To everyone saying DH is so easy to counter...
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The survivor can bait the huntress into throwing or round the corner. I think that's more the same thing as the pallet vs m1 with DH. One side it is weighted in favor for but the other side can still do something.
The correct play is to not shred into a pallet and not hope your shred was the perfect timing to avoid the DH or stun. Identifying risky scenarios and actively trying to avoid risk when there is a safer play is a skilled thing for killer. If you aggressively attack as demo you will be eating a crazy amount of DH every game. I typically find 2-3 survivors on average run this perk.
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why r they predropping all pallets? theyre horrible
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Idk if I'd call comp players horrible
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bruh they were predropping godly pallets the second they saw the killer.
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1) Guess you’ve never heard of “comp dropping”? It’s pretty much what you do.
2) you always pre drop against oni. Don’t even risk giving him his power.
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Could it be possible that they might know something that you don't?
Perhaps a better comment would've been, "Why are they dropping those pallets so early, I thought you were supposed to try to save those?"
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If I post a video of someone losing to DH, people will just say that Killer got outplayed. I know because I've done that, and that's how people responded.
And tournament rules mean Survivors can only bring one DH, so the impact that DH has on the game is drastically reduced anyway.
I can't win with this crowd, honestly; regardless of skill level, regardless of whether you win or lose against DH, they'll always find some little exception for why DH must still be fine.
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So no duplicate perks, then?
Well, goes to show that the game is not balanced around survivor perks being exclusive, considering how hard survivors get stomped without being able to pick the top tier perks.
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Crazy how survivors are under the same rules here. In comp survivors receive insane nerfs to allow killers to actually play the game. If they made it equal for both sides by saying you can just run anything yellow or under it's basically a 3-4 man out vs all killers outside S tier.
To then take the games OP posted and conclude that certain perks are fine because that side lost is hilarious. They heavily nerf survivors to make games more enjoyable since you are playing vs a wide array of killers. There is no reasonable information any player can get from a single set match in regards to game balance.
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Can the survivor not bait a demo into doing what they want? You can do something when in your corner pallet scenario, even if it's not something you would want to. As an aside we do eat a lot of dh when we don't care, and then they don't have dh with corner pallet and we have stacks of stbfl.
So if survivors are putting you in a position where they can't be punished for a misplay that doesn't count for skill or brains while if you zone them into a similar position it is skill or brains? Is SB in the same place as dh as there's no way to reduce it's effectiveness other than map or other effects that equally affect dh?
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I mean, killers kill a survivor within 4 hits all the time. It isnt fair either.
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Yeah. OP chose such a bad example that the thread may as well be "To everyone saying DH is so easy to counter... you're right. It's so easy to counter you may as well not bother and here's gameplay to prove it"
Is it possible you're just not correct?
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Regardless of the conversation of DH here I find it kind of weird that people use "4k with gens left" as a point, when it's tournament rules (limiting items/perks) that are heavily artificially limiting how strong the survivors normally would be and on one of the few much more balanced maps where in most games you'd be playing a much harder match on average.
That's like putting two people in a 1v1 fight and saying the first guy is actually pretty good at fighting because he wins after you had the second guy fight the whole match blindfolded and with a hand tied behind his back...
Using the result of the match to draw conclusions about DH being fine is very flawed.
I could see this argument being more rational if we didn't limit perks, items and used a map more reminiscent of what you'd see in most games.
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Survivors can bait the Demo but the Demo is in control. If you are going to fake a window or pallet I can counter you. Good survivors can really conceal that they are going to bait but it at the end comes down to me falling for the bait for it to work. If I predict you will bait the pallet I always get the hit if you tried to bait it. It is only when I predict wrong where I get punished.
How is it fair if I bait the survivor into thinking I'm going to attack them and waste their parry yet they don't get punished for the mistake since the parry duration is the time of my attack window. This is why it basically is old DH for the survivor getting outplayed. What would make this situation fair is if a survivor can't throw pallets or vault windows for maybe 7 seconds if they failed their DH.
I can reduce SB by concealing portals near gens. There are ways to reduce how strong SB is vs Demo but that isn't the case for all killers. If DH was to die there would be complaints about SB. This would be in the same area where certain killers feel that they can't reduce how strong the perk is with their skill. This namely would be m1 killers most affected.
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When one survivor has it*
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If the survivor knows what they can get away with and use it effectively then that's again then being smart. They're going to use the tools and abilities at their disposal which is fair as the killer is going to use everything at their disposal to kill them. We're not going to touch the 7 second thing.
