the 10 second increase, its 1/1/1 because early game 2/1 isnt really viable anymore, and then 2/1. So while basekit gens are increased, the average time is now 240 seconds, assuming someone is being tunneled, otherwise its about 260.
Personally, I would revert gens back to 80 seconds, and add a 10% slowdown for each extra generator that is being worked on. This makes 2/1 more viable than 1/1/1(2/1 results in 2 gens being finished in 89 seconds, where 1/1/1 results in 3 gens being finished in 100 seconds), as the slowdown is less overall, and results into a time of about 380 seconds, assuming survivors are not being tunneled.
So please BHVR, revert the timer by 10 seconds and add a punishment for multiple gens being worked on. It's a lot more effective in the long run.
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No, I have no idea what you're talking about.
If you want to make a thread about buffing crap survivor perks, maybe go and do that. Like...if you're going to sulk, I guess you can keep bumping this one, but I have no idea why.
- Hopefully you aren't trying some sort of sneaky semantics but: Thana is now worse than pre 6.1.0, Overcharge is potentially even worse too (12 seconds...that's just silly). Ruin, Pop, yes. Eruption? Going to be nerfed out of existence in less than 2 months. Then we'll have an even less varied regression meta than pre 6.1.0. Tan frigging frastic.
- I think you might have completely misunderstood what I said. One of the stated goals of 6.1.0 was to slow down gens, nerf the strongest regression options and allow killers more variety. Except now, regression is worse and gens can potentially be faster than before, thanks to the new perks. Hyperfocus is too powerful when combined with Stakeout and Fogwise, especially in an SWF. I don't think many folks are going to disagree with that.
BHVR seem 100% set on adding in crazy strong gen perks - so killers need to run deeper regression to stand a chance.
It absolutely is - but I think you're misunderstanding the perk.
It's not a 'meta' perk. It can't be, unless you want to rework it to do something completely different.
What it's there to do is allow you, if you escape, to potentially gain a nice item, at the expense of a perk slot. It does that fine.
In an SWF, you could even give your allies items.
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yes? to be fair, demo is user of stbfl so him eating that many dh is inherently good for building stbfl stacks but otz does not have stbfl so he is just tanking every DH. It is good match illustrate when some player say that DH does not impact matches. In many ways, DH is carried survivors to the win in this match. I would say survivor movement was worse then otz movement but gen speed is gen speed and no tunneling due to no way out is going to be worse then getting a player out of the match quickly.
Not entirely. I think that is major reason why people complain about eruption. If you do 1/1/1 and each of your gen is 60%. A killer can go and kick all 3 of these gens and if you do not finish these 3 gens in time, the killer can proc eruption on 3 gens and do 30% collective regression and 25 seconds on incapacitated on each gen. that is pretty immense value for 1 perk.
2/1 generator is a lot safer. your less likely to get hit by regression perks and you have greater chance of completing gens. Judging from old statistics, Prove thyself has higher usage rate post 6.1.0 compare to pre 6.1.0. That should already tell you that 2:1 generator is far popular then 1:1:1 setup as prove thyself only works if you co-op gens. Longer gens definitely incentives stacking on gens to complete them over spreading out. the bad thing about 2:1 is if your teammates bring the killer towards the 2 man gen. the killer can get a lot of detach injure pressure so stacking on gens does have its risks in terms of finishing generators. Usually when your stacking on gens, your generally trying to finish high priority gens that are inherently easy for the killer to defend so there is certainly risk vs reward towards doing this play. In most cases, its proactive measure to avoid 3 gen-locks which can sometimes be unavoidable if the killer hard-camps gens from the start of the match with full gen-kick setup.
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But I play the game to enjoy myself, not to become a better player. Spending hours and hours on a role I don't enjoy would be treating the game like a job.
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Fair enough.
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And are these 'killers' in the room with us now? Absolutely no one wanted this, we want more perk variety to be viable and for weaker killers to have buffs to be viable. That is all.
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I think most of them have left, but there's already two in this thread. Around 6.1., any thread made about tunnelling would be snowed in with people going 'it's a valid tactic', adamantly arguing against any nerfs to it. You might not like to hear it, but tunnelling and camping were fiercely defended, so that's where BHVR took things.
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What it's there to do is allow you, if you escape, to potentially gain a nice item, at the expense of a perk slot. It does that fine.
But it does nothing to help facilitate that escape. Its only function even requires you to soft-throw the game because chests are, 9 times out of 10, not worth opening. They take too long to get to, take too long to open, and if it's a map or key, it's all been a complete waste. If it's a toolbox, it can recoup a fragment of its loss because you can shave 5 seconds off a gen. If it's a medkit, it might break even. If it's a flashlight, you're going to have to pull off a save, which is pretty tricky.
Either way, if you are actively using this perk, your escape rate is likely to go down, rather than up.
In an SWF, you could even give your allies items.
Yeah, I've run a build like that. Plunderer, Ace in the Hole, Appraisal and another item related perk.
It's funny.
It also has a 0% winrate. Plunderer is a sandbag perk.
