RE: Hook Timer Should Pause When the Killer Camps
I really don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to get behind. It really all just boils down to:
Problem:
Killers closely guard hooked survivors to draw out other survivors and forcibly distract them from objectives. Or just straight up to taunt a survivor.
Why is this an issue:
Players in the lobby who fall victim to this, get their rank ruined -- survivors are struggling to figure out who and how to save or trade places with a hooked survivor and the gameplay by design just goes sour.
Solution:
Pause the hook timer when killers are within a certain range of a hooked survivor, FOR AN ACCUMULATED AMOUNT OF TIME -- it's really that simple.
Edge Cases:
Survivors are running the killer towards the hook -- Don't accumulate time til' pause if other survivors are within a certain range (obviously *facepalm*).
Survivor is working on an objective within the range -- Don't pause the hook timer.
Killer caused timer to pause but they left the range -- Resume the hook timer.
Killer Re-enters the range after maxing the accumulator -- Re-pause the hook timer.
Killer Re-enters the range after maxing the accumulator AND is chasing a survivor -- Continue the hook timer.
Summary:
This issue has obviously been present for years, just like how immediately being able to knock down a survivor who was just taken off a hook without borrowed time was. It was obviously gameplay abuse -- and the solution for it was literally already implemented -- just like now with Kinship. A literal feature was created to combat gameplay abuse and it's being handed to survivors as an 'option'; As in, "Just in case you think you may face a killer who egregiously camps add this perk to your already limited perk slot so you can run across the map to use it just for your teammates to immediately take them of the hook since you're in a chase now." The game literally penalizes killers for staying within certain range of hooked survivors. In end game I don't think there is anything wrong with posting up in a basement with one or more survivors to make sure you get a sacrifice, it sucks but survivors usually have all the leverage at that point. But to allow a killer to hard camp at the beginning of the game, as if there isn't several generators that still need to be completed, it's literally unreasonable. Nobody has time to coordinate protection hits because the killer is waiting for you to grab so they can just immediately pick you up too. Everything needed to stop the abuse of this hook mechanic is literally present, it's time to just take action and give everyone a more consistently enjoyable experience.
Comments
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We get people posting this exact solution every few months for the past 6 years.
It was tested long ago and was a total failure as survivor abused it. That's why it hasn't been implemented.
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Not this again 😐️ We know it did not work
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Here we go…
survivors abused that mechanic so no
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I wouldn't mind seeing a PTB with this feature tested.
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This was tested literally 5 or 6 years ago.
The game was actually extremely Survivor-sided then.
It should be tested again today. Maybe it results in the same, maybe it's a viable solution. Th game is so different now that I think it's worth testing it in a PTB, what harm could come from it?
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I don't want to be punished for survivors playing ring-around-the-rosie on the hooked teammate. No.
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I wouldn't mind it being tested again but even though the game has changed a lot since then the fundamental reasons it did not work then have not changed. There would need to be quite a bit of other significant changes to come with it simultaneously to realistically expect a different result.
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You have reassurance as a perk and a few perks that increase unhooking speeds. You have options to counter camping already.
Not to mention that most killers a team of survivors can body block and perform a hook trade against.
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And gen repair should get a -15% action speed per different gen that gets worked at, when splitting up.
Of course not, but neither is your idea solving the camping problem. I recently noticed that I need to tunnel hard from the start of the matches to even have a somewhat chance to be successful, survivors are just incredible efficient since the HUD overhaul and splitting up on gens is so painfully good. Its like the GOAT tactic for survivors, the foil to tunneling, and its equally as fun, but at the moment there is nothing we can do about, so seeth, mald, adapt.
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Sure go and implement it, but don't expect any positive results if you don't compensate killer on the chase/gen speed front.
Casual killer will ultimately completely die out and you will be left with the sweatiest of tryhards and survivor switching over to killer, playing until they also either quit or tryhard to the max.
Just go for it.
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Gens Block while repairing in Killer Radius, can?
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This is a lot of conditionals when there is an even simpler solution, with less room for edge case problems: every hook stage should be the same as base gen time.
Every time you increase the base gen time without increasing the hook timer, camping becomes more powerful and efficient by default. That was a big mistake in 6.1, where gen times increased, but hook stages stayed the same. Unsurprisingly, camping and tunneling also got worse.
Even with more time, survivors are still under pressure to rescue, but the killer is now wasting precious time watching someone die if they choose to stay near the hook.
The only solutions for camping and tunneling aren't punishment, but making those strategies less efficient than applying pressure elsewhere.
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Incentivize leaving the hook and more killers will leave the hook.
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Only if they buff killers along with it
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They tried it and survivors exploited it
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Do you understand why it didn't work back then?
Also we don't even need to retest the original solution as basically the same result was reached when Rebecca's perk was on ptb that literally does the exact same thing just on a time limit.
If the hook timer stops whenever the killer stays near the hook you cause two sets of problems.
- You increase the amount of time people stay on the hook unable to engage with the game in anyway.
