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Eruption vs. Dead Hard
Eruption : Rewards the killer for playing GOOD and getting downs. Survivors are incapacitated for 25 seconds. Uncounterable by solo players.
Dead Hard : Rewards survivors for playing BAD by providing them a second chance. Extends chases by 1-2 minutes or more. Uncounterable when used near pallets.
Yet dead hard stays untouched while Eruption gets nerfed. Make it make sense instead of typing "uS vs. tHeM" please.
Comments
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Both perks are horrible. Both shouldn't stay like this.
DH needs a complete rework from the ground up or a nerf that makes it useless. It has been 6 years. That should be more than enough of this perk ruling DBD.
Eruption would be fine if it would only stop a survivor from working on a gen imo.
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Tbh Behavior destroying a majority of their player base's favourite toy (DH) would be a bad business decision. Who's gonna buy all those Feng skins if they destroy Dead Hard?
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You can nerf DH into the ground for all I care, but kicking 3 gens like a bot and not chasing for more than 10 sec until the resources in the area are depleted and you'll get the down inevitably, it's a bit of a generous standard for playing 'good'. It makes the tutorial bot look like HAL 9000.
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I would say they both require skill as DH has specific timing and Eruption still requires you to actually down survivors to get value which takes skill. I’d say they’re both heavily game swinging. DH changes the outcome of games at least as much as Eruption does in my opinion if not probably even more.
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If the survivor is playing bad, they won't be able to land a successful Dead Hard
change my mind
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Holy #########, if you are having 2 minute chases you need to STOP CHASING THEM
Also, Eruption hits SWF just as often. Even tourny squads can get hit by it.
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We don't know if bHVR is going to address Dead Hard in next Mid Chapter. The Big Summer Perk Patch.
I hope they do, even though you may feel they gave Survivor Priority to Eruption with Incapacitated. I too think its a bit unfair.
Like a Survivor can use Dead Hard to undo a 25sec chase, but a Killer isnt allowed to prevent progression/healing for 25sec?
Just make sure you voice you concerns/ complaints to bHVR and they will do something hopefully.
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We might get a perk rebalance in the next midchapter after skull merchant
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That didn’t stop them from nerfing all the survivor perks and I’m not even going to list them all because I know your not going to listen your just going to keep stating they don’t care about us killers
Us Vs Them at its finest
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I dont think bHVR will change DH outside of big Patches. Cause the community will explode if they touch DH again.
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To echo what others have said, we typically hold perk updates for Mid-Chapters, not Chapter releases. Eruption was originally planned for the following Mid-Chapter but was bumped up due to the amount of feedback it was getting. We found just enough time to squeeze it in to an earlier update. Dead Hard, by comparison, has become a hot topic somewhat more recently. Keep in mind our updates are planned and worked on months in advance, so it can take some time before things that are 'hot topics' see changes.
That said, I cannot confirm whether or not Dead Hard will be changed, but by no means are we ignoring the discussions about it. Keep 'em coming.
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Reward killers for playing GOOD mean kicking gens as brainless bots who refuse to chase, ok.
Besides, if it takes you two minutes to chase a survivor who has used dh correctly, you deserve no further response
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Is the idea true that Pro Killer suggestions are fewer because there are more Survivor players in the Community?
I heard that idea a lot lately relating to this, but I'm pretty confident in the work of the Community Managers to sift through it all.
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More rewards bad players to kick gens by stalling matches to no end.
Rose tinted glasses are strong.
Seeing clips of DH plays are exciting, blood boiling for the killer.
Being incapacitated is exciting for no one.
Also, if you are a bad player with DH, he is basically a free kill, he probably can't use it well to begin.
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i stg half of the killer players on this website think DH activates whenever you take a hit while injured instead of having to be manually activated. you have to hit a 0.5 second timing window, people
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well i guess dh next on the chopping block. It simply getting to much heat. sign...i really hope survivors get better anti tunnel stuff in exchange
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if the incapacitated was removed from eruption then DH has to be nerfed as well.. I don't think DH has any business in the game anymore either change the meta really or don't and keep the game in the current stale 3 gen gameplay they are designing new killers around.
