Boons should be a one-time only perk
Hi! Hope everyone is doing fine.
So, i'm here to talk about boons. I think much have been said about it, but i still feel it can be an overwhelming perk in certain maps, especially in stronger one (Like Raccon Police Department, The Game or Eerye of Crows). Even with the killer having the possibility to snuff out the totem, survivors can easily light it up in another place, like near a completed generator.
I think boons should be a one-time use perk: when the killer snuff out the totem, the perk remains inactive for the remainer of the match. This could make the perk a more strategic one for healing, instead of a free medkit for everyone in the team.
Whats your thoughts on the current state of boons? How you guys have been dealing with the boons?
Comments
-
I don't think this change would be necessary for the majority of the boon perks, though. Dark Theory is pretty awful, Exponential is extremely situational, and while Shadow Step is definitely decent I don't think it's so strong that it warrants a permanent deactivation on snuff.
I feel like when you say "boons" you really just mean Circle of Healing, and you don't fix one perk by taking a sledgehammer to its shared mechanic. Old Undying wasn't fixed by nerfing hexes or totem placements, it was fixed by changing that perk specifically.
12 -
Where is the strategy if it can be heard and snuffed?
You can place it on mars it would still be relatively easy to get rid of it.
I am not saying multiple cohs are healthy for the game but your suggestion is to just kill a perk.
5 -
Boons would then be worse than hexes and hexes are already terrible. Just nerf CoH and honestly buff exponential and dark theory cuz they're trash.
0 -
No that would kill the mechanic. In all honesty most hexs are stronger then most boons .
Just balance coh not make it completely useless
4 -
That's generally been my experience when people talk about Boons. They almost always actually mean Circle of Healing.
To be fair that actually does tend to be the issue with doing anything about Circle of Healing in particular. How to change it without damaging the other Boons in general, which is what most suggestions I've seen made would do.
I've seen some suggestions like remove the self-heal or, conversely, make it only a self-heal when in the Boon's area (in other words either give self-healing or boost Healing others, but not both). Also saw a suggestion of it doesn't affect healing directly but shows the aura of injured Survivors in its effect Empathy-style.
0 -
I think that healing speeds in general need to be heavily looked at, CoH on its own isn't a problem. It's only when it's stacked with other healing sources, which all stack aggressively with one another and are all pretty decent alone, that it becomes a pretty huge problem.
That being said, CoH does cause problems for the boon mechanic because it breaks all the rules. I don't know what this would look like, but it should be ground-up reworked to work the same way as the other boons and incentivise the killer being nearby to use it properly. Maybe nothing to do with healing at all, I don't know.
1 -
I think the whole point of COH in particular was to provide a medlit area for all survs, especially with the hammering Self Care took. In solo queue it's darn near impossible to get a timely heal from an ally, so that boon is super helpful to the whole team. And COH has been changed a few times already.
The maps you mentioned offer multiple floors that the boons can nearly all reach. If we wish to look at that aspect of coverage, I bet they'll be a backlash against it, saying then we should not have terror radius effects behaving in the same way. All non-stealth killers benefit from that, especially doc and Wesker, as it creates much hesitation and confusion.
2 -
What rules? the devs never said boons are supposed to be used with the killer near them.tp get the benefits.
All it is is that boons provides an arean of wffect that gives the survivors benefits. Nothing about killers was involved in that
1 -
Something like "cap all Healing boosts within the boon at 100%" the way We'll Make It does? Or it only works when you heal without a medkit like Autodidact and Solidarity?
That or a diminishing returns system where stacking multiple sources of a boost are rendered less effective.
To go on the second point, maybe "you can self heal in the boon but healing others is only boosted if the Killer is nearby / you're within their terror radius, like a reverse of Coulrophobia?
0 -
1: If you want to destroy a boon, there's a perk for that.
2: Boons take 14 seconds. That's a pretty big slowdown even if you don't destroy it.
3: If they keep blessing the same totem, well you now know where they are going to be.
4: CoH is most valuable against a killer over relying on a 3 gen. If the killer decides to stop patrolling certain portions of the map, the survivors should be able to use that to their benefit.
