So why is dead hard allowed to be meta for 6 years?

But certain killer perks aren't?

Genuine question that I would love to know the answer too. Dead hard stays meta for years and years in a row, but certain killer perks become meta for months and then get butchered, or the ones that were meta for years have already been butchered...

But dead hard can stay? Even while it's vastly the most picked survivor perk by far? If not top 3.

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Comments

  • duygu
    duygu Member Posts: 333

    i think dead hard cannot be nerfed without changing it completely. the rework, while some will call it a nerf and some a buff, kept the main ability of the perk (to counter killers on demand) as that is what makes the perk what it is, and that ability is fundamentally too strong (and inarguably a lot more fun than something braindead like overcome), which is why it's still meta and very popular.

  • Bombaclatt
    Bombaclatt Member Posts: 32

    Dead hard is super strong I agree. But I also think that it’s a touch to the game. Yes bla bla bla the killer shouldn’t be afraid of the survivors and all that. but have you seen the newest killer? It’s literally a survivor (nea) with a mask. How can survivors be scared of that.


    Jokes aside yes the perk is strong, probably way too strong for some killers (not all). But it’s hard nerfing it since there isn’t alot you can do. They already took away the most hated thing about it, the way survivors got distance with it. And instead they added a free hitburst but at the cost of you having to mend/have a very dark screen for the rest of the chase. Not alot of people realize that it works as a slowdown for gens. The mending is 15 seconds? (correct me if I’m wrong) where as if you leave the survivor after they deadhard pr they get away they still have to mend. And if dead hard is that big of a problem for you then I assume you get deadharded multiple times per match so you can add those seconds up and see that it is helping you in some way.


    Eruption was worse then deadhard because it completely ######### over soloq people. And if you’ve not realized BHVR is trying to close the gap between swf and soloq so the change was needed. Now the change (nerf) I agree was a little over the top but it is healthier for the game this way. We’ll have to see until the next time they show us the kill rates for killers to know if it did a large impact or not.


    Also do you killermains actually like to kick gens over and over? I know it’s super hard to win without bla bla bla. Just a genuine question. I can’t see any fun in kicking gens all game

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 5,445

    Because they only introduced perk overhauls several months ago. They told us that it would now become a regular thing. So yeah, be prepared now for perks to be more frequently reworked. And tbf to them, they did nerf DH several months back and made it harder for its users to get value from. So it's not like they haven't acknowledged the perk or attempted to make it less appealing.

  • HexSendHelp
    HexSendHelp Member Posts: 48

    Idek care that much about it, but like... if killer perks are going to be butchered for being meta for a few months... surely survivors should get the same treatment? especially when all of the killer perks to be butchered have been gen perks... Like are we just going to keep nerfing every gen perk until survivors having a free sign at every gen saying "go right ahead" and then killers finally get their ability to kick gens completely removed? Like what's the point.

  • CatnipLove
    CatnipLove Member Posts: 1,006

    Can I offer to remove dead hard and in exchange NOED also gets set on fire? Getting to 5 gens with two people left and then getting smacked by a comeback mechanic is brutal.

    I can see why Killers don't like dead hard. I don't use the perk so it wouldn't really matter how it was changed, but I don't know how much harder it can be nerfed. When they nerf the perk it just becomes more useless to lower skilled players, whilst still being great for more skilled ones. The nerfs harm the wrong players.

    You could try to find a way to nerf it further, but I think Killer players don't want anything that grants a third health state in general. The only thing that will be satisfactory would be a total rework.

    I'm more on the side of buffing meh perks so there's more diversity.

  • Tostapane
    Tostapane Member Posts: 1,619

    no since they took already a similar perk for killers (Eruption)... if you want to take out noed then you should have erased it alongside adrenaline imo, but still with the actual genspeed noed is a necessity most of the times (also people NEED to learn that besides generators, other objectives exist as well)

  • kk602
    kk602 Member Posts: 17
    edited February 2023

    The current killer play is overwhelmingly stressful

    [Dead Hard] is too strong and the killer win rate is low

    It's very stressful.

    I felt that it needed adjustment, such as being able to use it only once in a position match.

  • Bwsted
    Bwsted Member Posts: 3,452

    We don't have data on usage for all years afaik. Considering that DH didn't work for at least 4 of those 6 years, I don't even know why survivors were running it. Maybe they liked getting exhausted on the floor.

