General Discussions
General Discussions
Reminder: SBMM made the game worse. Linked video explaining why
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orkzXTuIzwU
Key points:
- MMR soft cap is incredibly easy to hit
- MMR player pools are too broad to get consistently fair matches
- Winning matches with 1 killer raises MMR for all other killers
- Competitive mindset encouraged by MMR system makes matches more unfun
Comments
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Reminder: No it didn't.
The old rank match making was no better, and for some, including myself, it was much worse.
Take off the rose-tinted glasses.
15 -
Old System:
- Easy to hit softcap.
- Rewarded players for playing well, not just escapes/kills.
- Visible to players.
- Didn't encourage people to sweat.
Current System:
- Easy to hit softcap.
- Only rewards players who escape/kill.
- Completely invisible.
- Encourages people to sweat.
There's no doubt. The old system was objectively better. As imperfect as it was.
36 -
The old system raised your MMR even if you didn't win.
The current system is tied to kills/escapes, because that's the win condition. Why would you want your MMR to increase if you're not actually winning?
You could gain pips, because farming BP is the goal for everyone, without actually winning, and get catapulted into high ranks even though you're not winning games.
I was perpetually stuck in high Green/low Purple ranks, because I played for BP, but my games were always miserable SWF bully squads, because Red ranks could only be matched downwards, and I was right on the cusp of Red rank matches. This meant I couldn't progress any further, and all of my matches were sweaty.
Now that I have MMR tied to kills instead of BP, I get much fairer games, because I don't play sweaty.
The current MMR system is supposed to be invisible to players, so that players don't game the system. It doesn't encourage people to sweat at all, because there is no incentive to increasing your MMR. It is not a trophy, it's not a badge of honour to be high MMR, you're not even supposed to see it, it just means you have tougher opponents.
The emblem/pip system is still there as the only tangible reward system. The more people stop caring about their own MMR, the less sweaty everyone would play.
The old system was good for people who played sweaty, because it meant they got matched with lower rank players and got a lot of easy games. (ergo, it was bad for mid-low rank players)
The new system is bad for people who play sweaty, because now they have to face opponents of equal skill. (ergo, it's good for mid-low rank players)
That's the reality, and it's much fairer for it.
Everyone who gave the slightest ######### about their MMR was irrationally desperate to raise it as high as possible in a fit of pure insanity, and now they're stuck in SWF hell where they belong.
Post edited by Seraphor on8 -
- Peanits the other day stated that not many of the player base is at the soft cap.
- Just like Rank Based
- No it doesn't. Every killer has their own MMR. New Killers are set at the average MMR of the other establish killers. You can have your main killer at high MMR and another killer where you only 8 hook at the bottom.
- As long as the game is PvP its competitive. You can have no indication of rank and people will still want to tryhard to escape or 4k.
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The players who liked having 1 inside that big red circle are the ones who prefer the old system.
Somehow publicly being shown at the top in a game is a real worldly accomplishment.
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How many times do the devs have to reiterate that less than 5% of the population is above the softcap before people stop saying the cap is easy to hit? MMR is a relative measurement. You can't have half the players above the cap. It doesn't work that way. You can be matched with players at or near the cap, but it doesn't mean *you* are at the cap. That's a whole different issue with matchmaking.
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if you have no idea how the emblem system is calculated, yes! then you can assume it really rates "playing well" but the reality is that someone who is in the killer's TR (hiding) is rewarded much better than someone who is in the chase for minutes (imagine for hiding you will much more rewarding than being in the chase) and while you're in the chase you obviously can't do gens, you get points IF your mates do gens but that's so little that it doesn't matter, and a lot more if you played well and escaped didn't even get you a pip but sometimes even a d-pip xD great system, so if you have no idea how the emblem system works you might think "yes, the pip system was better" but if you get a know a bit then you will see very clearly that it is even worse than the mm we have right now
I'm in favor of the division between "casual and sweater" anyway, meaning you can go in ranked and or casual (where everyone is matched with everyone else) then the people who like to play Trappers adventure fun with unicorns 5 xD and anyone who really wants a challenge always play ranked (the MMR has to really work for that) all the casuals and streamers don't have the right to get upset, I think they should play casual mode all day long :D
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Play better.
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3 out of your 4 bullet points were problems that not only existed but were also objectively worse under the old ranking systems.
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I'm not going to try and convince you that one system is better than the other. That's ultimately up to you to decide, nobody can tell you how you feel.
HOWEVER, I will fact check those key points.
