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It's time to bring back limited healing
Somewhere around three years ago DBD had a test where you could only heal about twice per game. After that you played broken. This gave you up to full three health states. This was not a perk from the killer but just a base mechanic that was tested.
One of the things VHS got right was that every hit from the killer mattered. Boons and medkits would carry survivors a lot less if you could not heal a fourth injury state.
This would instantly revive the "hit and run" playstyle as well as make several older/bad killers more relevant.
We could also weave this in such a way so that Nurse/Blight power hits don't cause the permanent injury state. This would nerf the best two killers in the game and buff every other lesser killer. In short for a nurse or blight to inflict permanent injury they would have to hit you twice with a "regular" swing or a grab (or potentially a deep wound bleed out). That would mean if a blight got a regular hit and got a power hit with the second health state then you would only be 1/2 of a step toward losing one permanent health state.
Imagine Blight and Nurse having the desire to not "want" to down you with their power. We could call this effect "favored of the entity". Because they are favored by the entity power hits do not contribute to a "broken" status. This would be a mindset much like the Predator who looks for the most sporting kills.
Survivors would need to be careful in planning when they want to be healed. If they are about to die they definitely want to heal now. But if they are not in danger they risk being broken before the end game.
In terms of mechanics it would be simple: m1 attacks from all killers move a survivor one half step towards losing a permanent health state.
We could add an effect to certain addons to make them add the effect "entity favored". This might include things like:
This would change the game so that very powerful killers and addons make you stronger in some ways and weaker in other ways.
Done correctly this could be a way to counterbalance the Hud update that gives survivors way too much info (looking at you generator progress %).
Comments
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Do this and you lost me on this game.
My playstyle and the reason I have a lot of fun forces me to take many (very safe) hits. You do this and I can no longer play sabotages (and I sabotage as a solo player instead of being in a squad).
If this went on, you could compensate-buff survivors to 120% base speed for all I care making them win 99% of games (actually this would also make the game not fun - but I think you can guess my point). I am out of this game
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Most people haven't realized yet but the Hud changes are just way too much. Most people I know who were killer mains quit years ago. I don't think many people are going to keep playing killer unless some massive buff comes along as a response.
This affects the players at high MMR the most but it will have a trickle down effect. If there is no one in queue but someone who is 1601 MMR then they will be the one selected to play the 2400 bully squad. That killer will either switch to a more efficient killer or stop playing the game. Either outcome hurts the game longevity.
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From my experience there is more then enough high mmr killers and I am pretty sure I already hit soft cap with both roles (mind you I don't say I am the best player there is). Maybe it's a regional issue if you have that experience? In Europe I feel fine playing both roles (even if I play survivors way more, I do play killers too). And especially after 6.1 it does not feel super hard. Compared to what it was years ago at minimum.
Anyway limiting heals is absolute no-go for me. It would remove me from the game as survivor and as a direct result also as killer (I would loose social contact associated with the game making it meaningless to try to hold onto it). So specifically this idea in my eyes would 100% kill the game (for me)
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A limited resource that starts full at the start of the game and that through chase a Killer will eat away at until the point of no return.
In effect that already exists in the form of Pallets.
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Let me know when your average survivor player is ~4000 hours and has played in multiple DBD tournaments.
There is a reason Blight and Nurse are the killers that get used in tournaments.
And that's where you are wrong because as I already mentioned Blight and Nurse largely ignore pallet mechanics.
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This would instantly revive the "hit and run" playstyle as well as make several older/bad killers more relevant.
sure nerfing survivor healing is way to buff hit & run, but a better way to buff those killers is to give them anti-healing perks or instant down perks that synergize with undetectable status or hit & run play-style.
Nurse calling for example is 28 meter perk but very few people that play killer run the perk. not even stealth killer want to use the perk. it used to be 32 meters. I am not sure even in current meta if 32 meter nurse calling would be viable. Maybe 40 meter nurse calling would make people use the perk?
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Health-state are weird in dbd because not every killer suffers from health-states equally. This is because value of health-state is how much distance it gives you before the killer catches up to you. For a killer like nurse or blight, that is very short amount of time because of their very good chase mobility.
