Tunneling Suggestion
Okay, so I have two ideas that could help discourage killers from tunneling, and actively make it worse for them to do so in regards to winning the match.
1.) Implement a MASSIVE bloodpoint deficiency if the killer is found downing and hooking the same survivor within 60 (this can change) seconds of them being rescued. If a killer tunnels a survivor, then the game should maybe take into account the amount of generators left in the trial, and apply a percentage to the amount of bloodpoints the killer would receive from the chase and the hook.
- E.g. 5 gens = 50% BP taken from chase/hook, 4 gens = 40%, etc. (These numbers can be changed obv.)
- I want to acknowledge how there ARE reasonable scenarios where tunneling is key, so I feel like taking how many gens are left is a good starting point. The next thing I would take into account would be hooks using the same percentage method, but I feel gens are maybe doing enough.
2.) A survivor should last longer on hook if tunneled. The same 60-second timer could be used. If a survivor is hooked within 60 seconds of their last unhook, then the struggle timer could be increased.
- Currently, the struggle timer lasts 60 seconds. Maybe if a survivor is tunneled it lasts 70 or 80 seconds.
- OR, and this may be better when it comes to acknowledging reasonable tunneling scenarios, the amount of gens is once again taken into consideration, and 1 gen equals 5-10 seconds
- E.g. 5 gens = +50 seconds/+25 seconds, 4 gens = +40 seconds/20 seconds, etc.
I don't want to pursue COMPLETELY removing tunneling from the game, I don't think that's responsible or correct, but I just think it needs to be DETRIMENTAL to a killer in the early stages of the game (5-4 gens left). I think the notion that a lot of killers have (that they need to tunnel at 4-5 gens left to win) is VERY flawed, and doesn't promote skillful gameplay or learning. I think it's everyone's right to play how they wanna play (obv.) but I don't think an unskillful thing such as tunneling at the early stages of the game should not be very detrimental within the match for the killer.
This is coming from someone who plays survivor and killer mostly equally nowadays. I don't think this suggestion is perfect, but I think it is a good starting point. I'd hate to get a 4k as a killer by tunneling off 5 gens left and see I only cracked like 15k bloodpoints.
*Upon further consideration, the 60 seconds is probably too long for either timer. I'd reduce it to 30 or so. Also, I would for sure NOT have struggle timers increased by 10 seconds per gen. I'd go with 5 seconds per gen. 10 is wayyyy to long.
Also, I'm seeing so many complaints about basekit BT being used for bodyblocking or taking a hit. The point of BT is to make tunneling right off hook just less effective enough so a survivor has the chance to put themselves in a situation to make a skillful or helpful play and not just go down immediately to the killer. Unlucky for killers, taking a hit may be the best play in a certain situation. It only lasts 10 seconds, and a killer can usually wait out the BT or bodyblock the survivor to exhaust the timer in order to hit them without any punishment or discouragement (even at 5 gens, which is where I think the problem lies).
Comments
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1) I don’t care about blood points. I don’t even spend mine anymore. I will tunnel you.
2) Usually I will try to hook near the gens I am defending. Having someone on hook for a long period of time is great for me because there’s only three or less survivors who can do gens. I don’t think the amount of time a survivor spends on the hook has any effect on their being tunneled. Also it would probably be extremely boring to sit on a hook all game.
The true problem is that the moment I tunnel you out of the game, your team loses 100% of gen progress out of the collective 400%. That’s a HUGE debuff. Nothing here that you’ve suggested addresses that, so people will continue to tunnel, because it’s the optimal play.
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They already did something to address tunneling. They gave everyone basekit BT. What did survivors do with it? Did they use it as intended to make distance and not be tunneled? No, they weaponized it for a free body block, then still come here and whine about being tunneled.
You want to avoid being tunneled, learn to loop better, put in the hours to learn, and stop asking BHVR to fix your lack of skill. I mean that in a general sense, not at YOU directly good sir.
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first of all zero is totally right survs already love to use basekit bt to not get away but to tank what exactly makes you think that survs would not 100% run into my face if i would get a penality of any kind for downing them again?