    It became really hard meta only a year or so before they put validation on it, because by then it was well understood that it should've been used for distance primarily. And then it's been reworked. If the rework was insufficient they'll do something again, but I think they'll probably tweak the lesser used exhaustion perks instead.

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,439

    I can play around dh all day. But that's the issue, playing around it all the time is monotonous. Any other game and it would have been gutted for the sake of it, for half a year at least.

  • Bwsted
    Bwsted Member Posts: 3,452

    I remember those figures, but unfortunately that's aggregate data, not by year, at least for the first table. The second one aligns with what I said.

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 16,060

    It did not eat Killer Powers. If you got a "Hit" and saw Blood while the Survivor used DH, this was a "Hit" you should not have gotten in the first place, but which you got, because DH was bugged before.

  • Green_Sliche
    Green_Sliche Member Posts: 635

    Short cooldown and no real penalty of using this perk ( deep wound is barely a penalty here ) is the reason why this perk is still so commonly picked despite being ''nerfed'' from 1 second to 0.5. What it needs is either longer cooldown or some kind of penalty other than deep wound that should apply to survivor if dead hard protected from the down ( like hindered status or sloppy butcher effect ). It's essentially a third health state with 0 drawback that can be reused again and again. It's no wonder this perk is still so popular.

    As for why it is not getting nerfed properly - devs are very reluctant when it comes to nerfing survivor perks. They do slight nerfs if there's huge complain resonance from either of sides and since there isn't enough reaction from killer players ( obviously survivors won't complain here ) they just keep things as is. In other words - there's not enough noise to pay attention to.

  • jajay119
    jajay119 Member Posts: 992
    edited February 2023

    Because BHVR clearly have no idea how to change many perks appropriately. I'm a survivor main and even I, who hated Eruption, thought it was changed poorly.

  • GoodBoyKaru
    GoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 22,762

    God forbid bhvr having learned from past mistakes and now deciding to act on overwhelming things within half a year instead of 6.

    Stop making it a survivor vs killer thing and be glad they've upped their response time from literally half a decade to half a year.

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,531

    It’s still a net nerf for the perk

    I feel like people forgot how stupid old dead hard was

  • MrPeanutbutter
    MrPeanutbutter Member Posts: 1,586

    It’s very simple. BHVR knows where their revenue comes from. A good portion will go away if they weaken this perk too much.

  • Science_Guy
    Science_Guy Member Posts: 2,004

    what even is that chart. The x axis in particular... It can't be measuring over time total because COH is on it from the beginning to the end.

    Anyway, DH was inconsistent trash before multiple rounds of Hit Validations fixed it, which came after YEARS of 'exhausted on the ground'. No **** BHVR never got around to nerfing a perk that literally didn't even work half the time.

  • I remember a streamer saying it wasn't until MMR hitting that DH became meta.

    I also remember a time where it was Balanced Landing on Haddonfield meta that everyone was complaining about which led to the stagger nerf of Balanced.

  • KingFieldShipper
    KingFieldShipper Member Posts: 612

    the chart is usage % of the perks (y-axis) in a particular mmr (x-axis) and the thickness of the lines are based on the amount of matches played in that mmr (so the thicker = more data)

  • Science_Guy
    Science_Guy Member Posts: 2,004

    I would have never realized the X-Axis was showing MMR. Thanks.

  • HexSendHelp
    HexSendHelp Member Posts: 48

    Except... they haven't. Look at how fast eruption got killed, and yet I've seen no mention and no nerf to dead hard after YEARS.

  • Roaroftime
    Roaroftime Member Posts: 420

    I see no killers respecting the meta shake up, all bringing four slow down perks despite their entire base kit buff. Survivors on the other hand I see a mixture of builds and dead hard never works for my teams anyway, the killer just waits it out (not hard so stop complaining?)... If anyone needs a meta shake up it's killers but thankfully the dev's are nerfing eruption and pain res as they've clearly noticed how the meta shake up didn't seem to apply to killers.