The choice is yours devs.
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Dead hard has been meta since from the start.
Eruption has been meta since the last Overcharge buff.
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That's a very biased way of viewing Eruption. If you view DH as rewarding failure, you absolutely have to acknowledge that Eruption did the same by allowing killers to go on ridiculous chases and lose nothing. It didn't "let you have chases". It let killers have really bad chases and still win. It needed to go.
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no #########, and if the killer is bad, they wont be able to win.
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Dead Hard isn't 'untouched', people just have an incredibly short memory. It was nerfed in 6.1.0 perk balance patch in July last year.
In fact, it was changed to specifically remove the 'dead hard for distance' burst of speed on activation that everyone and their dog was complaining about at that time. (For the record, rightfully so, as old dead hard was ridiculous).
But the devs changed exactly what people complained about then. The preemptive burst of speed as it used to be was targeted and deleted. You now only get any value out of the perk if latency allows you to time it correctly within a half second window.
People are angry now because the devs did exactly what people asked for, but it isn't what they wanted.
Even if dead hard were deleted, people would just complain about 99% Sprint burst instead when they get outplayed by that.
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I don’t understand why Dead Hard has only recently been considered a hot topic.
Does hot topic require for people to flood these forums with post after post about dead hard? Because dead hard has been the most complained about killer perk for a while on these forums, it just hasn’t had a flood of posts until recently.
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Dead Hard is a more 'recent' complaint because it became apparent that the devs were going to nerf Eruption. (Seen a couple dead hard vs Eruption posts recently?)
Any time anything changes for either killers or survivors, there's an outcry to make an equivalent change to the other. I'm not sure if it's a 'to keep things fair' reaction, or if it's just that people don't like any balance changes whatever. But the reasoning isn't as important as that it's an obvious community reaction to change.
Dead Hard was nerfed in July, and for a couple months the general sentiment online was anything from 'good riddance' to 'git gud, adapt'. (We'll come back that one).
And just like it took several months for Eruption to become meta, it took a while for people to realize that dead hard could still be useful.
So now it's December ish, 5 months after the big 6.1.0 balance patch, Knight just released with Nowhere to Hide to cap off the gen kick meta quartet, and people started really harping on Eruption being overtuned and incapacitation being oppressive.
Also in December, survivors have had enough time to fully adapt to the new perks from 6.1, and dead hard is back on the menu for a lot of people. Once it became obvious Eruption is being targeted, and the devs confirmed a change was likely, it very quickly turned to playing the 'dead hard is op' card.
Whether dead hard needs another pass is a different discussion, but the community has the impression that complaining gets things nerfed. And if someone is under the impression that loudly complaining is the only reason Eruption got nerfed, then by all means it's time to complain as loudly as possible so devs address your frustrations too.
So that's why the discussion is 'recent'.
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All of this is exactly what I’ve witnessed. Anytime a widely loved perk from one side gets nerfed, the other side suddenly wants a nerf of a perk that they don’t like going against. It’s like children who see one kid get an ice cream cone so they need an ice cream cone. Doesn’t matter if the change was made to make the game more fair, or balance out an issue, one side got something so now the other side needs something.
Dead hard took a huge hit last summer and as was mentioned the killer refrain was “oh well adapt!” Survivors basically did just that, adapted to the new perk and still found a way to make it useful so now killers want it nerfed again because it still prevents them from easy wins when used in the right hands. Which brings me to my next point:
Dead hard takes actual skill to use. One of my friends I play with runs dead hard religiously and out of 10 matches, they only get any value out of DH in maybe 1 match because you literally have to be able to time it just right. And even IF you time it just right, if the killer has major lag on their end, any latency issues, uses a VPN whatever… it affects their ability to time the perk and it’s useless.
Unless every survivor who runs DH is totally cracked with it, it’s not getting the same value across all players, like some are making it out to be. Every survivor can’t just equip dead hard and get an extra hit out of it just like that. I don’t even run it for that reason because I don’t have the patience to try and learn how to time it perfectly down to a half second.
