General Discussions

General Discussions

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lets discuss skull merchant/knight 3 gens are not hard to counter just adapt

Member Posts: 542
edited March 2023 in General Discussions

remember they dont have the lethality of a nurse...they are m1 killers at heart

after playing most of the weekend against a variation of skull merchants and knights the way to beat the 3 gen situation is quite similar

1) use a good toolbox with bnp and prove thyself/tenacity/sprint burst/deja vu (hyperfocus if you are good or resilience if you want to work injured or circle of healing boon setup away from the 3 gens) and a large map offering if desired

2) dont do the first gen immediately look for a 3 gen and observe the killer see if they are doing a 3 gen set up a circle of healing boon meanwhile or store energy from another gen if possible (you wont lose it if they dont leave the 3 gen you wont get hit)

3)if the killer sets up a 3 gen then split up into pairs and attack the two furthest gens in the 3 gen. one person does the drone/leads the guard away the other person does the gen as efficiently as possible. when the killer comes to your gen,sprint burst away if you have to take a hit take it. using coms or even the survivor hud the other team can see when one survivor is in a chase.

4) break the 3 gen and marvel as either killer isnt as oppressive as you perceived it...yes i have done this mostly as a solo and even easier as a swf all weekend. not saying the matches will be quick but once the 3 gen is dealt with it really isnt so bad

what i find interesting about both of these killers is that they force survivors to change their gameplans and it seems hard for some people to adapt. before you say i have to change my perk/addon build out to accomodate 2 killers every killer has a different counter play (medkits useless vs a plague for example or its a legion split up and dont do gens together) that is the beauty of dbd (look at killers adapting to sniffing butts before swinging)

edit: i implore you to stop dcing and let bhvr gather the data from matches. dced matches dont count that is why we have such ridiculous stats like the nurse having a low kill rate...you want the game to be better than finish your game (or run up to the killer and go for that 5 gen loop you are capable of doing)

your thoughts?

Post edited by Skill_issue on

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Comments

  • Member Posts: 1,842

    I wish I knew where all these 3 genning SM's and Knights are because I wanna see if it's as bad as everyone says it is. I've only faced a few of either killer this week and the worst thing anything of them did was a SM that camped basement.

  • Member Posts: 2,551

    Generally, survivors should be breaking a 3 gen as soon as they log into the match or die trying. Either the match becomes winnable or you end the match in a reasonable amount of time.

    That said, that's not what regularly happens in most matches or is considered since many people ignore the meta strategy and focus on the micro (looping, etc).

    Since it isn't considered that often my opinion is that perks like Deja Vu, Potential Energy and Built to Last. They're quite often ignored and especially so if the survivor just wants to loop or flashlight save instead of doing gens but they're invaluable in breaking 3 gens. Considering how often 3 gen situations are popping up those perks should be looked at again.

    Of course after there will be complaints about gen rush builds but I can't think of a time I've played when there wasn't a complaint about gen slowdown perks or strategies and simultaneously complaints about gen rush builds.

  • Member Posts: 542

    it is just a war of attrition in the end 4 vs 1 not saying it is ez mode but eventually one side wins

  • Member Posts: 542

    i honestly dont think it is as widespread as people believe

  • Member Posts: 542

    no you can do it as a solo as well the hud information is right there...when not in chase do the gen if chase is dropped(looking at the hud) run away from the gen

  • Member Posts: 542

    i do agree it is the perks stacking that are the problem not the killer let it be call of brine or overcharge not together that is the combo that makes 3 genning possible at the moment

  • Member Posts: 542

    yes 100 percent your first 2 sentences...survivors only make the game as long as they want them to be. attack the problem headon...how is it different from previous gen rushing strategies?

    if people want to have fun looping/bodyblocking/saboing/flashlight saving then that is on them

    i would like to see gen rush perks stacking like hyperfocus with tenacity to be looked at as well

  • Member Posts: 542

    it is cob with overcharge stacking it should be one or the other honestly

  • Member Posts: 13,671
    edited March 2023

    Yeah I’m not sure where these mythical unbreakable 3 gen games or 3 gen games that last an hour are as I never see them. I play way more than the average person and solo queue at that and these games are nearly non existent. I can’t even remember the last game I lost because of a 3 gen.

    I think people lost a lot of matches that have a 3 gen because they or their team are playing bad and instead of taking accountability for skill issues or bad choices it’s easier to just blame a 3 gen or gen kick perks as why they lost.

    This mythical 3 gen issue is honestly a boogieman that doesn’t realistically exist. It can happen here and there, not saying ever, but rare enough that it really isn’t a problem.

  • Member Posts: 9,093

    skull merchant and knight have no mobility. you can pre-shift w from generators. if they commit to you, they lose. if they do not commit to you, you can chip at generator and gen regression is slower then progression.

  • Member Posts: 531

    No killer would be “oppressive in any real way” if you nerfed those.