Clown is good example of killer that suffers from health-states. He has to hit survivor two times and his catch-up is pretty weak. for chase oriented killers they get different perk to weaken health-state. that perk is stbfl. A big problem with stbfl is that the negative that stbfl has is really bad. Losing stacks on that perk feels bad but its best chance that those m1 killer got in term of health-state catch up & anti-body blocking.
Personally I still think health-states for non-mobility and non-ranged killers is too strong. I know they reduced speed from 1.8 from 2 seconds but I do think they need reduce it further from 1.8 to 1.5 second. I also think portion of stbfl could be base-kit, like add 10% extra to the base-kit cooldown. STBFL as a perk could just have no stack loss penalty and be a perk that stacks up to 8. To counter-balance base-kit cooldown reductions, the perk potency could be reduced from 5%->4% per token.
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Afaik in tournaments there are many killers used with different rules. This applies also to addons and survivor restrictions and selected maps to be played. I see no good argument there. (But if you realy need it, then apart from blight/nurse there are a lot of spirits, weskers, artists, hags, twinses, nemesises, demogorgons, plagues, etc). Sure each of them have different rules, but rules apply to both sides (I haven't seen many tournaments with mdr amulet spirits for example).
Also this game is mostly not a tournament. I play to win, but at foremost I play to have fun. This means that 1 of my perks will always be saboteur - a perk you will never ever see in tournaments, because sabo plays (against experienced killers) are just pure bad idea and something that can backfire even if played absolutely perfectly (depending on map and hook RNG).
Also the game have fairly benevolent soft cap. That means once you reach it, you get same opponents as literally best players this game has. Meaning even if you are way better then me, I am quite sure we get same opponents. And most of them most of the times are not comp players with 4k+ hours with at least 1K out of them in scrims...
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Imo this is a pretty dangerous change since it destroys a class of perk and item.
And one reason this game is so successful, imo, is just the wide variety of perks and playstyles available. Hit and run shouldn't be free either, you use it to spread pressure to put the survivors in a really bad situation when you finally do down someone.
Might be better to just nerf healing... again (botany knowledge was a huge nerf.) Swap self-care and CoH's self-healing times for example.
This might be a bit radical, but if you ask me I would double the charges and halve the healing speed to nerf medkits. For example, Brown and Yellow take 32 seconds, Green and Purple take 21.33 seconds. We could then buff the speed addons to make people more inclined to take those instead of stacking charges.
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This would disproportionately affect solo, as well as new survivors trying to learn to play more efficiently. I come equipped to heal myself because there is no guarantee someone else will. I've been matched with swfs who prefer to leave me injured as a nice meat shield for them - because the killer will zone in on the injured person over them. Coordinated swf teams would just navigate around this, take turns taking chase or bodyblocking, depending on who still has health or heal states. Slugging would become more prevalent once a killer knows which survivors can't be picked up and healed anymore.
Add to this, Iron Will was nerfed to heck, so not only would a killer have visual tracking (scratch marks), they'd have consistent auditory tracking with nothing survivors could do to dampen it. I honestly think alot of people would stop playing and the game would struggle to hold onto new players.
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You’re right, my initial comparison was incorrect given that anti-loop does indeed bypass those mechanics entirely using their Power, and given the Power restriction on this “decimation” mechanic insta-down Killers and effects(?) wouldn’t be able to bypass that.
Wouldn’t this be a boon for tunneling? Smacking the Unhooker so that they stay Injured or have to Heal up, using one of their Health states, while you chase down the Unhooked Survivor?
This system seems to seek to address the power that Survivors have with Healing for Killers without anti-loop, how being able to heal health states feeds into the number of pallets on the map those Killer have to interact with making losing a Survivor much more impactful than against a Killer without anti-loop.
Why not address this issue through tweaking the Pallet system instead of a system that also affects Survivor altruism with teammates when it come to interaction with the Killer?
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1) terrible idea. This would kill the game for a lot of people.
2) as a blight main, I can tell you this would change absolutely nothing about how I play. I’m still going to destroy teams using only m2. I wouldn’t care about a perma injure, makes no difference, and I can confidently say that on behalf of the other GOOD blight mains.
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Only if we also get limited regression per gen
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I don't think we need to cap the amount of times a survivor can heal like this. If healing is truly a problem, then let's give healing Freddy wake up treatment, each time you are fully healed it takes longer to heal.
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I think this is a brilliant idea and would solve almost all the issues with the game.