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The recent flood of posts about it happened after the eruption nerf was announced. Because an OP killer perk was getting nerfed, it was an opportunity to go after the most used survivor perk to try and get that removed.
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The problem is that the complaints on these forums aren't 50/50 between both roles. It is far easier for these forums to get flooded with anti-killer posts than it is to get flooded with anti-survivor posts. Dead hard is been the most complained about killer perk for far longer than the eruption nerf announcement, but it just never got the massive flood of posts because it's just so much harder for anti-survivor posts to gain traction on these forums.
Anti survivor-posts shouldn't need to reach the flood level that anti-killer posts get, in order to be considered a "hot topic". What really happened is we got a survivor HUD, an additional feature added to the survivor HUD, a roadmap discussing further improvements for survivors, and a eruption nerf.... and all of that combined finally pushed people over the edge to start flooding the forums with anti dead hard posts.
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Personally, I think it's the type of nerfs that happened and how strong a perk stays. So look at dead hard and eruption. DH was nerfed pretty hard, yes but it has stayed really strong and is still the number one used perk. Meanwhile, eruption basely got completely gutted and kinda made useless for most killers. The only killers who may get value out of new eruptions will be the ones who like slugging a lot and are very fast bc it gives info when most killers don't even need it. Why do I care about seeing auras for 10 to 12s right after I down someone? By the time I hook the down survivor, that info is outdated and useless, and 9 out 10 times that gen that just went boom will most likely be finished in my face after I did hooking and getting over there with most killers.
BVHR didn't have to turn eruption into a new info perk, they could have done what most ppl asked for...remove the incap and block that gen for 25 secs. They took the number one killer perk(yes I agree it was overpowered and needed a nerf I'm not arguing that fact) and made it into a perk that will only be useful to those who like slugging as a high-speed killer(killers who really do need that type perk.) I only wish eruption got the DH treatment where it was made fairer but stayed as a strong perk.
Also in the dev blog they said that one of the issues with the eruption was how it didn't evenly affect solos and swfs but the nerf they gave it did nothing to fix that issue. The new eruption will still only affect soloQ survivors while swf can just easily dodge it most of the time. This means eruption will continue to do barely anything against swf but now it won't really do much against solo either.
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In my opinion it's hard to call Eruption like it is for the remaining days "uncounterable" as solo player. Of course there are situations, where you get hit by it, but especially with the new information i get as a survivorand after noticing what killer i am going against, it is possible to avoid some eruption hits.
And some killers do have some sounds, where you just could get off the gen for a few seconds. For example if you see a injured survivor and hear a nurse blinking, if you see someone getting trapped, spirits phasewalk, wraiths bell or deathslingers shots.
Yeah Eruption has been strong, but by far not overpowered. Especially if you think about the total regression compared to what a killer has to do for it. Going to a gen, giving the survivor time to run away, because you need to kick the gen. Right after the chase, where the killer has to get rid of 2-3 health states, just to make the kicked gen(s) lose 10% in an instant and 6,25% over time. The reason why i loved using eruption is, because it didnt feel like my regression is doing nothing. There are so many times where i use pain res and because of all these big maps i just barely notice the regression of 15% just because repair speed is fast imo.
I mean eruption makes the gen regressing for 16,25%...this is one survivor working for 16,25 seconds at a gen. and with two its barely the half. But because of the incapacitated status i had the possibility to get the hook and still go for the effected gen.
I don't like the rework of it, although i am happy they removed the 10% current progress back to total progress. But i can't really see the advantage of seeing the survs auras for 10 seconds, because of following reasons :
- I already saw if a survivor got hit by eruption, because of their screams and i had the possibilty to relax a bit, because i knew there are some people incapacitated
- I see the aura of the survs for 10 seconds after i downed someone...so what options do i have? Slugging the downed surv, just to make use of my 10 seconds and go for another survivor? Yeah will definitely be an option the moment unbreakable becomes basekit. Or i could use these 10 seconds of aurareading while i carry the downed survivor to a hook, seeing the survs doing the gen(s). Yup sounds fun.