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Damn, you're a pretty aggressive killer main lmao. As someone with 5k hours across two platforms I can guarantee learning to loop better will not stop killers from attempting to tunnel lol.
My own skills, or the skills of survivors, have NOTHING to do with how a killer choses to play.
Also, moaning about how survivor use free BT to take a bodyblock is dumb. I'm sorry. Wait. it. out. Or hit it to get it over with. To expect a survivor to have BT, and NOT take a bodyblock is expecting them not to make good use out of their situation. Survivors are meant to help their teammates, and to ask them to not is insane.
The basekit BT does little to nothing to actually counter tunneling, as it doesn't last for very long. It helps, but it's not actually a HUGE plus.
Also, if we're bringing up skill. YOU need to learn to chase better and put in the hours to learn. I and so many others have won TONS of killer games without tunneling off 5 gens. Its indicative of your skill if you do that.
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Hooking them. Not downing them.
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okey so i try to dont tunnel and go for the unhooker you run into my face blocking me maybe even blocking a door i down you loose aditional time from the weapon wipe and then i cant hook you cause i would get a penality so i dont even get bp for hooking you nor does it advances my objective while youre mate got away.
that does not sound nice at all. i wonder why so many killer are against most anti tunnel ideas even when they are against tunneling
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Yesterday every match I had with the new killer they tunneled people off hook. I had one tunnel me off hook but they waited out my BT timer before they hit me to get the down. Apparently no one knows how to use the new killer so they’ve all decided to just tunnel people out with her. It’s so boring.
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1) irrelevant
2) exploitable. Just look at all the survivors using BT as a tanking mechanism to see how much they want to be tunneled (I make a point tunneling and killing any survivor doing that)
The incentive for tunneling is the lack of other options.
The more these options are being curtailed, the more tunneling happens.
So far, every move since at least the "big overhaul" has been turning the need for tunneling up to 11.
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And for some reason so many people on this thread don't see how EASY it is to wait out basekit BT lmao.
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"The incentive for tunneling is the lack of other options."
I'm sorry but that's total bs, at least for killers who tunnel with 5 gens left.
Obv. there are some scenarios where there are no options, but my suggestions are mostly meant to counter tunneling at 5 gens, which just shows a lack of skill.
Also, what options have actually been taken from killers? The devs increased gen times, a killer can still go after another person, they can currently wait out BT and hook again with no penalty, they can go to another gen that survivors are working on, they can get into another chase, etc.
What options are begin taken that AREN'T related to tunneling? I'm not saying playing killer is easy, it's usually not, but I don't see why killers need the "I NEED TO TUNNEL AT 5 GENS" mentality when there ARE options.
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This is why the amount of gens left is important. If this were to happen to you at 1 or 2 gens left, it won't mean much. If this happens at 5 gens, you can still slug to cause pressure or take the penalty.
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would still feel incredible ######### for the killer.
he does nothing wrong he goes for the unhooker he doesnt want to tunnel and the surv takes a system that is designed to deter from tunneling and use it as a weapon. thats just not good and thats why bhvr doesnt do things like that just look back at the anti camp system they tested where survs instantly came up with a way to use it against the killer wich is why it doesnt got into the game.
i dont say they shoulnd come up with a solution for tunneling and camping but as long as there is a way for it to be weaponized it cant work
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To make Tunneling less of an option they need to adjust Gen progression and regression
Everything else is too much to say the least
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the issue with tunneling is that it needs a definite definition in game, and its only a problem when its deliberate. if the killer manages to hook somebody else-for this example, lets say a meg was first hook, then feng-in less than 60 seconds, and the killer finds meg again, why should they be punished and forced to play hide and seek with the other two in order to progress their objective? if feng gets unhooked, thats half the lobby the killer gets punished for going after. we shouldnt punish tunneling, we need to promote going after new people, and have "new people" be anyone who wasnt the last hook. back to my example-meg would be a good person to chase after hooking feng because the killer would now get whatever buff you get from not going after the last hooked person
early game is already the killers absolute weakest point, i dont think we need to make that even worse, then we'll end up like evil dead the game-20 minute+ survivor queue times because killer absolutely sucks to play
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But this is the problem, they're not weaponizing the basekit BT. The point of BT is to make tunneling right off hook just less effective enough so a survivor has the chance to put themselves in a situation to make a skillful or helpful play and not just go down immediately to the killer. Unlucky for killers, taking a hit may be the best play in a certain situation.