So demo can reduce sp effectively but what about piggy? Was the original debate about dh being more effective on certain killers? (Honestly we kinda lost track)
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I don't see how being smart with a perk justifies it being broken to the point where if you get outplayed with that perk you are getting old DH. I don't really follow the logic there.
I think any killer that is prone to pre-leave is going to have massive issues with SB. I'm not saying that exhaustion perks are all fine outside of DH. They should fix all valid issues with the game. The game should be fun to play and balance after. If the kill rates are fine but the game is miserable then they need to make the game not miserable and then fix the kill rates after.
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"DH is so op look at this comp game"
the oni 4k with 2 gens left lmao SB is the better perk
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the only almost un-outplayable thing about dh is when survivors use it under a pallet, other than that it's good against certain -fairly strong- killers. add some cooldown for throwing pallets after using dh and it's fine imo
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Cause it's not broken. It's unfun, annoying, and all around pain in the @, but it's playable. We're assuming you keep going for this "correct" play and trying to bait a dh the hissing way despite knowing that survivors can completely do whatever they need to in that timeframe. Maybe we're using the wrong words but the perk gives advantages in certain scenarios, which is what a handful perks are supposed to do.
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So, let me get this straight: Killers can still win against DH, so DH is balanced?
That's a pretty freaking low bar to clear, my dude. I could make a similar argument in favor of everything in this game that's ever been nerfed; nothing has ever achieved a 100% winrate as far as I know, even at the highest skill level. Survivors could still win against Moris, so Moris were balanced. Killers could still win against Keys, so Keys were balanced.
So if this is the best argument people can come up with to defend DH, I feel more confident than ever that I'm correct. Can't wait for BHVR to put an end to this farce.
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Nope, they've not even considered that they may not be right despite them literally proving themselves wrong by posting that video 😂
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So what would you have said if I posted a video of a Killer of similar skill losing to DH?
No, don't tell me. I already know from experience. "That Killer got outplayed, so Dead Hard is still fine."
You people are unbelievable.
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I'd say that there were likely other aspects of their gameplay that was poor.
However, you didn't post that scenario, so I literally CANNOT say.
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To be perfectly honest after Dead Hard thread number [insert 7 digit number of choice here], I legitimately don't care. I've never had any real level of dislike towards Dead Hard myself and the perk is undeniably more balanced than it used to be, even if it's not necessarily balanced, period.
Hell, the change made to Dead Hard isn't too far from my own idea at the time of "your don't get the 'Dead Hard for Distance' unless you actually tank the hit", so I can't really complain about the outcome.
I just sent take them very seriously anymore, especially if the evidence provided runs counter to the intended point.
What you'd need is a video of a competent killer losing my just to Dead Hard, but to abuse of Dead Hard. Losing to Survivors consistently engineering situations to get value that the Killer can do little or nothing about.
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I'd straight up no lie rather old DH as Demo. I think that perk was weaker than the current one vs the players I face and the total value they get from the new one is higher than the old one. I'm gunna say that broken is the correct term to use for the power state this perk is at vs Demo. Which is also the case for many other killers. Billy and Bubba are both killers where new DH is worse than old.
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And here we have Otzdarva, Killer main with thousands of hours famed for his 50+ Killer win streaks, jumping through every possible hoop to bait out DH and looking like an idiot for trying.
inb4 "He got outplayed".
See the above video. Nancy could have easily not had DH at all and the clip would have played out exactly the same. I'd say that qualifies as "abuse".
Though if you want clips of top-tier Killer players, especially tournament-winning Killers, losing outright to abuse of Dead Hard specifically, that's a bit of a tall order, given that Dead Hard is banned or limited in most DbD tournament rulesets, for some reason.
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Anyone saying it's easy to play around is being disingenuous, but so are the Killers that act like every DH is used to perfection. A lot of the games I play and streams I watch see Survivors messing up their DH or having it baited out without losing that much time a hilarious amount.
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Part of the issue with DH is that for it to make an impact on the game, it doesn't have to be used to perfection. Any chase may see it used correctly, but none of them must. The mere threat of DH drastically reduces the Killer's options in chase. You can't lunge, or they could E on reaction. You can't use Huntress hatchets, or any other power that can be reacted to with E.
Schrodinger's Dead Hard lets you make it to pallets and windows where you would otherwise be dead to rights. Even before it's actually used, it can extend a chase considerably. Which is one reason why top-tier Killers often don't even bother trying to bait it out.
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She literally landed 0 Dead Hard's
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You and I both know that she would have gone down MUCH earlier if Otz wasn't scared of the DH she was holding. If Otz wasn't "Just waiting it out".
What exactly are you hoping to prove by arguing in bad faith here?
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Otz had a couple opportunities to swing and make it unreactable.