I will say, you'd probably have to make it slightly dynamic. Killers with speed bursts that make injury easier probably should let survivors have more heals (like Legion, Nurse, Blight). Killers with zero speed should give far fewer heals (Trapper).
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-"Slugging would become more prevalent once a killer knows which survivors can't be picked up and healed anymore."
That's not how it worked in the test. You were broken after X number of heals as if you had no mither. You could always be raised from the floor.
That would also work but it would reward the killers that can more readily injure such as Nurse/Blight.
Only if we get the amount of time any combination of perks/items to speed up a gen to a limit if 10% in total. In other words you can't even use more than one charge of a BNP. In fact why don't we make toolboxes sabotage only?
-"as a blight main, I can tell you this would change absolutely nothing about how I play"
We could all just do as you do and play one of the two killers that actually works. The fact that you say you would play exactly the same tells me it is a good idea. The best killers wont get any buffs and all the terrible ones would massively benefit.
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I don't think we need limited heals, the issue is the speed of healing.
Currently healing and self heals are out of control fast. CoH and Medkits are way too strong to where it makes injures meaningless. Self healing in general should almost always be pretty bad unless they are dedicating like multiple perks to it. For injures to mean something healing needs to take longer and generally speaking needs to make two survivors get off gens to do it.
Currently CoH as 1/16 perks can make survivors self heal faster than it takes most m1 killer to even get the hit to begin with and it's infinite, that's bad design. Medkits are even more extreme than that.
CoH should be only faster group heals or only really slow self heals. When injures don't mean anything it encourages people to tunnel more.
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This would kill altruism altogether, since you need to heal to go for saves against killers guarding the hook. And with hook grabs being a think you would need to send two people for the rescue. That's a minimum of two healings burned right there.
It's basically forcing a gen-before-friends meta.
There's a reason why nothing came out of that test
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I never noticed killer takes minutes to injure a person. Because if you don't want to make stupid boon = waste of time, then this is the case.
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Also as I said earlier - killers are not the problem now. 60% kill rate. Killer was never easier as is now after 6.1. there is actually 0 reasons to buff killers any more. This especially is super bad idea.
If you still have problems as a killer after 6.1, then I suggest you watch your games and try to learn from your mistakes. Watch more experienced players. Even people like Otz that currently is a little salty - wins most of the matches without strong slowdowns and busted addons against survivors with best items and perks...
Post edited by Gandor on1 -
"I never noticed killer takes minutes to injure a person. Because if you don't want to make stupid boon = waste of time, then this is the case."
There's no need to be hyperbolic. Even the average person in DBD understands that heals should not take less time than injures, that's bad design. I'm not saying killers take minutes for hits, but I am saying they typically take longer than 21 seconds which is a CoH heal.
"Also as I said earlier - killers are not the problem now. 60% kill rate. Killer was never easier as is now after 6.1. there is actually 0 reasons to buff killers any more. This especially is super bad idea."
This is flawed reasoning. You shouldn't quote kills in reference to balance as they are skewed by a multitude of factors that make it near irrelevant. Even the devs have said repeatedly not to draw conclusions from those kill rates because of this. Also I don't think it's the easiest it's ever been for killer, too many people are watching their favorite streamer repeat this instead of actually having the game experience themselves.
"If you still have problems as a killer after 6.1, then I suggest you watch your games and try to learn from your mistakes. Watch more experienced players. Even people like Otz that currently is a little salty - wins most of the matches without strong slowdowns and busted addons against survivors with best items and perks..."
I don't think you have very much experience at high MMR if you're feeling this way. High MMR matches against equally good SWF groups is a completely different game than lots of the player base experiences. Most high end killers only win through being forced to tunnel someone out asap, that's how bad it is.
There's a difference between winning and why you are winning. Most matches killers win are through survivors making lots of mistakes, if both sides play perfectly you will lose almost every time as killer. This is why kills is not indicative of balance as I mentioned earlier, this is confusing correlation with causation.
It's more important to understand why someone is winning than just if they won.
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I can see killers using 3 gen stragedy to win every game if this would be put on the game.
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21s heals with boons is the same thing as saying eruption on each trigger slows down the game by 120,75s. Like under ideal conditions, you are right. Under realistic conditions, it takes anything between 21s (a rare thing, but possible) and literal minutes - if it's even possible at all.
too many people are watching their favorite streamer repeat this instead of actually having the game experience themselves.