Now, on the killer side, tunneling may become the best thing to do for a killer, but not at 5 gens remaining. Idk why the hell tunneling at 5 gens would be the only option for a killer.
Also, remind yourself of when basekit BT didn't exist. tunneling was so easy to the point where it could be done immediately, and survivors were in the position that a lot of killers think they're in now: They have no options.
My point is, killers have options at 5 gens, and taking a bodyblock with BT isn't weaponizing it.
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I do agree. Killers need to know they DO have options, especially when 5 gens are left. That could maybe help.
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not to mention how dh and coh promote tunneling in their own ways
a freshly unhooked survivor has 2 healthstates guarenteed (dh/bt/otr and the injured health state), meanwhile the unhooker has up to 3 (healthy, injured, dh). if you go after the unhooker, it will be nearly guarenteed to be a longer chase. if you go after the unhooker, the last person hooked can heal in coh, now you have another 3 health state survivor to chase
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None of your issues gives killer a reason to not tunnel. Both of your changes still make killing a survivor early the best situation for the killer compared to spreading hooks.
If you truly want tunneling to be less appealing, buff spreading hooks so that a killer who spread hooks has better control over the gens than an early kill.
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Maybe if another survivor is downed within the timer, the timer stops?
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I'd say this is more of a DH problem than a COH one. Also, DH can be baited or waited out. COH could ne nerfed more, maybe.
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that could work, but tunneling someone out of the game-no matter how long their second stage or how many bps you lose-will almost always make the game significantly easier and lead to a near guarenteed win
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its an issue with both. not a big issue, but another tiny reason why tunneling is the smarter call than not tunneling
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True, but longer hook states could give teammates more of a chance to do gens. If the killer keeps tunneling, then that one survivor will probably die, but the others have a chance to slam gens harder, meaning that a killer may have to actually go interrupt them in order to better their chances at a 4k.
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I think we need to ask the question: How bad is bodyblocking immediately off hook? Right now, a killer can wait out BT and get a down without penalty. If an unhooked survivor takes a hit with BT to bodyblock, then they are in an awful position because they cannot use things like DH as the endurance status effect doesn't stack. There's not many scenarios that promote an unhooked survivor to actually take a bodyblock.
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I won't say that doing that will solve all of the issues but it will take care of the biggest issues
But if that doesn't work then adding more to MMR would help to a lesser degree (like Gens left and Hooks)
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sure i have plenty of options at 5 gens and i too think tunneling at 5 is stupid and shows lack of skill but i can understand that especially the weaker killers might feel its the only right thing to do but thats a balance question not a tunnel question.
but i still think taking a hit with basekit bt is weaponizing it. survs asked for it so they have a better chance to escape now they use it so the killer cant capatalize on the fact that another surv might have not checked that its safe to unhook. and the worst thing is they use there shield to block a hit and then scream bloody murder if the killer goes for them the weaker target. thats what grinds my gears. they use a tool for escape as a weapon/shield and then still want the killer to turn a blind eye and walk away
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Call that however you want.
When a player realises that he either tunnels, either loses depending on how the survivors are playing, he will end up tunnelling from the get go.
Of course there are outliers that would play like that all the time but they aren't the majority or it would have been like this since the beginning.
We had a period where killers had other options. Complains there were that games were too long, or whatever else.
I hope they are happy now.
I'm not playing at the moment btw. Having to tunnel to win is just not fun.
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Skill? as if tunneling takes skill 😂
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I love how this community is so survivor sided that even alleged killers say that doing the smart thing when is the most efficient to do is not having skill, but not as much as survivors saying it at the same time they ask for the game to cover up their skill issue so they don't get killed the first.