  • ratcoffee
    ratcoffee Member Posts: 1,363

    just so you know, dead hard no longer gives the survivor a burst of speed automatically, so it can't be used for distance to get to a pallet or window.

    also, if you get hit with it, you go into deep wounds and have to spend extra time mending, so it works as a tiny bit of passive slowdown that way (although admittedly, not much).

    on top of that, it doesn't work while already in deep wounds, so if you play a killer that inflicts deep wounds or with an item that does the same, it makes dead hard useless

    finally, it doesn't grant invulnarability, so it can't be used to bypass doctor's shocks or trappers traps (among other things) so those killers have a little more counterplay to DH

    just thought you might want to know those changes were made, since you (incorrectly) seem to think that dead hard hasn't gotten any nerfs since its creataion

  • Brimp
    Brimp Member Posts: 2,901

    Yeah but its still extremely stupid. Sure its a true 50/50 against m1's now but in most if not all cases against m2's its just a net buff and not all m2's are like wesker and blight.

  • HexSendHelp
    HexSendHelp Member Posts: 48

    Oh no it's gotten nerfs. But absolutely no nerfs to actually remove it from the meta. It's still hard meta, it's still boring to play against, and it's still in 80% of people's loadouts for survivors. It's boring asf and having to worry about ANOTHER health state people just have at the click of a button constantly.

  • HexSendHelp
    HexSendHelp Member Posts: 48

    "Mixture of builds" for survivor LMFAOOOOOOOOOO

    Yea dead hard every game, stacked asf medkits every game, BNP every other game, so mixed.

    Also "Just wait it out LOOOOOL" Ok and just wait eruption out right????

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,531

    Kinda true but it was already good against m2’s. Now it gives the speed burst but against nurse and blight they don’t care

    It does hurt killers like pig but tbh old dead hard was still worse due to the distance aspect being more versatile and how it had 0 risk

  • AverageKateMain
    AverageKateMain Member Posts: 949

    Nah I have to use Dragon Ball terms for this one. Nea and Kris Jenner did a fusion dance and this was the result

  • AverageKateMain
    AverageKateMain Member Posts: 949

    Trading DH for Noed is a bad trade. Noed isn't even good and usually gets cleaned immediately upon activation. A fair trade would be Eruption

  • Rickprado
    Rickprado Member Posts: 561
    edited February 2023

    For me, the problem with DH its the validation, that let survivors greed pallets/loops, making killers waiting to survs DH or risk a hit and maybe prolong the chase for a couple of time. I don't think they will go back in validation, but it created an issue.

    I understand that in some instances DH is more balanced than before the nerf, but it still feel like a frustanting perk to face, specially when you wait for 10s+ and the surv still get the boost.

    Post edited by Rickprado on
  • Dbdfan398
    Dbdfan398 Member Posts: 184

    DH is probably the most agitating perk in the game. I can outplay someone, they hit E and I need to keep chasing.

    I have finally hit good survivors before, only for them to DH and now the chase is extended by a long time cause of that 1 perk.


    Yes I know you can drop chase, thats not my point.

  • Dbdfan398
    Dbdfan398 Member Posts: 184

    Dont talk to me about what killers find fun.

    I have had many games where a survivor hides so much, and just slams the gens out I literally dont see them until theyre going out the exit gates. Is doing gens so much fun youd rather not even SEE the killer.

  • CatnipLove
    CatnipLove Member Posts: 1,006

    Yeah it's probably not a great trade. But after several matches of NOED and never being able to find the Hex totem I'm getting desperate lmao

  • Mondhirsch
    Mondhirsch Member Posts: 228

    Sprint Burst is way stronger than Dead Hard.

    The reason why DH is seen more than Sprint Burst is just the fact that DH is more fun to use than Sprint Burst.

    As a Survivor you don't get much buttons to use but DH gives you another one to interact with the game and mindgame the Killer. That leads to fun.

  • TigerSnake
    TigerSnake Member Posts: 531

    On top of all that, wasn’t Dead Harding through a Trapper’s trap not a thing till hit validation?

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,726

    To answer the why question: let's presume Dead Hard is broken, a clearly superior perk, and being taken by the majority of survivors (all of that is debatable, but let's go with it). Now say we we cut dead hard or make it useless, what happens? The game's balance wildly swings. If there is a perk being used that much by survivors and you couldn't just make a slight adjustment to killers to keep balance, it would have to be pretty significant.

    As for people talking about eruption: one thing being missed is that a major issue with the perk is that it was devastating again soloQ, and barely a nuisance against SWF.