6 -
3/4 boons require the killer to be within audio range to really get value anyway and this would kill those options making COH literally the only viable boon
0 -
I use "rules" loosely, it's more like the conventions of the mechanic and its associated perks. Shadow Step and Dark Theory are near useless if the killer isn't nearby, and arguably you want the killer nearby for Exponential too since crawling to it might take forever if you're downed too far away from it. CoH is the only one that gets more value the further the killer is from it while it's used, and since it's also far and away the most valuable, that kind of stifles boons as a mechanic.
The whole back-and-forth idea of snuffing and relighting is also skewed if the boon isn't close to the action, so that contributes.
I'd rather look at all sources of healing independent of CoH, since you don't exactly need a boon to get ultra fast healing speeds. Making it not stack with medkits would be a good "intermediate" step while bigger reforms are worked on though, so I'd support that.
I did see someone once suggest CoH should be reworked to a Vigil boon, that's pretty okay as an idea and plays into the established conventions a bit better.
0 -
I don't think this is a bad thing. Boons should only be there to provide benefits in a small areas to survivors regardless if it's away from the killer or near the killer.
There should be diversity in how boons act. I'm still waiting for a boon that provides benefits to only one survivor and not all of them.
0 -
i think boons should fade out overtime regardless of being snuff.
after 2 min of Circle of healing being up the boon should distinguish back into a dull.
Shadow step & exponential can be 4 mins since they not that powerful.
Dark theory 5 mins
2 -
That's generally been my experience when people talk about Boons. They almost always actually mean Circle of Healing.
Yep. Keeps coming back.
And while Circle of Healing is strong, I wouldn't say that current Circle of Healing is overbearingly so. It might need some slight adjustments, like halving the heal speed boost when healing yourself, and probably disallowing it stacking with medkits, but people keep yammering about this scorched earth approach to ALL boons.
And there's usually the argument of 'well, hexes...', but hexes are almost universally -way- stronger than boons. There's like six hexes that are all more popular than the second most popular boon.
If Circle of Healing is getting another nerf, let it be this: Circle of Healing increases the time it takes to boon a totem by 6 seconds. That'll knock its effectiveness a little bit, and add more value to snuffing it out without drilling it down to sit with the rest of the boon perks in absolute oblivion.
But it's always a scorched earth nerf suggestion that is massively disproportionate to how effective CoH actually is.
1 -
Just make Shattered Hope base kit and boons would be fine.
Dark Theory would need a buff after that though and perhaps Shadow Step as well. Other than that, the other two boons would be fine.
1 -
Most boons aren't strong enough to warrant that, coh isint even that bad anymore
0 -
I play both sides about equally and from the killers perspective I think boons are fine. In fact, the only one that isn’t terrible is CoH and since it was nerfed I don’t find it to be a problem. The suggestion to make it one-time use would essentially kill all boons perks as nobody would ever use them.
1 -
How on earth would Exponential be fine? It's already garbage tier.
2 -
According to the killer mains, its balanced perk.
If they would have their way everything would Exponential tier on survivors
3 -
Sooooo…shattered hope should do?
0 -
While I do agree that CoH is currently the strongest boon, I think people misunderstand why it is so strong, other than unlimited healing.
The biggest weakness to boons at the moment is totem spawn rng. A lot of them are supposed to give you an advantage in the chase, so they depend on being placed somewhere the killer can't easily patrol through and randomly find and snuff it, but still close enough to the action that the killer can't remove it from their patrol path and ignore it.
CoH is the only boon that does not care where you place it. it will still provide value for your team by giving you unlimited self healing, and placing it away from the killer's patrol path is actually preferable. So it usually never gets snuffed like the other 3 boons.
1 -
Exponential is incredibly strong, especially if you are playing a killer which is rewarded for slugging.
The case is even worse against Twins, since it is a perk that feels designed to destroy this killer.
0 -
No killer is uniquely rewarded for slugging. It's just a consequence of the playstyle for Twins. And even against them, I wouldn't bet on the perk being of much use due to its range restriction and counterplay.
And even then, the perk only being useful against Twins does not make it a useful perk overall.
3 -
I think you're talking about circle , perk nerfed twice already,,,can't see how they nerf it even more although there's a rumor it's up the nerf block later down the line,,perhaps they make it give self care speed or remove the speed for altruistic heals / medkits?
0 -
Whoa, how would it be fair to permanently disable a perk just because the opponent broke the totem? That would be really imbalanced!