- The softcap is not easy to hit. We've stated many times that the distribution of players across MMR looks like a bell curve. There's very few people on the extreme low end, a lot near and around the middle, and then very few people on the extreme high end. There aren't many people at or above the softcap. Many people will claim to be there, but this is almost always incorrect. By comparison, it was much easier for people of all skill levels to hit rank 1 under the old system so long as they played enough each month.
- This isn't really the case. The matchmaker starts off very specific and gradually broadens its range the longer you wait for a match. The overwhelming majority of the time you'll be paired against people within a few points of your own rating. Folks who are at one of the extreme ends of the spectrum and playing during off-peak times for their region may have more variance between matches, but there's only so much a matchmaker can do (it can only work with what its got).
- Even if this is the case, the old system did not have any separation between Killers, your rank was shared between all Killers. I would hesitate to say that having some separation is worse than none at all.
- The system exists in a void. You never see it. You aren't rewarded for increasing it. You aren't punished for losing it. It is solely a hidden number to help find you opponents that are similarly skilled. If you decide to play more competitively to increase a number that you'll never see, that's totally fine and you can do so, but the system certainly is not encouraging it anymore than the old system which was actually shown to your before and after every match.
Again, not going to convince you that you should like one more than the other. Everyone wants something different out of matchmaking and nobody's really wrong.
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DBD was the most fun for me when it was completely random assortment. Every month was a complete rank reset and a fresh slate. If you were good you won a lot. If you were bad I imagine you lost a lot. If you had been away from the game for a while you went back to "baby" ranks so you could relearn everything from the ground up if necessary.
The current MMR system feels like a struggle. You run faster and harder to get ahead only to stay in exactly the same place.
It is 100% a worse feeling to play DBD in 2023 compared to say 2016, 2018, and 2021-2022.
You can lose 20 games in a row and nothing changes. You're still in roughly the exact same place and it sucks.
-"The softcap is not easy to hit"
Show us our MMR ratings if we want to see them. Let me be clear here : I am not accusing you or any of the BHVR staff of lying but I have played other games where the staff of that game did in fact lie to the audience. If you show me all the numbers then I can find the truth for myself. There is no chance for deception as everything is right before my eyes. Since you don't want to give me details I can only assume that you are hiding something. What do you have to hide? Show us our numbers if we want to see them. I think you hide MMR for two reasons
- Forum bragging / forum invalidation. People would say things like : I have 2000 MMR so I am right and you have 800 MMR so you know nothing. If this sounds ridiculous it is and the community would not stand for it.
- DBD puts people that should not be playing together way more often than is healthy because it makes for "fast games". Overall the MMR system is designed so that it punishes people who are good but not amazing.
Also I have to disagree about the softcap being easy to hit. Then again I have been playing this game for 6 years so I am in the minority.
-"Even if this is the case, the old system did not have any separation between Killers"
The current system is flawed because if I am above an invisible number I cannot see then all of my killers are set to a higher invisible minimum level where I can never really have appropriate level matches to learn a new killer. Maybe I want to learn Hag? But I can't ever really do that because I will never have time to build fundamental skills against new players who are appropriate matches for having zero knowledge of Hag.
Learning against an opponent requires a minimum specific distance. If the difference in skill is too great there is no opporunity to learn anything. You just get crushed no matter what you try. The current system needs to change. All killers should have a completely independent MMR that is set slowly over time by winning from the base invisible number. Since all MMR is interlinked all killer MMR over the invsible 1200 ranking should be reset to the initial rating.
By the way : we know the cut off points because the hackers tell us what they are. Do you see how disingenuous that feels? We can only learn the truth by listening to cheaters that are telling us the rules you hide from us.
-"The system exists in a void. You never see it."
The problem is that the players feel it. Matching making in DBD feels terrible. Do you know how ridiculous it would be for people with a 1200 Elo in chess to play people with a 1600 Elo? DBD says whatever 1600 is the same as 2000 - yolo.
That is completely ridiculous. The magic cut off number of 1600 is too low.
The system is designed to favor speed over accurate matches once we hit 1600 MMR. This makes the game feel completely gross to play over that number.
I'd like to issue you and the entire DBD staff a challenge. Give everyone at BHVR an account "zapped" with 2400-3000 MMR. See how much fun it is to play at the upper end of the MMR spectrum. Spoiler alert : it sucks.
Rules for the challenge
- You must use addons/items with equal frequency. In other words you can't play pinky finger clown a second time until you have played through all the other addons (or played a game "skipping" some playing with none).
- You may not play Blight or Nurse as these killers have such a massive advantage over every other killer.
- Play games for both killer and survivor. It doesn't need to be 50/50 but give each a fair number of games (lets say 10-20 minimum over the month).