- Survivors will rightly make the strategic call in overwhelming numbers to engage in actions that keep the killer near the hook for the longest amount of time possible so they can keep the hooked survivor alive and allow a teammate to progress the game unopposed.
That's the problem with this solution and why it doesn't work. It's a solution that turns into a pure strategic advantage for one party and lose/lose for the other and that is before we get into the hooked survivor being trapped. People who camp on purpose will camp no matter what which also isn't solved by pausing the timer. The people harmed the most are the folks who get stuck on hook because rather than getting the option to wait or exit game on hook they are just permastuck. This almost instantly turned into duos and trios sandbagging their rando teammate and strategic pawn/grief. It wasn't effective in the least at solving the problem and just created new problems.
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Because trying to punish killers for their strategies has worked super well so far. What's that, another "TUNNELING IS WORSE THAN EVER" video on youtube, after basekit BT?
This just makes killers double down. Also if the hook timer pauses then I can effectively hold you hostage as Bubba in the basement.
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Yea I can see it now
Loop the killer near the hook survivors while two people work on gens.
We have two perks that counters camping, in a way, which is Kingship and Reassurance.
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That's exactly what they did.
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The reason why it was not a good solution back then is because some survivor loops were literally infinite. That's the only reason it could be abused. In modern DBD, you could loop the killer near the hook and you'd run out of resources quite fast.
The amount of intellectual dishonesty on this forum is astounding. It is obvious that OP's solution is not perfect as-is, but it's not hard to come up with something reasonable, like hook timer getting slowed down by ~33% the closer the killer is or something. Even the solution proposed by OP as-is is by far better than what we have now, but sure let's keep doing nothing until only SWFs are left playing this game.
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This creates way more problems then it solves
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I'm one of those who has also proposed this and it seems strange to me that the hook camping is a thing. Most of the responses
1: Survivors will camp near the hook
Okay, find and hit them- also as OP suggested hook timer keeps running if survivors nearby
2: Survivors will loop near the hook
Find and catch them - also as OP suggested hook timer keeps running if survivors nearby
3: Survivors will hold the survivor on hook permanently
This is a legitimate worry, but an easy solution, allow them to try and escape (stage 1) and have them still need to make skill check saves (stage 2) that they can fail
4: Reassurance exists
DLC perk, helps the team by giving them more time to do gens, but the person on the hook suffers
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All that said, there is a much simpler solution - just remove hook grabs. It wouldn't solve Bubba, but every other killer would really lose the ability to camp.
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"And gen repair should get a -15% action speed per different gen that gets worked at, when splitting up"
I actually did suggest something similar. The problem with the co-op gen speed penalty is that it makes the safest method of doing gens also by far the most effective.
It'd be a neat boost to the killer's ability to apply pressure and slowdown if survivors were pushed more to co-op gen repairs. Finding a gen that's being worked on would interrupt more survivors, and hooking a survivor would slow gen progress a bit more. This would create more dynamic tactical choices for survivors: play it safe and slow, or fast and risky.
The only problem with it is that it'd be a considerable buff to camping and tunnelling. Those need to be addressed because practically every nerf to survivors is a buff that disproportionately affects tunnelling and camping.
Those are the lynchpins to a lot of issues with the game.
EDIT: Fixed a typo. I know survivors splitting up on gens can feel pretty oppressive, but to call it 'fash' is maybe a bit much.
Post edited by Firellius on1 -
Flee the Facility - the Roblox version of Dead by Daylight - uses hook timers effectively but Killers can still camp by standing just outside the zone. However, the timers do allow more trade saves and less grabs during unhook.
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Should honestly be tested again, especiallly with these mentions to prevent survivors abusing it AND with this system deactivated in endgame.
Killers would not be happy but it would be fair.
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If a Killer is camping, there are multiple solutions:
1.) What killer is camping? Is it a Hillbilly/Bubba, Pyramid-Head? = DO GENS
2.) If its a normal M1-Killer like Trapper, go in with 2 survivors. One takes a hit, the other unhooks.
3.) Reassurance
4.) Kinship (no one plays it, try it out with your mates!)
The only issue I can see: Grabs.
If the devs would remove the grabs at the hook, it would help a lot against camping. Besides this, there is nothing to do.
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I think a good counter to this is that the hook timer will resume once the killer is in a chase
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Hey nice, I think this is the first time that we sorta agree on something *high five* So while I just threw that numbers out on a whim, the core of the idea might be something to consider. The high efficiency of splitting up on gens is now the defacto way of playing and the root why you hear the complaint "I finish my first chase in a timely manner with nearly no misplays and still 2 or even 3 gens pop shortly afterwards" so often. Perks like Deadlock can put a tiny stopper on that, but not entirely.
If we would go down your suggestion, then yes, we would need to address the camping and tunneling problem. I have suggested this fairly often in the past, the key here would be to a) give the killer a reason to leave the hook, b) spread the hook stages and c) not hamper themselves or shoot themselves in the foot while doing so.