1 -
Yeah, when i was writing i've thought mostly on Circle of Healing, but other boons can get annoying. Shadow step in certain maps can be very obnoxious, and Exponential in a 4 man can make you lose a lot of pressure.
I feel we just need a way to deal with boons faster, especially since its a 1vs4 time battle.
0 -
Being a gameplay destroyer perk to a specific killer while also being quite decent against others is quite a deal. Old Iron Will was a stupid counterplay to Spirit while also being okayish against any other killer, hence why it was nerfed. What makes Exponential better is the fact that only one person needs to use it to give the benefit to the entire team, while with Iron Will everyone had to have their own, so there is much less risk with the boon.
Oni, Plague, and Myers have their gameplay centered around slugging, because slugging is the efficient way of playing them. Exponential wouldn't be a problem for them if you could know whether the survivors have it or not. If this was the case, they could decide on the least efficient play and not slug if they know there is an Exponential, but since they don't they have to guess and possibly get surprised by it in the worst case possible.
In Twins case, what makes Exponential their perfect counterplay is that, unlike the other three killers I mentioned before, they are completely reliant on slugging. Since Charlotte is a potato, you will normally spend most of your gameplay as Victor. If you didn't want to slug, you would have to keep going back to Charlotte, walk to the place you downed the survivor, and only then place them on a hook. This takes a ridiculous amount of time, especially on big maps so it is necessary for the Twins go for big slugs. What makes it even worse is that Victor can't snuff totems, so if there is a boon you probably will just ignore it because going back to Charlotte and snuffing it is a momentum breaker.
1 -
If you're really that bothered about boons start running shattered hope. There is always a counter you've just got to be willing to run it. You'll be begging devs to show you what perks survivors are running next because seeing their equipment isn't enough.
1 -
Being a gameplay destroyer perk to a specific killer while also being quite decent against others is quite a deal.
But it's -not- a decent perk against others. It's hard-countered by pressing spacebar. Most killers won't care. And even if they do, the boon is still incredibly conditional, and can still be easily circumvented.
Oni, Plague, and Myers have their gameplay centered around slugging, because slugging is the efficient way of playing them.
But that's on the assumption that said killers are chasing multiple slugs in the same area which happens to have been booned before, but not so far before that the killer found and snuffed it. If there's only one person in the boon area and the Plague/Myers does not have any other target nearby, why would they slug at all to begin with?
Oni's not going to stick around in the same spot for any amount of time either, since his snowball is specifically also tied to mobility. Plague might stick around, but then she can also easily re-down people if they get up. It might be decent against Myers, but if he gets multiple downs off the same stalk, your team is still in a bad position even if one manages to get up.
And all of this ultimately just turns an immediate win for the killer into merely extremely high pressure for the killer. And that's IF you're up against any of these four and they don't counterplay it. If you're up against anyone else, the perk's a dead slot.
It's only a true problem for the twins. And everything is a problem for the twins, so that's not a good reference point.
1 -
Can we get some re-placable Hexes too then, mr killer main? Most of them have no bite to them either...
1 -
Goddamn dude, a third thread to hassle me on?
Anyway, replaceable hexes would obviously be too strong for the majority of them, because the majority of them are much stronger (and stronger in a more direct way) than boons. This is clearly how the mechanic is intended to function, it's obviously a false equivalence.
Instadowns and moris, for instance, are a much more direct threat to survivors than blocked scratch marks in a limited area are for killer. Inability to use pallets or windows after a hit or a single vault respectively, that's a way bigger deal than 2% haste in a limited area. Weak hexes are just weak, they're not the fair standard for the whole mechanic.
2 -
Hexes are nuts powerful in comparison to boons.
Conversely, would you be okay with boons being buffed to Hex level powers if they were to be permanently snuffed by the killer?
1 -
This idea will just make the bad boons actually unusable and not effect smartly placed COH that much
0 -
Stop being wrong about everything and I wont have to challenge you. And no, it wouldnt be too strong as it isnt too strong the first time, it wont be too strong at any other time either. Personally I never bring hexes because they tend to get wiped in the first 3 minutes of the game. I would say two minutes but generally speaking the survivors are busy rushing two gens at that point of the game.