- You can use whatever perks you wan - go wild. Pro tip: you'll want to use meta perks.
- Get good - or you will suffer during this "event". But acrually that's the point - DBD at high MMR is an incredibly fun experience that makes me not want to play even though I really love the game. In short the game is ruined because I have to play a certain way because of my MMR.
-"The matchmaker starts...."
The matchmaking in DBD feels bad. We can't really know for sure because we can't see after the fact if the Blight we were playing against was +200 MMR or -200 MMR. You hide this information from us in what I feel is an attempt to hide at just how bad/inaccurate the Match making system actually is for some players.
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Absolutely correct. It's about time someone else spoke up about how terrible the match making is.
The arguments of everyone defending it are painful to read. And even more painful to try and comprehend.
Thank you!
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To piggyback off of this, a few things:
1. The notion that showing MMR would lead to elitism is ridiculous to me. We already have that with imagined numbers. Someone can close their eyes and click on 5 forum posts. 3 of those will contain multiple posters saying "you must be low MMR" or "this is how it is at high MMR". The "problem" they're trying to prevent already exists.
2. We can't provide accurate feedback about something when we can't tell you what's wrong with it. You've released a system that people were unhappy with, tweaked it behind the scenes based on vague feedback, and people are still largely unhappy with it. "The match felt bad" tells you nothing. There is no actionable item based on that feedback. Same thing with "The match was too hard". Why? Why was it hard? We really can't tell you because you won't show us what's going on.
3. Someone is eventually going to release a tool to show player MMR. It has happened in every game that hides it. And the reasons for hiding it are pretty weak in the first place. What I can confidently say is that people are on the right track when they speculate about just how bad and random the matchmaking is with outliers, and I suspect that's why BHVR is insistent on hiding it in the first place. Matchmaking doesn't gradually widen if nobody is within range. It essentially gives up altogether.
11 -
Thank you for clarifying that first point. Would it be possible to provide some actual numbers? I feel like that might help us understand just how broad this middle section really is.
I think what most of the complaints about SBMM really come down to is that our MMR (at least as far as we know) is only based on kills / escapes and not how many hooks we got or how good we did in chase. This can lead to some extrem cases where killers that go for many hooks are somewhat low in their MMR and killers that tunnel / camp more are higher up, when in comparison the first one might play better than the second. Such an analogy exists for survivors too of course.
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Devs dont want to use mmr numbers as bullet for elitism/toxic behavior but they are killing their own game like this. Players have tools such as hidden profile to avoid toxic people and complete hide the endgame chat or simply just press continue when the game finishes.
Mmr did more harm than right at least for killers.. you can't put killer players that are trying to LEARN a new killer with very high level survivors because nobody wants to deal with players that are playing as if their lifes depend on it or for a $10 gift card just to later on complain that the killer used the tools they have to win the video game.. come on.
The entire "we dont want players to use their mmr number as bullet for toxic behavior" is flawed and makes little sense when the game is currently in a very unhealthy and unfun state due to mmr and lack of constant balance. And players arent to blame here they are using the tools dev's are giving to them.
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-"Someone is eventually going to release a tool to show player MMR"
Hackers have such a tool. We know about some of the game limitations and the MMR cut off points because of their discussions with Choy.
-"We can't provide accurate feedback about something when we can't tell you what's wrong with it"
Otz will be the first to tell you that the devs don't really seem to listen to any of the fog whisperers. Even if we could give them good feedback I do not think they would really mind what we have to say.
"Mmr did more harm than right at least for killers.. you can't put killer players that are trying to LEARN a new killer with very high level survivors"
That's pretty much exactly what I said before.
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To me the only important metric to decide whether a system is good is has it made the game more enjoyable. Has it resulted in matches that at least on average are more fun to play. Overall MMR has failed in that regard. At lead imo. It's not really worse than rank based match making imo but it's definitely not better.
Ultimately it doesn't matter as BHVR seems to be happy with the current system. Though I can't imagine what they like about it.
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Absolutely amazingly well-put!
MMR is to me still a very bad addition. Did I like ranks? No, not really. I didn't play enough each month to reach the ranks I deserved, so I was hoping SBMM will give me fair matches once and for all.
Unfortunately, it is very bad. I was, in all my honesty, expecting a very intricate rank-up system, considering how long it took. But instead it used a terrible metric to measure if you're good at the game. All the matches are extremely random. One game you get pros, one game the status icons are blank all the time.
Unfortunately it seems, BHVR has no intent to make changes. They seem to be unbelievably proud of their work with SBMM and refuse to acknowledge all the issues.