But that's not true. I say it from my personal experience as well as from streamers. I do play killer. I just play survivors more. And winning as killer or at least not loosing is easier in my personal experience. It's not 100% (it can be very near that if I decide to take some nasty things for a change). And of course I also get sometimes 4 out. But it's generally easier to win as killer (or at least not loose) the it is for survivor - at least for me.
I don't think you have very much experience at high MMR if you're feeling this way.
But this is exactly it. You loose some games. You loose them bad. You win some games without effort - even feeling bad for the other side. The important thing is, how it averages out. And I already wrote how it averages in my games in previous paragraph.
Most matches killers win are through survivors making lots of mistakes, if both sides play perfectly you will lose almost every time as killer.
I don't feel this is true at all. There are some insane things killers can do - forcing people into 50:50 or outright winning stuff. What I feel is, that you don't have chance if you take chill build while the other side takes "nukes". No matter which side we are talking about. Like there's literally nothing you can do against good (not even god) spirit with MDR + amulet + 4 regression perks. Same for the other side - 4man stacked with BNP's.
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This is just a bad idea, killers can just tunnel (more than they do) knowing that in some point survivor can’t heal, will camp the 3 gen because there’s gonna be easy hits. Perks that requieres protection hits are gonna be useless and camping is gonna be even worse because you gonna be downed trying to unhook.
Ok, let’s say it happens, you have to compensate survivors in exchange, remove thanatophobia and gift of pain, when broken old iron will and no mither needs to be basekit, you can’t get hit when unhooking and it can work as old BT and maybe we can be good.
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-"I don't feel this is true at all."
And that tells me we are playing a completely different game because you are not playing vs only high MMR lobbies.
Mind games work very well vs bad players and often backfire vs the very best. They do not work vs the very best players because they know where to stand on every tile to prevent a 50/50 from being an option. Some of them do things that I am not allowed to say what so that they have an advantage.
Boons offer fast unlimited healing for the survivors. To say the least the killer should be able to break bones when they kick the boon. Imagine how broken the game would be if you could only overwrite a hex with a boon. That's not a very realistic game change but how about if the killer could just relight blood fervor infinitely unless all the bones were broken? You would see that totem used way more often and survivors would need to waste time breaking every totem every game - making CoH far less useful.
DBD has a rule set for survivors and a different rule set for killers.
1) Survivors are allowed to tunnel generators but Killers are not allowed to tunnel survivors.
2) Hexes are high risk with meh reward and boons are low risk with high reward.
3) SWF is fine but Nurse and Blight ruin the game.
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-"I don't think you have very much experience at high MMR if you're feeling this way. High MMR matches against equally good SWF groups is a completely different game than lots of the player base experiences. Most high end killers only win through being forced to tunnel someone out asap, that's how bad it is."
Quoted for truth. It's very clear by what you say Gandor that you take certain ideas as "truth" that are only absolutes when the game is not 3,000+ hour killer vs ~20,000+ hour group of survivors.
-"killers can just tunnel... knowing that in some point survivor can’t heal"
Why would I need to tunnel? There wouldn't be people healing more than three times per game so there would be far less body blocking. That means chases would be shorter. It would also prevent the "weaponization" of built in borrowed time as it would move you one half step closer to being permanently broken.
Consider that I could just play Blight and Nurse and have a supreme advantage and I could tunnel anyway- nothing changes. With this change you have the option to see some of the rest of the killer cast. It would be a very good indication for game health if survivors said, "Oh no it's a nemesis!", with the same sincerity as if it were a nurse.
There are several things that need to change to put DBD in a healthy state. One of them is that every killer that isn't Nurse/Blight needs to be closer in power to those two killers.
Tell me from your imagination an original idea to buff all the other killers by a single blanket mechanic without buffing Nurse/Blight.
What else needs to change in DBD?
1) chases need to be shorter so generators can be defended more readily vs efficient survivors (also known as : more pallets that have a long side and short side and are "unsafe". The game needs fewer "you must break this or I can loop it forever" pallets.
2) the other killers need to be able to play the game in a way so they dont automatically lose if their 3 gen is broken (also known as : all maps need to be 9000m² or smaller).