Tunneling to get rid of a survivor as soon as possible is playing smart. The thing is tunneling on unhook is only viable if survivors allow you to do it. With basekit BT, unless someone wants his partner dead and unhook with you looking or that unhooked survivor decide to get altruistic and use his protection to block you, tunneling on unhook is not worth it as the unhook survivor would have gain a lot of distance by the moment you start chasing them, and taking in count the speeds gen get done right now you would only giving them repair time.
So, conclusion: Stop unhooking in front of the killer and using your protection as a shield, and you would make tunneling less appealing for the killer.
And if you meant being chased again later in the game without other survivor being hooked, you just had bad luck. If I found you again and have the option to chase someone with no hooks or you with one/two hooks already, I'm going to chase you. And if you get mad because I don't follow the Survivor's Morals Rulebook, is your problem.
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-"1. Implement a MASSIVE bloodpoint deficiency"
This isn't why people tunnel. You might as well punish SWF with point penalties for playing together to curb the advantage of voice coms. It's very reasonable actually to say : you will be given a 20% point penalty to your 4 man team because you are likely to earn 20% more points. It would make survivors very angry.
Do you not notice that for the most of the day killer is sitting with a 100% bonus? Nobody wants to play killer anymore.
-2. A survivor should last longer on hook if tunneled"
This is the wrong idea. You have perks to prevent tunneling. They include DS, Reassurance, Off the Record. The killer has no perks to prevent gen tunneling besides Deadlock - which has never appeared in the shrine.
Survivors need to stop tunneling generators so the killer stops feeling like they need to tunnel the survivors to win.
Tunneling one player for three hooks reduces enemy team efficiency by 25% so THAT is always going to be the killer's best play unless they get a base kit buff where something else is better. As an example : give the killer a stackable 9% debuff that affects generators/totems/hooks/healing/chests/doors. Every time you hook someone for the first time the team gets another 9% debufff to all actions (except things like unhook speed/vaulting/moving). If the killer sacrifices a player then they can't get the 9% stacking debuff from a player who has not been hooked anymore.
As a reminder: this needs to be base kit. Deadlock also needs to be base kit and have "rollback protection" so that if two gens finish at the same time then one is returned to 99% progress and blocked for 30 seconds. The perk by the same name would extend that timer by 30 seconds.
Before we had bast kit BT the survivor objective was shorter than the killer objective. Nothing changed here in a positive way for the killer. Time to kill went up and the killer had to tunnel MORE as a result of base kit BT.
Let us not forget about the hud changes. This makes survivors massively more efficient. What did killers get? They get more frustrating games that end faster.
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I completely agree with this, expect I think base kit BT was implemented to help Camping and Tunneling.
which is does, well if you dont use it to take hits.
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Getting bloodpoints obviously isnt why people tunnel and I don't claim that, but giving killers less for doing it would be a way of discouraging them from doing so. Even if its just slightly.
Also, did you just ask survivors to stop doing gens as quick as possible?
Also, I like your deadlock idea.
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People want 3 gens dead, and they want tunneling dead. I think you guys would be happier playing against perkless bots.
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Killer M1 is so OP man, they should nerf it. It's not fun getting hit by the killer, there is no counterplay to it, and downing me is not allowing me to play so the killer is taking the game hostage and making it unplayable. In fact, attacking survivors should be a banneable offense!
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On my first day of playing DBD I was thinking it is a horror game at which I am meant to die. I felt like I won each time I got high points for the match. I played with friends and I had no problem.
Next day some of us actually survived.
Then I tried to play killer. And first thing on my mind was to kill one of survivors to have better chance for win. It is the most obvious and optimal path.
A few days later someone told me that tunneling is an actualy a thing.
So we all start complaining and calling killers tunnelers.
Now I know that when we spread on gens, 90 seconds to the game we can be on 2 gens left. If we are 4 alive killer is already losing.
For the killer in most cases is no way to tell if he play against good survivors and did they spread on genes or not. Before you decide to tunnel it maybe already too late. When I play nice as a killer (and I always do) I have matches when I am on 1 gen in 3 min even if survivors have 200 h in the game.
The problem
Tunneling hurts mostly when you new to the game and you play solo survivor. When you are an average survivor then the problem gets smaller, with swf even smaller, good survivors and on competive level survivors starting to have no problem at all.