  • Member Posts: 11,534

    Are you seriously saying that blight wouldn’t be oppressive without CoB overcharge? Most blights don’t even bother with them because he can get downs so quickly and is better off with PR

  • Member Posts: 273

    Totally disagree. SM with a 3 gen is almost impossible to beat. Knight is difficult too but not as bad as SM. Against regular killers 3 gens are ok.. but,

    i tested out this theory playing SM and was stalling games for 30 minutes to 1 hour against thousand hour swfs where I had no perks and no add ons equipped. SM 3 gen is literally life draining at this stage unfortunately. I probably won’t play her again because of this..

  • Member Posts: 6,797

    lmao

  • Member Posts: 2,475
    edited March 2023

    A 3-genning killer can dodge lobbies if they see a toolbox.

  • Member Posts: 1,586

    “Survivors only makes the game as long as they want them to be”. In other words, if you don’t want to be stuck in an infinitely long 3-gen standoff match, you either have to give yourself up to the killer or DC.

    ok got it - thanks for the helpful advice

  • Member Posts: 1,586

    “Mythical boogie man”. OK. So I guess the huge numbers of people complaining about this (including myself) are just liars?

    I believe your experience, and you shouldn’t dismiss the experiences of other players

  • Member Posts: 531

    Obviously excluding Nurse and Blight since they’re literally in their own universe. Everyone else though would have no good perks for defending gens and would suffer immensely.

  • Member Posts: 5,223

    It's not impossible

    It's just extremely tedious, boring gameplay that nobody ACTUALLY likes. People will say they love going from gen to gen holding the space bar but there's no way they actually enjoy doing it for gameplay. Some like doing it to make survivors mad which, yeah.

    In the time you spend trying to 'win' a genlock knight/skull merchant game, you could already be in your next match getting to actually play the game

    I'd rather lose then play like this, either role.

  • Member Posts: 1,915

    DC matches don't count toward MMR and published kill totals, but I don't think that means the data just entirely disappears from BHVR's radar.

    The difference between Knight/Skully and Plague is that what you are suggesting is to take perks to counter 2 killers vs the thought that there is a small chance a killer might counter your perk combo.

    As others have said, most of what you post about has to do with SWF.

  • Member Posts: 542

    they happen but it is down to survivors rushing gens without strategy and they end up giving the killer the pressure...dbd has always been about the killer capitalizing on survivor mistakes. you either run deja vu or do every other gen not all the gens on the same side of the map

    the only killers that can start a match and defend a 3 gen are trapper (debatable) hag maybe doc and obviously knight and the merchant but non of these killers has the lethality that makes it hopeless unless there is a snowball effect.

  • Member Posts: 542

    exactly this...it is just chip away at the gens and run away preemptively

  • Member Posts: 13,671

    I never dismissed the experience of others, I’m sure they do experience it. What I actually said was that the 3 gen issues they’re experiencing is more relating to a them or their team skill issue.

  • Member Posts: 13,671
    edited March 2023

    Yeah and realistic most the 3 gen killers don’t have the lethality as you mentioned so the survivors just go on all different gens and will slowly progress them faster than the killer can regress them even with full gen kick perks. There’s also going to be a CoH sitting out there for each person to also solo reset.

  • Member Posts: 13,671

    Yeah this ^

    This is generally why most 3 gens lose unless the survivors play bad.

  • Member Posts: 9,093

    I wonder what could be done to make low mobility killers more effective vs shift-w. Maybe they could use a perk that gives them haste effect when they walk near generators. I am not entirely sure. Many killer feel like a lost cause.

  • Member Posts: 39

    this equates to "Prepare for it before it happens". You shouldn't need to. And for this, you need lots of communication, and go sacrifice lots of pressure earlygame to try break it before it even happens

  • Member Posts: 1,662
    edited March 2023

    3 genning as skull merchant with full gen slowdown on a map like RPD, where drones can be placed on different levels to patrol gens has to be the most miserable experience ever. I played vs that a few days ago and it went on forever.

    If you're not in a full, decent SWF, just go next. Saves you a lot of time.

  • Member Posts: 13,671
    edited March 2023

    It is a difficult problem.

    I think the best solution is probably shrinking maps to make the hold w less viable against m1 killers. Like let's use Coal Tower as an example (referencing map size here, not layout), on this map holding w isn't nearly as viable against m1 killers as most other maps.

    Hold w being viable is a symptom of maps being too large essentially.

    Hold w can also be reduced by more LoS blockers in map design so they have less heads up that you're coming. Some of the worst hold w maps are the ones you can see the killer coming from a mile away. Think about most indoor maps for example, you don't generally speaking see as much hold w on these maps because they don't have a clear idea of where exactly you're coming from.

  • Member Posts: 9,093
    edited March 2023

    coal tower is pretty big length wise so I would not say that hold-w is ineffective on it. your solution to making maps smaller is not correct. your asking maps to be more circular similar to Wrecker Yard because circular maps create dead ends. I do not see this ever becoming true in DBD because many dbd maps are licensed. Badham for example is licensed map. Haddonfield is licensed map. they are never going to be circular and maps probably should not be all circular because its dull and boring. You need a solution that is more generic and keeps the game fun for survivor while solving killer issues.

    I think the real problem behind it is that killer movement speed is too slow outside of chase, but increasing their m/s outside chase is difficult because it is possible to exploit m/s outside chase. Just look at Old legion moonwalk where players could look at the floor while following the survivor to deplete the deep wound meter. Its certain puzzling problem to look at.