3) There needs to be mechanics to prevent tunneling by both sides. Imagine for example this base mechanic: If one survivor is hooked then the generator with the most progress immediately begins regressing (at the speed as if kicked by any regression perks such as Overcharge/CoB as if the killer had kicked it) and cannot be interacted with while the survivor is on a hook if the killer is more than 16m away from the hook and is not chasing a survivor. This will only affect one generator at a time and ceases to function if one player is removed from the game.
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There's a soft cap in place. If you vet vastly different survivors... Maybe it means that in fact you are not as strong as you think?
Also do you feel like coconut/otz/supaalt/hens/spookyloops/..... The list is super long .... Have any troubles winning the game if/when they decide to play super sweaty without handicapping themselves? Or do you get better survivors then they do (especially if they do streaks)?
Do you really feel like they are super minority of players? Because today I had survivor incentived (25% to 100%) whole day, but not a minute of any incentives on killer side.
Or let's go at it from the other side. Take best survivor player there is - say Ayrun for example. Let him tryhard to maximum and play in soloQ trying to go for as long winstreak as possible for half a year without any pause. What do you think. Where will he get himself? Survivor is "OP" so by your words he should get to some ridiculous number right? Like 34.... Yes. 34. There's 100 escape streak on sadako, but only 34 on solo survivor. Because survivors are OP and so killers objectively need buffs, because soloQ got some extra information....
Do you feel bad now? You argue for killer buffs because THE weakest role in whole game got buffs that do exactly nothing for anybody else but them.
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Survivor is supposed to get killed 60% of the time. That's what the devs said they wanted and that is the "rate". You look at this and say from that that the survivor is the weaker side.
When everyone is bad at the game killer has an advantage. When both sides have learned a few tricks the game is roughly even. When survivors have become grandmasters and use SWF to always have voice coms - they run away with the game.
-"say Ayrun for example"
Maybe you should look at the hardcore challenge they do. For the most part they play with trash perks and limited items but are very skilled players. The mop the floor against most of the killers they play against.
I would love to see them do a bully mode where they just bring the absolute most powerful things with the intent of trying to completely "run away" with the game.
I think you need to do yourself a favor and go look up the marth experiments.
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Ayrun was trying to do soloQ streak for a half a year. Tryharding to max. Only restriction was not using key. Everything counted, BNP's, anything else possible. In half a year he couldn't get above 34...
Now can you again say that killers are weak? And strictly soloQ buffs went overboard? When there is SADAKO streak of 100 wins?
Also you talk swf and then compare to all killers. But when I say best solo, suddenly all killers argument is not so interesting right? Because getting above 34 with trapper is much more possible. But when speaking about 4man swf that scrim together, then in this case comparing that to supaalf 550 win streak is unfair... Well guess what. Pick your parameters and then compare.
And about kill rate - I am still convinced devs target of 60% is unfair by 10%. Pvp games should be balanced and both sides should have equal chance - in case of 2 teams that's 50% for both (where any draws are evenly split between win and losses). There was no argument in the forum that would convince me otherwise (all I heard so far is a, match wins but count draws the same as losses or b, that I am biased and illogical or c, that I should welcome being on the loosing end because that's challenge and killers are weaker even if they on average win more. So no actually good argument was given to me)
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This is a perfect example of how stupid the hud changes are. Spoiler: there are only three hooks in a Blight game.
What changed? Everyone can see that someone was working on a generator and it was ~80% so they go and find that generator instead of starting a new one. This completely breaks the game.
-"Pvp games should be balanced and both sides should have equal chance"
The games that have the best balance have take account for low, medium and high skill players. DBD doesn't really balance for high skill players. This ruins the game when you get to high MMR as killer unless you play Nurse/Blight. I've said it many times because it remains true : the best Doctor in the world is going to be vastly inferior to just an "ok" Blight.
Likewise there is a mountain of difference between solo players and SWF teams on voice coms.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
We are talking about buffs that do literally NOTHING for experienced SWF comms players. So why the lash out for buff that buffs strictly players that are weaker (or at minimum less experienced)?
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Who exactly are you addressing with this post?
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-"If you still have problems as a killer after 6.1, then I suggest you watch your games and try to learn from your mistakes. Watch more experienced players. Even people like Otz that currently is a little salty"
I think you might need to go have a look at Otz's channel. He tunneled every game he played the last time I watched his stream all while saying : you shouldn't tunnel but I need to tunnel this girl out to win.