You can not solve a problem that is existing and not existing at the same time unless you do another game mode with separate rules.
The game offers a bunch of counter plays that make this game more fun and push survivors to play as a part of a team.
Imagine unhook. 10s base BT, another 10s of BT perk or Off the record, speed bust after hit, Decisive Strike into The Lithe, Anti-Hemorrhagic Syringe med kit, body block, For the people, die on palet....
Obviously this is not happening very often but it doesn't mean survivors not trying. Smart killer will give up chase before all chain of event will destroy him. If not.. then this is gg for the killer.
Whatever you give to survivors to prevent tunneling they will abuse it.
Some survivors, when slug, they will crawl to the edge of the map and bleed out for 3 min just to prevent the killer from getting points for hook. Survivors are not an angels.
Base kit BT is not only use to take hits and body block. Is used for unhooking also. If you have two survivors on hook you are not in as strong position as before the patch with base BT.
Is not nice to be tunneled 3 times in a row I got it. But if my teammates won one of this games I am good with that.
So where is the problem?
Problem is in the community.
And the best prove for that is the fact that there is no non tixic name for winning strategy for the killer. People like to complain - tunneling, camping, sluging.
Hit and run is not optimal and gen kicking build sometimes don't work with bad RNG and good survivors The killers who use them are called tryhards in post game chat.
Recently I was watching championships. People on competitive level. The Blight sacrificed 4 survs at 5 gens. Why would you apply any kind of mechanic to punish the killer for quick hooking and wining the game at 5 gens? That was big missplay on the survivors side.
Another match - The Doctor looses with 0 hooks. How do you tunnel in this situation? Bare in mind that this survivors had only one brown tool box because of competitive rules.
If you still reading this, when I play the match I have 2 main goals - learn and get decent Bloodpoints. Maybe that aproach will help you. Yes, I am a bit upset if I got tunneled or survivors rush the gens and leve before I get a few hooks. But this is not happening so often to cry about it for years. Sometimes you lose and you getting triggered but thats makes the game more fun and not boring.
From what I hear even from an experienced streamers, people would like to take from the game tunneling, camping, slugging, gen kicking. Imo, whatever you left with it will be boring by is own. Find, chase, kick 5 palets, hook, find new surv, chase, 4 plaets, hook... The decision making proces is narowed totaly. Realy? is it what everybody wants?
Conclusions
This is a competitive horror multiplayer game not adventures fairytale game. Just be ready to be sacrificed and have fun.
Entity is waiting for you.
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-" giving killers less for doing it would be a way of discouraging them from doing so. "
You get more points if you win than if you lose - generally speaking. Also people like to win so for a number of people you would do nothing. We already have a pip penalty if you camp. And if I want to win the game more than I want to pip then I will camp you to death if that is the winning move.
-"Also, did you just ask survivors to stop doing gens as quick as possible?"
That's an interesting way to put it. The reality is that gens need to get interrupted regularly and naturally as a base part of the game.
The reasoning tunneling happens as I said before is because the survivor objective is too easy/quick to complete. Nobody wants to hold a button for more time. So what needs to happen is that they can't just "afk" on a generator (as Hexy is fond of saying).
Imagine for example if we had a base mechanic where your generator gets to 90% and then your friend gets hooked. Your generator immediately gets blocked (because it has the most progress) and starts regressing as if the killer had kicked it (which means CoB or overcharge gen speeds would apply). The killer has 15 seconds to get more than 16m away from the hook unless they start a chase; failure to leave would end the effect. As long as no one else is on the hook your generator cannot be touched and will continue to regress. You can either start a new one or go rescue the hooked player.
-"Also, I like your deadlock idea."
It's kind of unfair really that one side has lots and lots of anti tunneling and the other side basically gets nothing. I would love to see a killer kick perk where you kick a generator and it can't be interrupted for ~20-25 seconds. The perk would have no cooldown as your travel speed will limit how often you can use it. Furthermore it is fundamentally not viable to just kick gens without getting downs and that more than anything would limit the perk.