  • Thusly_Boned
    Thusly_Boned Member Posts: 2,893

    It was indeed nerfed (some say it was buffed, but that's utter nonsense), but it is still quite strong.

    There are two problems:

    1. As others have said, there's no way to nerf it hard enough to boot it from the meta without changing it completely
    2. BHVR doesn't seem to have the ability to appropriately nerf perks; it's either the feather duster or the sledgehammer with these people

    It isn't rage inducingly OP like it was before, but it's still annoying, and prevalent. That said, I don't particularly care that it's still meta.

  • Nos37
    Nos37 Member Posts: 4,142
    edited February 2023

    Eruption got nerfed because it unfairly affected solo queue. I get it.

    But then why didn't they just have it affect anyone who repaired a generator in the last 10 seconds so that SWF can't easily use comms to broadcast the incoming Eruption and avoid it altogether?

  • Emoba
    Emoba Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 514
    edited February 2023

    It objectively has been nerfed, yes. You have goldfish memory or simply are dishonest if you can't remember the degeneracy that OG DH allowed.

  • Basement_Bubba420
    Basement_Bubba420 Member Posts: 397

    DH has been problematic since its inception.

    Originally it provided the following.

    1. 4.2m of distance in .5 seconds. That's an extra 2m over normal speed.
    2. No collision (run through killer swing)
    3. Invulnerability
    4. Activatable on demand
    5. Low CD. Practically useable in every chase.

    The rework provides the following.

    1. Invulnerability
    2. A speed boost if hit
    3. Activatable on demand.
    4. Low CD. Practically useable in every chase.

    So overall, a nerf to it's functionality and major nerf (complete negation) of distance gained. It's still problematic because of the amount of utility it has. SB requires proper management and is mostly effective in dead zones, tiles can reduce the distance gained because of how you have to path. Lithe/BL require setup. Smash Hit requires a stun. Overcome is similar to dead hard in utility, just slightly harder to use as it requires you to in a healthy state so a bit more setup.

    So based on this is seems like DH is still the best exhaustion perk in terms of utility and functionality. Perhaps it should be nerfed so that if the player misses the timing, or isn't using it explicitly to avoid a hit (i.e. they're using just to gain distance to tile) they are penalized.

    An example would be:

    1. Objects (pallets, vaults, etc) are uninteractable while using DH and for 1 second after. No more getting to pallet for safety. You must dodge the hit.
    2. Hinderance if no hit is successfully deflected.
    3. Longer exhaustion time.
    4. Deep wounds triggers regardless of whether or not you take the hit.

    The nerf could encompass all of these or some of these changes. I do think DH could take a hit to its utility and still be viable and is the best way to keep the essence of the perk. My opinion is that #1 is the best solution.

  • GoodBoyKaru
    GoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 22,762

    Tbh I don't think I'd mind if they took the sledgehammer approach to Dead Hard, as long as they take a look at Sprint Burst whilst they're at it (because a Sprint Burst meta would be so unbelievably boring)

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,685

    I want dead hard nerfed with the same energy and intensity as what BHVR did to eruption. I want the perk buried in the ground, and have it be nerfed so badly that everyone is on the same page that it's terrible.

    We were promised a meta shakeup, and dead hard is by far the most complained about survivor perk. Just bury the perk, and adjust the kill rate if it needs to be.

  • Brimp
    Brimp Member Posts: 2,901

    Yeah but the "skill factor" a lot of people claim it has is also false.

  • HexSendHelp
    HexSendHelp Member Posts: 48
    edited February 2023

    And wow it's still hard meta, so evidently, the nerf didn't do jack all.

  • GoodBoyKaru
    GoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 22,762

    The most recent useage stat I've seen thrown around is ~40%. Don't ask me where people got it from, I couldn't tell you, and even if I could I could probably point out some glaring issues with it.

    But, if true (and anacdotally it feels about correct), that 40% is substantially better than the over 75% it was pre-nerf.

    Moreover, considering the best alternatives for survivors were also nerfed, and very few perks were buffed to the required strength... what did you expect? Of course the perk that was hit the least hard would stay meta, but it is undeniably weaker now than it's ever been (and I swear, half of these forums don't remember the E to Outplay DH for distance bullshit we endured for years because a single person using DH4D was so much more infuriating than 4 of current DH).