CMWinter who plays pig has come to the realization that he will tunnel every game or lose.
Truetalent has shifted to only playing killer by request.
What changed? The new hud changes make playing survivor grossly unfair. You have an insane ability to pressure the gens because you know who is repairing and how far along is their progress. It was the uncertainty that gave killers that were not nurse/blight a chance before this update.
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Ok. Speak with just killer mains. Disregard the fact that ppl like otz win literally 90% of their games without strong addons or perks against ppl that bring meta stuff. Focus only on their need to tunnel. Also disregard the fact that universally every bigger streamer (Otz included) will tell you soloQ feels miserable and they need buffs and then complain that said buff that absolutely does not help skilled SWF in any way - that said buffs are given to universally and unanimously to wakest player base. But overall you want fair game for everyone (so long as it only buffs your side - otherwise it's unfair)
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You ever gonna stop being a hypocrite and provide some reasoning for your opinions or just continue stating them as fact? Also, sniffing your own arse over 'high MMR' DBD is just pathetic and cringe.
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the blight had rough game. if your playing at top-level and your not amazing with your killer. you should expect to lose against survivor to equal level unless you play better than them. blight has potencial to outperform his opposition. he is got no problems.
it was ~80% so they go and find that generator instead of starting a new one. This completely breaks the game.
Survivors playing the game properly should not be considering breaking the game. The blight played worse then the survivor therefore lost. that is how games are suppose be.
Likewise there is a mountain of difference between solo players and SWF teams on voice coms.
Your post is complaining about solo HUD matching SWF-level decision making. The gen UI is good step forward to bridge gap between SWF and solo. they do have some other stuff to bridge for soloq survivor but they're making good progress.
DBD doesn't really balance for high skill players.
Previously, it was unable to balance for highest skill players because soloq player were not playing at highest level. Only SWF was. Now it is certainly closer. That is why a lot of killer kept getting nerfed for w/e reason because they were oppressive for soloq. Billy, freddy and deathslinger did not deserve negative changes but they got negative changes because of the whole soloq vs swf level. Hopefully these type of changes get reverted in the future when the game is more evenly balanced between soloq/SWF. other killer should also receive improvements so that killer can more creatively use their power to alter the games outcome(if they are good enough at using the ability). dbd as a whole in my opinion suppresses survivor's ability to optimize their objective(except in SWF) and suppress a lot of killer power as result poor survivor play. They look at kill-rates, see that the kill-rate is high than think the killer is over-performing when in reality the survivor are playing poorly. killer power are not over-performing. soloq survivor is under-performing. Now they should under-performing less often with new UI changes. Most people know that SWF/Survivor playing well is too strong and killer using their ability correctly is too weak. this is why they will need to revert/improve killer powers progressively as they equalize soloq to SWF level. Killer do deserve fair chance to win against good solo/swf survivors. It is just that good solos is not that strong and good swf is obviously too strong(in comparison to most killer cast's power-level).
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-"if your playing at top-level and your not amazing with your killer. you should expect to lose against survivor to equal level unless you play better than them"
True did a good job of wasting quite a bit of time. He knows how to play blight and hard countered the chase mechanics extremely well. And then he added insult to injury with the Dead Hard.
-"Your post is complaining about solo HUD matching SWF-level decision making. The gen UI is good step forward to bridge gap between SWF and solo."
Ok so when are we going to bridge the gap between the worst killer and the best killer? Bringing all players up to SWF levels if fine if we give all killers ~9.0 movement speed chase abilities, strong anti loop, and the ability to end all chases quickly.
There are two killers in the game well suited to deal with SWF and everything else is left in the dirt.
We need to see changes so that Trapper, Myers, Doctor, etc. are all within 10-15% effectiveness of Nurse.
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As one who plays both sides of the killer/survivor fence, I think this is a terrible idea, but ultimately it doesn't matter. This was already tried in PTB and didn't make the cut.
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k so when are we going to bridge the gap between the worst killer and the best killer?