I don't know why he didn't.
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Because whether a swing is unreactable or not, the Killer has no way to know exactly when the E is going to come out. Survivors will often specifically try to hold DH for when the Killer least expects it.
And if you've been playing the game for this long, you already know all this. Playing dumb is unbecoming of you.
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He lost more time than he gained by waiting.
He should've swung when he was close and she would've gone down.
Like you said, I've been playing a long time. It's not that difficult to deal with. Otz was clearly trying to prove a point
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If DH is really not that difficult to deal with, I'd hate to see what you actually do consider to be difficult.
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Old Circle of Healing on Ironworks.
Or
Comp squad on Fractured Cowshed.
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Impressive. But you know what doesn't require a full-on comp squad to be good, isn't remotely map-dependent and has so far escaped nerfs despite still being the #1 meta perk post-update? Dead Hard.
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Hmmm, DH nerf denier.
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I thought you didn't like it when people did adhoms.
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I don't but it's hard to argue against someone who denies facts.
It's like trying to argue with my conspiracy theorist mother, it isn't worth the effort.
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LMAO if those are comp players then i'm aganist cheaters all the time... Please, those survivors were nothing special. You could have done a better example op imo... If we put into the equation that in "tournaments" people are restricted in perks/items selection, this won't reflect at all the current state of the game and the HUGE issue that dead hard is
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I mean... he had her at a bad pallet, but was so scared of DH that he didn't swing.
If she had hit Dead Hard, she would've gained distance and the chase would continue.
Instead she got a pallet drop, giving her distance and letting the chase continue.
Otz should've recognised that there was literally zero value to waiting. He was too focused on countering DH that that became the priority over ending the chase. He'd rather chase 40 seconds longer than hit DH and be done in 20.
That's his mistake.
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If something those vids prove that's only how killer-sided and unbearable for survivors this game became so even swfs on comms have quite hard time to complete the gens and win games. Imagine being solo surv kekw
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Two things immediately come to mind:
1) What on earth is that screen resolution?
2) Did this guy microwave his graphics card?
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When arguing with a fool, make sure he isn't doing the same thing. I assure you, I can be quite eloquent when someone gives me something to work with.
If you're used to arguing with conspiracy theorists, maybe you have some bad habits. Because there are very few credible arguments in favor of conspiracy theories and it isn't the brightest people making them.
These are the community cup finals. Literally the only DbD tournament that's officially affiliated with BHVR. And my original point was debunking the old lie that anyone who swings into DH is a bad player. Of course this isn't a good example of DH's actual strength, given that it's restricted in tournaments, but what else am I to do?
If I post a video of a good player losing to DH, people will say they got outplayed so DH is fine. If I post a video of a good player winning against DH, that means Killers can win against it, so DH is also fine.
I tire of these games. I'm over here playing baseball while the people defending DH are playing Calvinball.
Post edited by Monlyth on0 -
I feel you mate, I know what was your point, but you didn't considered the fact that most people over here (not everyone) will defend that cursed perk in every case (you are wasting your breath arguing with people that don't wanna hear reasons)
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what are u trying to infer lol? vistuis doesnt have problem w dead hard and stop using him to try and justify whatever point ur trying to make
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This thread is kind of hilarious. Even in the Otz video posted he gets a 2k and he clearly makes a mistake thinking the Nancy was going to pull off a perfect DH.
I don't really have an opinion on the DH fight. I don't run it as a survivor and don't find it that annoying as a killer (more powerful than sprint burst, but riskier). And while single videos don't prove anything, if you believe DH needs nerfed and in the videos you post the killer wins, yeah people are going to point out that you are undercutting your own argument.
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In comp dbd survivors get massively nerfed. In the CC the rules say killer is restricted on add-on rarity and survivors are not only restricted in the same way but can't bring duplicated perks or items. So they massively nerf survivor and then players are using that the survivors lost the games as some counterpoint.
Otz getting a 2k is also irrelevant. Matchmaking in this game is capped at 1600 so players above this will always be viewed at 1600 for matchmaking purposes. The entire post is about baiting DH out and players just shift the goalposts.
How does players winning games matter in the context of DH being easy to bait out? The answer is that it isn't but players are grasping at anything to counter the perk being a problem. If x is a problem then y is the solution unless y is also a problem then it is z. Feels like a circular argument. If you are eating DH then bait it out. baiting out dh is easy you just need to get better. Top players are eating DH but they need to bait it.
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If you don't think comp play is relevant to the discussion, don't bring up comp play.
If you don't think Otz is relevant, don't bring up Otz.
However these were the videos provided, people point out the problems with them, and then the anti-DH side wants to discuss anything but those videos.
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