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If you're a bad player you're a free kill regardless.
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If a single DH really extends a chase for you by 1-2 minutes AND you still take this chase - just another sign that you really, really struggle with the game and might want to search the reason by yourself and not the game.
Furthermore, DH might cover up a mistake, however, the good players use DH because they know that they can get away with it - not because they made a mistake. It is a really stupid misconception from Killer players that they think DH = mistake. If you can squeeze out that extra Loop or make it to a Window instead of using a Pallet with DH, this is not a mistake.
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Couldn't say it better xD
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Or they realize the complaints are just not real. Sorry, unpopular perhaps, but DH is just fine as it is. The skill required is more than any other killer perk (Waiting for the lists, ofc). The counterplay is there. The issue seems to be killers not getting their down when they feel they should. Its all feels. I dont feel you should be able to down me if I can hit a button in a small window during an exciting and heart pumping moment. Of course one side is going to feel bad about that. Literally part of the game.
Please keep this in mind devs. You gave them what they asked for in the DH nerf. Not enough as you can see. So don't cater again, it'll just keep happening. Really might stop playing killer, its just making it all sour.
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DH wasn’t nerfed, it was changed, but it kept the same level of power. A real nerf severely reduces its uses and has it become weak enough compared to other perks that it actually becomes one of the options instead of remaining the best option. Everybody still running it? Not nerfed.
That said, I’m not at the point where I think DH isn’t in a good spot, but I think it could become more fair. Survivors think it’s fun and skillful and it lost DH4D so I’m mostly happy but my real issue is being forced into playing in a very specific way because everybody ‘could’ have DH.
Do I really have to play a solo mind-game with myself just because a perk exists? That sucks to do for every down constantly. Keep your perk as it is now but give me any kind of visual clue that you’re running DH and I can join you in the mind-game and we can battle it out instead of finding out later that you didn’t have it and I wasted time or you did have it and I wasted time.
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-"DH wasn’t nerfed, it was changed, but it kept the same level of power. A real nerf severely reduces its uses and has it become weak enough compared to other perks that it actually becomes one of the options instead of remaining the best option. Everybody still running it? Not nerfed."
It was nerfed. As much as people think a nerf requires something to be used less, it is not a requirement. It lost a LOT of power, and became harder to time. Literally a nerf. Same level of power? No, less in fact.
-"That said, I’m not at the point where I think DH isn’t in a good spot, but I think it could become more fair. Survivors think it’s fun and skillful and it lost DH4D so I’m mostly happy but my real issue is being forced into playing in a very specific way because everybody ‘could’ have DH."
Well, thats a choice you are making though. I understand its the #1 surv perk, but that should just mean you'll expect it. And it sounds like you do! So... I'm just lost at this point I suppose. I know people who have adapted well, myself included, and all these forums do is toss up some niche examples and say unbalanced! unfair! Not saying this is you, just saying. Its a repeating cycle.
-"Do I really have to play a solo mind-game with myself just because a perk exists? That sucks to do for every down constantly. Keep your perk as it is now but give me any kind of visual clue that you’re running DH and I can join you in the mind-game and we can battle it out instead of finding out later that you didn’t have it and I wasted time or you did have it and I wasted time."
Again, ive never had that headspace. Devs, if killers are literally doing this, that is playing around perks without even knowing if they have them, then please exclude this from decisions. It is, again, a personal choice players are making.
You 'think' they have DH? Then play around it or don't, either way its a guess, like all the other 50/50's the game presents in any given match.
Hope this didn't sound personal to anyone, just thoughts on everything. Likely won't be popular, eh.
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I somewhat agree. But there is a real problem with the current meta gen regression perks by design.
The only genuinely good regression perks left, that don't incentivise gen kicking above all else are Pain Res and Eruption. If the killer can't get a down, Eruption will do nothing. It's bad but not as bad as CoB, Overcharge. Nerfing Eruption will only leave us with Pain Res in that regard. And Pain Res ist getting a shadow nerf in the next patch as well because its synergy with DMS will weaken significantly. I can't blame people for playing 3 gen warriors, when this is the best they can do and it's so heavily incentivised.