Good question. No clue. Some killer might never become challenging to play against and will stay as worst killer for better or worse. All I can say is that a lot of killer power are made extremely safe such that the killer player is suppressed from using creative perks to make the killer difficult to escape from and that killer power themselves are suppressed such that the player does not get too much reward from said ability. dbd is really weird in the sense that the better you get at dbd, the more restricted and punished you get for being good. I have no words to describe this.
survivor is also restricted in soloq in term of the amount of information you get to make correct plays at the correct time in a given match. you can get better information through perks like window of opportunity, kindred and bond to make near perfect plays in soloq similar to a swf, but its boring to use same perks over and over again rather then playing more random perks. I think that is why a lot of survivor like playing in a swf because you have more freedom to play how you want to play. with recent UI changes, it is little less restrictive. your post is effectively complaining that the survivor is playing better and is less in the dark then before.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on1 -
Having a heal cap makes sense in a world where you can't kick generators that are at 100% so they go back to 99% progress.
If DBD moved away from 3 gen or gg then we could have a game that focuses on chases instead of 3 gen and tunneling.
The most efficient way for me to play killer is to hook one person three times. Convince me I should ever not do this? Limited healing does that. Being able to turn completed gens back to 99% does that too.
-"dbd is really weird in the sense that the better you get at dbd, the more restricted and punished you get for being good."
It's worse than you think because as your skill level goes up as killer you get to the point where you either need to stop playing, throw matches or switch to Blight/Nurse.
-"survivor is also restricted in soloq in term of the amount of information you get to make correct plays at the correct time in a given match."
This is no longer true. Being able to see gen progress in real time with no callout gives you more information than is fair.
Honestly we need to either buff almost all the killer perks or give killers that are not nurse-blight somewhere between 6-8 total perk slots to balance this out.
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Survivors already have a depletable resource that ends the game for them: Hook States.
If you want Basic Attacks to feel like they always add something, think about including something akin to a Rage Meter (that builds off of Basic Attacks) instead of making Health States limited.
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I realize what you're getting at with an enrage meter like VHS has in their game. The problem is that DBD has incincibility states. An enrage attack would need to ignore that.
That would mean you can't dead hard an enrage attack and that would make survivor mains angry. Honestly for the game to have any real justice the killer would also likely need to be given enrage attack progess every time a pallet is dropped.
And then we're back to a state where Nurse and Blight are getting buffs and the killers that need it are not catching up to those killers. Try again.
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How about it doesn't ignore it, but only deactivates upon a Survivor down? You hit them with the Enraged Attack, the Survivor isn't put into the dying state, so you're still "enraged".
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Honestly we need to either buff almost all the killer perks or give killers that are not nurse-blight somewhere between 6-8 total perk slots to balance this out.
I think your slightly exaggerating. Killer micro play matters a lot more then I think you realize for killer. killer powers matter quite a bit. A series of micro plays that the killer makes a mistake in and the survivor triumph over does greatly change outcome of the match. Your ability to use killer power effectively and not deal with boring drawback of killer powers more valuable then you realize. killer perk matter a lot as well. i mean its 4 perks vs 16 perks. so yeah it is important that killer perks contribute to the match for killer? I do not think you need 6-8 perks slots. just 4 good perks.
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And what purpose would that serve? You chased someone and got nothing. That is entirely the point of what the Enrage feature does in VHS. When you hit someone they go down and start bleeding out and permanently losing health.
-"I think your slightly exaggerating. Killer micro play matters a lot more then I think you realize for killer. killer powers matter quite a bit."
I think you're dead wrong. Take any Killer from the "C" list played by the best player in the world for that killer. Have them play with whatever addons they choose across every map in the game against different highly skilled SWF teams. And then Bring in someone like Hens to play Nurse with no perks and no addons (not telling the survivors the nurse has nothing to help). Hens on naked nurse will absolutely destroy any killer from the C block.
Almost every killer in the C block is going to struggle on the majority of survivor sided maps even with "the best possible loadout".
This is one of the big problems with DBD. The difference between best in slot Nurse/Blight and Best in slot anything else is massive.
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Considering what you said. I think it's fair gens can be now completed in 10s. Why? Because limited healing and creating 3gen out of finished gens is in about the same level of absurdity.
The role that murders the other role most of the time in throwing fits, because weakest role will still be weakest, but the difference is a little bit smaller. Prepostrious! Outrageous! Insane!