I'm not saying it needs some kind of drastic buff or anything, I think it's fine where it is as just a 'for fun' perk. But it's not a 'good' perk. If you bring it, you're not playing to win.
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So please BHVR, revert the timer by 10 seconds and add a punishment for multiple gens being worked on. It's a lot more effective in the long run.I want to understand the idea here. BHVR has time punishments for working on the same gen. Would those still exist in this plan? Or are we just counting how many survivors are working on gens regardless of where they are? And how much of a slowdown are we talking?
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1) Oh no.... please don't misunderstand... I see Overcharge as a buff (the skillcheck is still there so that being that) but the regression starting low then getting higher the more time passes... And Thanatoophobia isn't a Gen regression perk it's a slowdown (but you knew that)
2) No I understand what you are saying... but right now the best Gen regression is applied on a kick... and the best Gen progression is hitting great skillchecks and having a Toolbox
I don't know nor do I care about what BHVR does... not to be rude or anything
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Yes, all current basekit slowdown remains the same. So 2 people working on the same gen get just the 15% each. But 1 person working on a gen AND 2 people working on a different gen would result in the solo gen being slowed down with 10%(aka, 89 second gen) and the duo would be slowed down with 25% each instead of 15% each(so instead of 47 seconds, it would be 53 seconds, right now, a duo gen takes also 53 seconds). And again, 3 solo gens would take 114 seconds instead of the current 90.
This makes single generator progression in, lets say, a 3-gen scenario easier to deal with when there is most likely already 1 survivor dead, while multiple generators being worked on gets punished.
It is exactly what killers needed, it doesnt make generator slowdown like Thana, Dying Light or Gift of Pain overkill(Gift of Pain is really underappreciated, 16% slowdown on a 90 second gen means 107 seconds for a SOLO generator, on the old times, it was 95 seconds, more than plenty to finish a chase and interrupt the gen from finishing). It pretty much destroys the 1/1/1 strat, even in tournaments(because 90 seconds of chase isnt enough in tournaments to finish a chase, but 114 seconds would be), it reduces the gap between solo and swf, as communication on gen splitting isnt as important anymore and it just fixes so many other minor issues.
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Tru3Ta1ent is the only big streamer who streams at the daytime where the good survivors cross you.
I dont know why this happens, but Evening-Survivors (Germany/Europe) are easier to beat than at the daytime. These teams are busted as hell.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
...How is it a sandbag perk?
It's not No Mither. It's just a fun gimmick. It's not worse than an empty slot.
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I think the major reasons tunnelling is more widespread now than it had been in the past are the Decisive Strike nerf as well as simply a much grown awareness of tunnelling being the most effective killing strategy.
The Barbecue "nerf" has certainly had a negative impact on the game, giving killers less incentive to leave the hook or spread out hooks early, but I also don't believe it's had a huge impact. And particularly not on tunnelling, because as tunnelling has always been the best way to get a 4k, the desire to hook every survivor at least once is of course not a deterrent against tunnelling.
I also don't believe camping has gotten significantly less effective, let alone to a point where it has made tunnelling more attractive. Camping is in fact also more common than before, again mostly because of a rise in awareness of it being one of the most effective killing strategies. Usually camping and tunnelling actually go hand in hand. The idea that Reassurance would have made camping tangibly less impactful is honestly pretty silly. Not only does the perk not see ubiquitous use whatsoever, but it's regularly not even all that impactful against camping, for that you pretty much need multiple Reassurances and a team on voice comms coordinating its use, i. e. something you basically never see. Unhook endurance actually makes tunnelling more difficult than before, not camping, so it would support the opposite conclusion.
I don't see how "nice guy" builds have gotten any worse. BBQ wasn't actually nerfed, it just doesn't give extra BP anymore. Weasel isn't any more of a "nice guy" perk than, say, Call Of Brine, and Nowhere To Hide actually does encourage leaving hooks and seeking out survivors just like BBQ used to. Otz doesn't really explain why he thinks perks like Make Your Choice (which was never particularly popular at all to begin with?) have now totally fallen out of favour and would be less viable. No Way Out also still is just as viable. And while NOED did get nerfed, now we have Terminus, another actually rather potent endgame perk. This entire argument doesn't make much sense to me. Although I would agree that "hit and run" playstyles have gotten to be less effective with the advent of Circle Of Healing as well as a rise in med-kit usage.
Gen speed really hasn't gotten more problematic. Gen times have been increased, Brine, Eruption, Pain Resonance, Corrupt, Deadlock, Pentimento are slowdown perks that can hang with the best there's ever been, toolboxes have been nerfed substantially, and the only survivor perk that actually speeds up gens significantly is Hyperfocus, and not only do you need Stake Out alongside it in order for it to actually be good, but you of course also have to consistently hit increasingly difficult great skill checks, something even veterans struggle to do. I barely see people use the perk and when they do they often don't even get a lot of value out of it, especially considering that it makes them miss skill checks more often, something that can actually more than nullify any and all of its potential gen time reduction.