No chase should ever take 2 minutes, agreed. But on some maps a killer is happy, if they can end a chase in a bit over 1 minute. Now add DH into the equation and the killer will have to drop chase. Most killers could probably recover from this, if they have strong builds and addons but the next survivor they chase is likely to have DH as well, which overall leads to killers being forced to overcommit to chases. Leave the chase and the next time you find that survivor, they'll be fully healed and have DH again. Don't leave the chase and lose your entire pressure for 1 down. It's a lose-lose situation because someone pressed their E key at the correct time.
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Its crazy how as a no mither gamer, i need dead hard and deserve it more than the average non no mither gamer. And we may suffer for it once again. Id be fine if dead hard only activates if you're broken tbh.
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This explained something to me that literally made me go 'Oooohhhh....' regarding DH and killer perspective. Thank you, Xern.
Is this situation common? That literally painted a picture for me lol.
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We already have atleast 2 DH posts a day and you want to see even more of them? Atleast give us a way to filter them out then for the people that don’t care
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You can’t be surprised however, a survivor QOL roadmap and hud buffs aren’t going to be popular with the killer groups if you don’t also show a roadmap for things killers have been wanting or needing. Mainly just updates on development ideas for some killers who are in limbo like Freddy or Trapper could quell some unrest. Give us a sign that killers are treated with the same amount of care as survivors when it comes to QOL changes or perk changes.
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People really need to watch old gameplay and remember how outrageous Dead Harding for distance was before making threads like this.
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I can only say, that i play both sides equaly (survivor as solo only), and while i struggle with eruption, i never cared much for dh. Did i use matches to it? Sure, but only sometimtes.
I think eruption has way more potential to break the match early on, and there is not so much skill needed from the killer to do it. If a killer uses eruption and chose to tunnel one survivor out, the match is almost done, but drags on, just with no real hope of winning, and it gets boring as hell. (yet, some killer seems rather disappointed if you just run up to them to get hooked. Dont make the game boring, and people dont want to give up)
DH has much less potential to turn the match around early, because that only works if you got a skilled survivor using it anyway. However, since DH can be run by all 4 survivors, it can become really annoying, and in times, just as frustratig as eruption.
So i am rather glad that eruption gets changed, and to me, at the moment, dh is not that urgent.
Also note that i usually run neither eruption nor dh myself (outside of challenges and such)
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The issue now is that it actually gives more distance thanks to the speed boost from getting hit, plus the body phasing you can do with it.
Believe me I had to take a lot of breaks because of old DH (especially DH + COH). But they didn’t nerf it, just changed it. That change made it easier to counter but it also made it harder on killers who already have trouble in chases. Add on the fact that it is easy to heal mending (or heal yourself normally because of medkits) it just gets frustrating to see. Killers don’t have a true parallel to DH in their roster of perks.
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Can we please stop. They will never change dead hard. They did that entire meta shakeup last summer and guess what- both sides are still running the same perks
I don’t think the devs even play this game enough to understand the implications of most of what they do. If they did we wouldn’t still be using nearly the exact same metas in both sides as we were last year when they reworked everything. Dead hard wouldn’t be going strong after six years. People wouldn’t be boycotting the new killer.
Also I gotta be real here, I play a ton Of killer and the only time dead hard costs me a match is when the team is so good they would have won anyway
killers need to be complaining about the damn matchmaking not one single perk you can outplay half the time. I went from a team so bad tonight they did two gens and I had a 4 k to a team so good they did three gens and I still didn’t even have a down.