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um yeah? that is because they've balance off soloq which plays survivor really poorly. that is not say that you can't win with random teams playing survivor but its definitely harder especially consider that your at very -1 perk slot on information. dead hard is like essential to every survivor build(or use another exhaustion but a lot of exhaustion are not that good and very conditional in effectiveness) and then you have to deal with teammate have trouble healing so you end up bring COH which killer complain about 24/7 which is funny. The purpose is so your teammate are not playing no mither the entire game for taking 1 hit. You get 1 free perk slot to use whatever you want. If killer are not complaining about COH, then they're complaining med-kits.
Almost every killer in the C block is going to struggle on the majority of survivor sided maps even with "the best possible loadout".
That is because a lot of D-tier to C-block killers have really bad balance on their base statistic for their power so of course they won't do well.
Like looking trapper who otz rate as worst. what issues does trapper have that make very bad to play? It takes longer to setup traps then it does for survivor to disable them. the power setting time takes too long making it almost useless in chase. relies on 3 gen-lock down. What is bad about sadako that makes D-tier according otz list? Bad stealth, has lullaby for w/e reason. Mori takes forever to activate even with condemn add-on's. Long TV cooldowns at base-kit. terrible invisibility in chase. If you believe dev kill statistic, Sadako is 65% kill-rate, #1 killer in the game /shrug. What about myer's? Why is he here? Takes long time to get out of t1 without stalking add-on, irrelevant ev2 bonuses, can be looped as m1 killer in tier 3 if survivor is good at pallet looping. Relies on instant kills to be relevant which is not ideal for killer. Freddy just needs revert pre-nerf. everything that is bad about freddy is bad because it got nerfed(add-on, walking m/s for setting snares, pointless dream world etc.). Freddy is the revert zone. The list goes on. One thing I have to say is just because a character is A-tier does not mean that character cannot be better. In some cases, even A-tier characters could use QOL to their gameplay. Of course its less major then what D-tier char would get improvement but QOL can still help.
So when your saying "Nurse & blight will outperform D-tier killers". Well yeah of course it outperforms D-tier killers. those D-tier are bad. that is why they are D-tier..... Killer micro plays matter a lot and their base-kit a lot as well.
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There is no source of Endurance that triggers while Healthy. If you gain Rage and still go for an Injured Survivor that's on you (but this also brings to question how Rage should trigger in DBD). If Survivors stop healing because they know Rage is coming up, that's effectively a Healing deterrent that doesn't hard limit survivor agency. If Rage isn't lost on hitting Endurance that means body-blocking with Endurance following with a body-block by the uninjured Survivor won't be a thing (or multiple strings of Endurance body-blocks).
VHS needs the chip damage on every hit because otherwise Teens could regroup after the on-hit grace period and simply rotate defense of the Injured Teen until the Monster literally has to Injure all Teens to be able to get the first down given that Teens are given combative capabilities as part of their Objective in that game.
In DBD it's defensive and the Killer is designed around being unstoppable, so Survivors can't hold ground at all, it's a question of if they can hold out long enough to power the escape route.
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-"If you gain Rage and still go for an Injured Survivor that's on you"
Not to go around in circles but again this would make the effect pointless. The only state that should ignore enraged should be borrowed time from a hook.
Another way to achieve a similar result could be done with damage having a lasting effect. Imagine for example if every damaging swing made your next heal take 25% longer.
This would also punish dead hard users more than those were not using it as they would have 150% longer heals on the 6th hit. Someone who had been downed twice without dead hard would only be at 100% longer heals.
There should not be an ocean of difference between the bottom killers and the best killers. You completely missed the point. The difference between the best and worst should be 10-15% at most.
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Your end goal is to make Basic Attacks attrition Survivors to the point that they remain Injured and cause chases to be shorter for M1 Killers. (As does the rage mechanic, but more tied to empowering the Killer vs. Survivor attrition).
This mechanic is already in place with Pallets acting as chase extenders that the Killers can permanently remove from the Trial.
All you’ll do with your changes (and the rage mechanic) is make Hook proxy gameplay a lot more dangerous for Survivors and much more beneficial for Killers to perform.
And actually the more I think about it, no Killer is an M1 Killer.
Every Killer has a Power. If they don’t have anti-loop, their Power should apply some kind of attrition that adds enough time to eat through those two health states.
In effect the issue isn’t Survivors being able to heal preventing attrition, but rather that a Killers Power doesn’t provide enough attrition to allow a Killer to commit to chases, and should be approached on a case-by-case basis.
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