Old BBQ did wonders in this regard, by giving the killer a secondary objective, ie hooking everyone at least once and after a hooking event showing the killer opportunities that peeled them away from the hook. This is something that we might want as basekit; normally I hate making stuff basekit, as it solidifies the meta even more, but this is a special case. In the past, every killer had equipped BBQ for the bloodpoints and its actually main effects gave them reason to roam around. So how about this: after hooking a survivor the killer gets the old +25% bonus to bloodpoints per survivor hooked, to a max of +100%, but only if all survivors are alive, so if you tunnel someone out you are stuck with +25%. Secondly, show the killer at basekit one aura of a survivor at least 32m away AND give the killer a sizable speed boost as long as they move into the general direction of that prompt, arent entering any chase and the speed boost goes away once they enter a 16m radius to their target. So in essence give even slow killers the means to pursue a new target and give them a reason to leave the hook, without killing the survivor out.
On a side grade, we could actually make Reassurance good. Give everyone with the perk 3 tokens and they can either burn them all on one player or different ones, but the key being, that there is the potential for the killer for camping being extremely unprofitable. Also, increasing the activation range big time is a no brainer, right now you have to drive by so close that you could actually go for an unsafe unhooking. You should easily be able to reassure someone from 12m away and especially while standing outside of the basement in case of a basement camper.
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no, it's bad change, because there's a lot of situations where camping it's only clever thing for killer to do. (2 or more hooks in basement or just near each other, hook near 3-gen zone, endgame hook, etc). It's basically the same thing as adding passive lock for gens while killer not in chase.
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This is what I'd usually suggest if the change was made, but it just doesn't work in the long run.
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It was tested? As far as I know, the only solution that was tested was for the hook timer being paused and that's it. Where all other additional conditions for the hook timer to be paused a part of that test as well? Or not?
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This content has been removed.
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It still wouldnt work out. You will inevitably face SWFs or smart players who will take advantage of that to prevent killer progress. If it's at a specific ratio from killer to hooked surv then there'd be specifics to consider.
For example, if it's a small distance such as 4m to 8m then the killer can just stand at a distance. Setting it to be longer would be problematic for other structures surrounding the hook. You could sincerely not want to facecamp or proxy camp but chasing a surv in a nearby loop would make the timer paused. That seriously puts you at a disadvantage as killer. There's many more situations to consider and "fixing maps" won't make them all equally balanced.
There's better ways of discouraging facecamping. This idea sounds good on paper but it would be a travesty.
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It was essentially survivor and killer near hook it pauses, generally speaking.
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When either a survivor or killer is near a hook it pauses?
But then how is that even remotely the same as the suggestions made in this post? In that case, what OP suggested has not been tested yet, and it would be smart to actually test this type of system. Why claim something has already been tested if it hasn't?
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That essentially is what he proposed.
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No, he proposed a bunch of additional conditions that would prevent survivors from abusing this mechanic, the exact reason why the system that was once tested wasn't added to the game.
So OP pretty much suggested a bunch of additional conditions that could very well fix the problems the old system had, and yet you are saying there is no need to test it because it's pretty much the same?
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That is not true. If anything, the survivor on the hook would need some way to accelerate the hook phase timer, but that's it. They already can in phase 1.
But these changes would help survivor teams win much more easily against camping killers.
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No it wouldn't? OP added as a seperate condition that the hook timer shouldn't pause when a survivor is also within the range of the hooked survivor.
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This is such a bad idea, So they just camp the hooked until eternity?
Why? because you absolutely refuse to let the Killer get you if he uses all his power and energy on you alone?
Seems like a lot of work, a lot of complications when you can just hang out to buy your team time while they do gens.
What's the purpose of this, so you can hang on a hook for 45min?
Seems like this would just waste people's time.
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He did propose a few extra caveats for abuse but it looks like the core issues would still be in place from before. Like I said earlier though I’m down for them testing it on the PTB I just don’t think we’d see different results and even if we did there would still need to be a substantial amount of other changes implemented simultaneously to make it a good change for the game overall.
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Tbf team body blocking is no longer an option against a facecamping bubba - the one who is the most notorious for camping
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That is incorrect.
What happened in the past was that teams would just use two people to keep the killer occupied with staying around the hook. They wouldn't even really try to engage in chases they would just threaten to make the save and then run way. See the issue was that the proximity for camping detection was well understood pretty quick. Survivors would stand and run around the bare edge of the range where you could keep the hook timer paused. Psychologically, the killer would still be trying to effectively play the game, but the survivors were now in possession of a tactical advantage that functionally stims from that type of mental stunlock.
It had little to do with infinite loops because you weren't hard looping to begin with. You just needed to keep the killer within a what was a fairly generous detection area to be counted as "camping" even though they were actually actively trying to play the game. Meanwhile the hooked survivor is stuck and the one survivor who is not engaged in baiting the killer is doing gens opposed. It was legit just unfun in every metric.
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So the facecamper would win in that scenario and make this suggested change useless.
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