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Winning matches with 1 killer raises MMR for all other killers
BHVR answer : Even if this is the case
"Even if"? Why are you not willing to say how Killer MMR is calculated? What's the big secret?
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This is such corporate BS. Lots of points with no proof.
- Sure, you say soft-cap isn't easy to hit. But I beg to differ since no matter what killer I'm playing, I still get put against people I know for a fact are competitive players. Why not just SHOW us the MMR numbers to prove it?
- I seriously doubt it "broadens" as the wait time increases. I have been put into games with people who have between 100-300 hours as someone with 1.5k hours nearly instantly. On both sides. Even during peak times when everyone is playing. I'm inclined to believe it just drops it altogether and pairs you with whoever after an initial search.
- You seem to even admit here that killers shouldn't share MMR. Yes, some separation is better than none at all, but if you're agreeing with us, why was it ever shared at all? Just drop it and make killer MMR entirely separate. Makes no sense that me playing Huntress and getting kills is increasing my Hag MMR.
- That's the problem. We don't see it. So, how are we supposed to know if our matches our fair? Instead you leave us playing out sweaty matches and having an awful game experience. And there is nothing for us to fall back on. Why was it bad? Was the matchmaking poor? Did I make the wrong choices in-game? We will never know, which makes people fed up with the secrecy. It's not about wanting to an increase a number we never see, literally every other game lets you see the increase which makes you want to play more and improve. You get no reward in DBD which is probably why the game is on the downhill.
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There is no secret. The first time you eve get a killer to 1600 MMR will raise all your other killers to 1200 MMR. We know this because of Choy's conversations with "less than legit" players.
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Why can we not see our MMR? I've heard people say it's because it would lead to toxicity. People are already toxic and everyone is already convinced that they are in high MMR anyway. It would be nice to actually know where you stand.
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The real reason they won’t show MMR is because it would reveal that the system doesn’t work at all, putting players together in matches that have no business being matched together for the sake of shorter queue times.
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This is honestly the most likely answer. I just got out of a game against a 180 hour Wesker that I ran for 4 gens. I have 4200 hours. Good matchmaking. Slowly expanded after 20 seconds of queue time to accept literally anyone to fill the lobby. Good stuff.
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Which is the system players preferred when it was tested last year during a blind trial.
No one wants to wait 10+ minutes for a game that only lasts 5 minutes anyway.
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When you say not many people are above the soft cap, are we talking about the 1600 soft cap that's supposed to split off babies from regular players? Because I find that hard to believe.
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I think it would help a lot of people if you showed your Facts. Right now we just have to take your word this is the case. Is there a chance we will get to see this stats in a presentation?
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I mean they're never going to show stats if something is broken unless they are planning on fixing it soon, they'll just hide it from the player base.
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I think it would do more harm than good. I know you specifically would like to know but I think a lot of people would actually be upset if they knew their MMR. Also showing MMR will just promote more sweaty, comp like games. I don't know if you ever played or watched competitive DBD but that's not a game I would like to play.
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The only thing I want to add is I can't stand the "backfilling" that makes blatant mismatches because someone dodged a lobby. Have the system take a minute to find a proper replacement. Tired of getting matched with multiple P100s/TTVs already readied up. Then I have to dodge and some baby killer gets thrown to the wolves.
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Peanits has explained this a million times by now. Maybe read his/their post?
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U know u are at high mmr when the only thing u see is nurse or blight sometimes spirit (and now that is bugged and its been for a month already even more) in 6 out of 10 matches. If not more. Even if i win the night will be short since i will be tired after the third game sometimes i want to chill not sweat to win a game still im forced to sweat every game doesnt mean i want to lose and lose my items, but many times i will leave out of boredom or tireness. Then u hit reality even if u kill on hook u are against the same ######### over and over again since mmr doesnt go down easily. Sometimes i miss the old one since u may have a rough game but then u could get a more chill game if u saw lower ranks but now is hell after hell after hell
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I don't care much of metrics or reasons, but I've enjoyed playing before MMR implementation more. Maybe mostly because I could see ranking up and it kept me going. Yeah, i think most of all I would love to see MMR.
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Regarding point 4, I would like to say that this statement is partly wrong. losing mmr points can very well be damaging and render the game virtually unplayable. in a 1 to 1 game the statement would be correct. however, dbd is 4 to 1. so, as a survivor, you are instructed that everyone in the team has a certain minimum level of skill. if this isn't there, then it's incredibly difficult to escape. especially since escaping through the hatch doesn't yield any mmr gain.
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