-"Problem is in the community"
This is true.
I was asked why I tunneled someone out of the game tonight and I said you tunneled the gens so I tunneled your friend. My goal is to defend the generators. If I can't reasonably do that then I have to inflict as much damage on the enemy team as possible. Removing one player from the game does that.
Tunneling a survivor is not a toxic act. It is a desperation move that is required because you have no real viable alternative.
The problem is that we essentially have proliferation.
- Survivors tunnel gens to win as fast as possible so they all escape.
- The killer starts tunneling in the next round at 5 generators so that what happened last round never happens again.
- The survivors who got tunneled at 5 gens last game double down by picking a survivor favored map and bring gen rush items/perks.
- Killers stop playing weak killers and play Blight/Nurse with strong addons. They tunnel even harder.
- This creates a loop that makes the entire community unhappy.
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I think it should be done in the base mechanics so that a survivor can hang on each hook for 5 minutes and after hanging each survivor this time will decrease by 1 minute
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That's a cool concept. Having the game get faster and faster as the idea of a three gen gets closer and closer (something that can stall the game).
This would provoke the killer to actually go and get more hooks.
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The reason tunneling is used so much is that, against effective squads, it's pretty much the only thing that works. You literally cannot remove tunneling until you can incentivize some other play style, and doing so will just make kill rates plummet.
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It works against all squads. Not just effective ones. Also it's the most natural thing to do (camp+tunnel). So here we are in this thread...
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The major issue I see with these suggestions are it encourages survivors to be stupid. Like healing under hook, unhooked but hang around for flashlight saves...things that I punish as a killer. I don't disagree with the intent, but this would reward survivors for playing stupid
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I never said it didnt work on all squads, I'm saying that if you remove tunnelling before correcting the root issue, high MMR will become nigh impossible against skilled squads.
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DS is useless now, OTR is also useless if the killer hits right off the hook, and Reassurance only applies to others, bot yourself, and they have to be close enough to where they can unhook you anyway
So all these anti tunnel perks you suggest are moot, 2 seconds does not give you enough time to do much of anything
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Want to discourage killer from tunneling?
Easy, nerf Dead Hard and increase gen times.
Then killer gets time too chase and hook.
That easy.
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And get 6.1 effect. Killers (at that time camping/) tunneling even more and killrate skyrocket thru the roof. It's been tried. It doesn't work
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You say that, but content creators of that era proves you wrong with their chase footage by having actual fun chases.
And of course kill rate skyrocketed! Any departure from 0% (unless survivors play bad) is going to hit the inflated ego of the most favored group badly!
But I get it, nurse-blight OP cry-cry
Can't other killers being relevant smh
I guess back to tunneling, face camping and 3 gens!
Until then.
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Learning to loop better may not stop the Killer from "attempting" to tunnel you, but it may help you to not go down. Someone with 5K hours across two platforms should know that is a fact. Looping better helps you not get hit. If it didn't, people wouldn't do it.
Second, I'm not "moaning" about bodyblocks, I'm just stating a fact. It was designed/implemented as a defense from tunneling, not as a free health state just cause. If you want to use it to body block, be my guest. Play the game how you want. However, when I shift my focus back to that survivor and put them on the hook, they have no business complaining.
My point is that if BHVR ever decided to implement something more severe to discourage Tunneling, survivors would find a way to weaponize it beyond what it was intended for. You said it yourself, asking them not to is insane.
You're argument is that tunneling on 5 Gens "doesn't promote skillful gameplay or learning". No player here has that responsibility. Every player in this game paid their money, and have the right to play the way they want to. Players don't owe you, me, or any other player anything. We don't need to prove our "skills", we don't need to be demonized for using strategies available to us. We certainly don't need BHVR to step in and use game fixes to address player problems.
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-"So all these anti tunnel perks you suggest are moot"
Using Reassurance one time gives your team +2 minutes because it gives +30 seconds to four players. This is the same as the killer using pre nerf Pop goes the weasel six times.
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sure it's fun when you are winning with monitor turned off. But that's not balanced state. There had to come corrections and it all started with 6.2 and still continues.
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