1 -
I'd wager it'd also delete CoH from viability. Why take a perk that requires 14 seconds to set up and can just be permanently disabled if the killer finds a very loud, very bright totem, when there's other healing perks that allow you to pull similar feats?
2 -
After reading your reply and thinking about it some more, yea, you're probably right, COH probably wouldn't survive this change as well.
1 -
You're telling me the ability to re-place Blood Favour or Devour Hope or old, pre-nerf Ruin wouldn't be too strong? We used to have that mechanic, in a way, with old Undying. It was changed for good reason.
Hexes being weak has very little to do with boons. Hexes are weak because they're just too easy to find on a lot of maps. That is, of course, entirely irrelevant to the topic of boons, but there it is anyway.
3 -
Exactly, so what is the problem with placing them back?
0 -
Just went over that.
If hexes as a perk class need help, and I would say they do, the solution is not to try and force them to work like boons. They're not the same mechanic, what works for one doesn't work for the other.
1 -
Currently they arent the same mechanic, my proposal to make it the same. I say it does work, would be nice to actually reach the point where they work at their max potential for once... Your opinion isn't the end-all and be-all you seem to think it is.
1 -
Well, not quite, you're proposing giving them one element of boons. Unless you're also suggesting the killer must manually place them over the course of fourteen seconds, only gain their effects in a limited radius, and is forced to stack all of them on the same totem?
1 -
Nope, just the ability to place them back. Kinda annoying to lose 1/4 of your perks in the first 10 seconds of the game because a survivor spawned on top of it when facing up to 16 perks... 14 second placement is reasonable for a 4-man squad, killer is solo so 1/4th of that. I'll round it up to 4 seconds.
0 -
Then you're not proposing making them actually similar to boons, which means this won't work. It's just giving killers the ability to keep hexes up almost constantly- at best, that's old Undying, which was changed for a reason.
Losing your hexes in ten seconds sucks. This isn't the answer.
1 -
Then lets hear you come up with a suggestion to improve the situation because you arent helping. You are, in fact, being every bit as detrimental to killers as the survivors are on this forum. How would you fix them because there is no point in running hexes currently and all that you say is "no that wouldnt work" for frankly bogus reasons while pretending to have an interest in the killer cause.
All I hear from you is negativity about people's suggestions to give killers a break for once after suffering nerf after nerf after nerf, the vast majority of killers are completely unusable or at the very least not viable. What is your suggestion? Keeping them as-is means people will use them exactly once and then never again as for as much potential they have, that potential never comes to fruition.
1 -
This isn't a thread about hexes, which is why I was only directly responding to your arguments. However, I'll answer anyway, because I have actually thought about how to help hexes out.
So, there are two main ideas. Either would somewhat work on their own, but I think both should be implemented together.
The first is that totem placements should be randomised again, and then infrequently but regularly randomised going forward. This would mean experienced survivors would have to actually look for totems again, and incentivise maybe bringing some totem-hunting perks to do so- and it'd also mean that bare minimum your chances of an instant cleanse go down.
The second is more impactful, and if they did only do one, it should be this one. I think hexes should only light up a totem when they've actually done something. Ruin, purely as an example because I know it sucks, should light up only when it actually regresses something. Devour, when it gains a token. Blood Favour, when it blocks a pallet. The only sticking point is Haunted Grounds since it wouldn't have an activation trigger, but I'm pretty sure the devs could think of something there.
Obviously, some hexes are just bad and need their own help, but this would help the actually good hexes not be instantly cleansed and therefore be useless.
1 -
Should be risk & reward, not reward, relight, reward.
2 -
Simplest idea is the activation trigger for the "trap" totems like HG, Retribution, and Undying be "any other totem activates".
In your example, Ruin wouldn't light up until something causes its regression to trigger. Once it does, Haunted Ground lights up, as well, so 3 totems light up and once instead of 1.
0 -
The problem there is, what if you don't have any other hexes? I suppose you could just default to "it's lit from the start" and accept that you're just worse off for it, that'd be acceptable ish.
The other two do have an activation trigger, though. Retribution makes you Oblivious when fiddling with a totem, and Undying reveals your aura when walking by a dull, so those two are set.
0 -
Maybe make it "this perk activates 60 seconds after the match has begun if its activation is not otherwise triggered"
1