How the ######### is that fair for either side? It’s not fun curb stomping baby survivors and it’s no wonder people dc or die on hook. And it’s no fun losing so badly I just log off and quit for a week or two
like seriously between the ######### match making and toxic players not being punished Idk the point anymore
I’m used to play with a squad daily. I had to learn killer because they quit. Now I consistently have maybe one fun match out of 10+ then quit for a couple days. Then play a day then quit a week. Then two weeks.
it’s so disheartening to have out so much ######### time in the game to keep hoping it’ll improve again. I don’t want to walk away entirely and feel like I wasted all those hours but seriously it’s just miserable. Both sides like 90% of matches
its absolutely insane to come here to see all this survivor vs killer and deadhard vs eruption crap
go play the other side for like two weeks. You’ll literally hate it and agree with it hem too. Both sides are miserable and complaining constantly and instead addressing game issues that matter it’s always this dumb “us vs them” while the devs just keep rolling out cosmetics instead of fixing hit boxes, making knight 1.5 with this stupid failed predator chapter, releasing survivor perks that encourage tunneling. Nothing is being done about people griefing or dying in hook or dcing.
but yeah two perks (dh and erupt) are the entirety of the games issues right now
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I was responding to your question about dead hard being a 'recent' complaint, as Peanits mentioned in his post. I was assuming you were trying to say that dead hard complaints go back years and that isn't 'recent'.
But you respond to me saying, 'no, it's actually gotten louder more recently than you think'. So now I feel like you're being contrary for the sake of argument.
Complaining about dead hard absolutely died down around the time of the nerf, then bubbled back up again later. It doesn't matter to the point if we agree on the reasons why dead hard is complained about right now.
The 'recently' in Peanits post refers to 'since the 6.1.0 nerf', which oddly, we seem to agree on.
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Yeah, we still have absolutely zero information on whether or not BHVR is even considering giving killer quality of life changes or accessibility changes. The only thing killers were promised was that the kill rate would be adjusted, if that is necessary, which means that the survivor player experience is important, but killers are just reduced to their kill rate %.
Even look at the buffs killers got during the meta shakeup. It's like they were designed specifically to move the kill rate, without helping the killer player experience at all. I've seen zero people say things like "it feels better playing killer when we break pallets ever so slightly faster".
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There was still a large period of time, after the meta shakeup, but before the eruption nerf announcement, where dead hard was the most complained about perk.
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Sry but what? DH lost a LOT of its power? Are you serious?
Lets just see, what we have lost and what we have now with the DH change
Lost:
- getting some distance with the activation to extend the loop
- Avoiding a hit without the need to mend afterwards
- avoiding a hit without gifting the killer a stack (remember me, stbfl ...)
- unable to use, when deep wounded
Got:
- extending the loop/chase anywhere, so you can run to another loop (great if you are in a dead zone)
- bodyblocking is even stronger because the killer has to hit a surv three times
- noed/devour hope gets countered, great to use against killers like Bubba or Billy (running into chainsaw to get a free sb)
- Trickster got a lot weaker because you just need to time DH the Bladecounter is back to 0
- losing more stacks of stbfl if you want to down the obsession
These are just the points, which came into my mind just now and if there isn't any big mistake, i'd say the biggest lose is the fact you cant use dh if you are deep wounded. But in exchange, if you can use DH, you can use it anytime you want and if the mindgame works, you have a bigger value with the sb you get.
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How is it fair to say that eruption rewards killers for playing good when you are getting a MASSIVE reward (40sec of gen time) while being uncounterable with laughable CD and the measly cost of 1.8sec of kick time.
I am not saying Dead Hard is not strong but at least you need to time a 0.5sec effect that it is not always as easy as people think.
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Dead Hard does not need a nerf. It hasn't needed a nerf since its rework.
This is the classic 'well Eruption got nerfed, so DH should too'. Like have some objectivity for the game.
Eruption was completely uncounterable in solo play, which is the majority of players. It won you games you really should have lost or tied in. 1 perk that changes the outcome of the match that much w/ little to nothing survivors can do? Yea makes sense.
DH may extend a chase or get you safety but its counterable. There are workarounds, the perk doesn't just win you matches out of the blue. There is no guarantee to DH, its a very inconsistent perk but its great when it works.
I'd also argue DH takes more skill to pull off than ...hitting a gen and getting into a chase with someone who you know you'll down very quickly b/c lack of pallets. But thats neither here nor there.
My point is; Eruption deserved the gut. Just b/c you're angry about that doesn't = 'nerf DH then >:('.
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