  • Member Posts: 8,266

    Im not going to use my 2 hours of gaming for 3 matches of DBD.

  • Member Posts: 13,671

    I didn't say the shape of coal tower, I said the size. You're referencing shape. I do think hold w is way less effective on coal tower than most maps. You can wedge people on corners. I don't think circular is necessarily the sole solution. Also, they can adjust the map sizes and shape even if it's licensed.

    I don't think anything similar to increased move speed outside of chase is ever going to happen, nor do I think it's a good idea. Map size and shape are the best solution in my opinion that's actually feasible and realistic.

  • Member Posts: 9,093

    You can wedge people on corners.

    I don't think so.

    Map size and shape are the best solution in my opinion that's actually feasible and realistic.

    I do not think it is realistic.

  • Member Posts: 13,671

    "I don't think so."

    There are 3 gens on the ends with corners.

    "I do not think it is realistic."

    More realistic than any other option. A passive out of combat move speed boost for m1's is never going to happen, map reworks do though.

  • Member Posts: 9,093


    I am just saying that map rework rarely shrink the map. I believe it has to do with the idea of map variety. you know, every map being different and fresh towards gameplay. I am not saying that haste will happen. I am just saying that lack of mobility on non-mobile killers in regards to yoyoing generator is severe weakness for many killers. You don't really see proper yoyoing unless your playing vs strong SWF team. its fairly uncommon for soloq. that is why I think 3 gens a lot stronger than you might think in the game because few survivors know how to play against it in the first place though I will admit that some maps that highly favor 3 gens can be unwinnable for survivor if the killer is competent with gen-kick setup.

  • Member Posts: 1,027

    You're absolutely right my friend, but you're fighting windmills here. People tell you it's impossible to beat 3gens because they don't have the skills. People refuse to adapt because they wanna play with their fun perks but expect an ez win at the same time. And if they have a match that lasts longer than 10 minutes, they're mad because they want to get back into the lobby simulator asap. People act like they're playing every match against a hardcore 3gen enjoyer. Then they should have learned by now how to counter it, right?


    By the way, you forgot about Blast Mine and Prove Thyself. A 3gen can also be broken very well with this. BNP isn't even necessary, I never play with it.

    I'm a Solo Q veteran and strangely enough I don't have any issues with 3gens either. The only thing that kills me is incompetent mates, but I've gotten used to that now.

    When people say it's impossible to beat an SM or a Knight, I can't take them seriously. The truth is that a lot of people don't like the gameplay of these killers per se, and that's a point. If you don't like 3gen tactics, that's ok, complain. But don't pretend these tactics are op and not beatable.

  • Member Posts: 3,452

    Very well said 'soloQ veteran.'

    I am the perkless Clown who 4k's every match on Mother's Dwelling and I can't take any complaint in this game seriously.

    It's most definitely always a skill issue.

  • Member Posts: 42

    Why are so many here complaining about cob and overcharge stacking? if the killer is 3-genning and your mates have some brain so they are focussing another gen instead of the one you were working on, you just can tap the gen, hit the skillcheck (not very difficult) and you will easily make more progress, because even at the maximum of cob + overcharge (which is after 30s) it is just as fast as one survivor repairing and if you really need so much time to tap a gen...its your fault.

    Be aware, while you are working on a gen, if you see the killer or hear his tr just get off the gen. Wait until he kicked the gen and go back to it, because the killer has to go back to the other gens. What regression do we have in that case? 5%? Eazy repaired within a few seconds.

  • Member Posts: 542

    you are right i forgot to put blast mine which is a great time waster against gen kicking perks (and if the survivor decides to hide around the gen gives them time to run away). prove thyself is good vs knights/merchants/twins when people should be grouped up in pairs but more situational against say a legion or plague where you want to seperate and finish gens alone.

    i know about solo hell believe me and it has improved with the new hud...having bad teammates who refuse to adapt and learn are just growing pains but they will only get better as long as they try and not just dc vs the killer early in the game (even against that "impossible" 3 gen scenario)

  • Member Posts: 542

    much respect to that level of skill and dedication on getting good with clown

  • Member Posts: 542

    the only reason i bring up the stacking is that it might be seen as to op vs newer survivors (the ones who cant hit the skil check and dont go back to tap the gen).

    i agree with everything you commented on except to be wary about sticking around the gen in case the killer has nowhere to hide and the survivor is without distortion(and not good at looping)

  • Member Posts: 1,081

    When even otz is getting frustrated with SM and making jokes about the games lasting 45 min.

    Yeah, this is not good.

    Either she or CoB/overcharge are toasted.

  • Member Posts: 1,227

    Do you expect anyone to believe you and take you seriously when you proclaim yourself as a ‘solo q veteran’.

  • Member Posts: 21

    Takeaway from this post: Always play in a swf. Honestly this whole debate isn't whether or not it's hard, it's the fact that there's no fun to be had playing a match with little interaction from the killer side at all. It's also baffling to see people defending this play style that's so obviously unhealthy and unfun for the game.

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