Decisive Strike used to be a great deterrent against tunnelling because the 5-second stun actually allowed the survivor to make so much distance that they could waste too much of the killer's time for it to be an efficient strategy anymore (including the possibility of losing the killer altogether). Now there is no reason to fear DS anymore. Don't get me wrong, it is still a decent perk, certainly much better than people make it out to be, but all it does is give the survivor another chance at an immediate chase, without any favourable distance, let alone the opportunity to make the killer lose track. So worst case scenario for the killer is they have to outplay the survivor at a tile again, they don't have to invest any time catching up to or looking for them. As long as you know you aren't dealing with a really good survivor, DS is a mild inconvenience at worst and doesn't do much to lessen the incredible efficiency of tunnelling someone out. Another issue is that people simply aren't using DS nearly as often anymore to begin with, partially because it's much worse than it used to be, partially because they think it's worse than it actually is. Plus there are killers that do more or less nullify the perk, such as Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Clown, Freddy, Wesker at max. infection. Off The Record isn't nearly as potent as old DS because base endurance already cancels out the perk's primary effect and because one hit worth of distance is not nearly as much as old DS granted, especially not against a variety of the killer abilities or STBFL.
There's been more popular and regular tournament DbD in the last two years than ever before, and it was much more on the forefront of the collective community's consciousness, not least due to BHVR's official community cups, as well as multiple high-profile streamers covering the topic repeatedly. Camping and tunnelling are the bread and butter strategies in competitive environments because they simply are the most effective strategies if your goal is to kill as many survivors as possible as consistently as possible, and the community has wisened up to this much more so than in the past, where it was much more common for the average player to think of camping and tunnelling as things that are akin to "throwing the game just to annoy someone in particular".
I think camping and tunnelling are important parts of the game and integral to its balance and shouldn't be removed altogether, but rebalancing is definitely in order, particularly because they are the bane of the solo survivor experience. Rebalancing meaning some nerfs for camping and tunnelling along with compensatory buffs to other aspects of killer gameplay. For tunnelling, they've actually already done a really good thing by implementing the 10-second unhook endurance. I personally do not have a problem with getting tunnelled, chase interaction is literally what I want to have, but it's still problematic because someone getting tunnelled means the other survivors will have little to no interaction with the killer, and if the person getting tunnelled is outmatched/unlucky/the killer too oppressive, the round can be a foregone conclusion without the other survivors even being able to do much of anything about it. There could be more comprehensive rebalancing for camping and tunnelling, but it would already go a long way to buff DS again (either by increasing the stun timer back to 5 seconds, or making it so that DS can activate up to two times, like OTR), make unhook endurance unhook invincibility instead (such that it doesn't clash with OTR, but remove survivor collision during those 10 seconds), as well as remove hook grabs. Compensation for these changes could be a buff for Weasel that allows it to remove 50% progress of the gen furthest away from the hook with progress on it (which the perk would highlight), a buff for BBQ that increases the killer's movement speed by 1% for every token (it loses a token whenever a survivor is hooked for the second or third time), a buff for Grim Embrace that makes it block generators for 10 seconds for every unfinished gen remaining on the map at the time of its activation, the ability to cancel a pallet break action, stuff like that.
Tunnelling definitely isn't as big of a gameplay issue as camping though. Tunnelling means consecutive chases, it still provides interactive and engaging gameplay. If you are good in chases, bring DH + DS and you won't mind getting tunnelled. If you aren't good in chases, bring SB + OTR, or even things like Lucky Break or Dance With Me that enable you to attempt to lose the killer. It's not ideal that perks are needed to deal with these things sometimes, but at least there do exist ways to better deal with it.
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Because in order to use the perk, you have to sandbag. You're right that it's not the worst perk, that award definitely goes to No Mither with Autodidact in second place, but it's a perk that does nothing, unless you sandbag.
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Are our definitions of sandbagging different? I don't see how plunderers leads to it.
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Terminus's big problem is that it's time-limited. Otherwise, it'd actually be good for deterring brazen save attempts.
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Yeah, I agree that Terminus - while decent and definitely underrated - often doesn't feel potent enough because its timer is only 30 seconds after the gates are opened. I think they should increase that to 1 minute, to actually make the endgame much more dicey for survivors, forcing them either to attempt rescue plays while still injured, or at least to delay their rescue plays until the collapse time is actually getting to be a problem. I'm not sure I would remove the timer entirely though, not least because at that point it funnily enough would often probably accomplish the opposite of what one may want it to - it will just make survivors leave asap rather than even attempt to go for any rescues.
Still, I really don't think endgame-oriented gameplay is any less viable for killers now than it used to be just because NOED was nerfed. NOED is still actually really rather strong, STBFL got indirectly buffed and can fulfil a similar role of being able to keep up pressure and snowball in the endgame, No Way Out is great, and the remaining endgame perks have always been gimmicks that should be buffed anyway. Oh, and not to mention, no DS (or OTR) in the endgame anymore. So yeah, even ignoring that endgame builds/strats had never been particularly popular to begin with, them supposedly being less viable now is definitely not a reason for an increase in tunnelling.
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