Save the Best for Last needs to be *adjusted*
Despite STBFL being known as a healthy perk, there's actually many significant problems with it. If you are going to criticize any of these points, then please be constructive instead of just saying some "it's a healthy perk entitled survivor source trust me bro" nonsense.
- Works well on a variety of killers
Despite people arguing that STBFL is "only good on the weaker killers" ...this just isn't the case. STBFL is good on spirit, hag, wesker, demogorgon, deathslinger, nemesis, etc. None of whom are in the bottom tier of killers.
- Even if it was only good on the weaker killers...
That is a band aid and serves as a terrible way to balance weaker killers without actually addressing their design flaws and avoids the problem. Perks should never be balanced in a way that's like "oh it's fine because this killer sucks without it" or "it's the only thing making this killer playable." If it's the only thing making some killers viable, then perhaps those killers need to be made more viable at base instead of being forced to run a perk to do so.
- Killers with special attack flexibility deny the obsession of the intended counterplay
This problem is obviously much more niche than the entirety of killers that can use STBFL, but it is still an issue nonetheless and one that has an obvious solution. Killers like demogorgon, deathslinger, pig, trapper, wesker, and nemesis can completely ignore the counterplay that the survivor team is supposed to have by design. I honestly believe this is an oversight, as many of these killers didn't exist the last time the perk was updated
- Completely stomps solo players
This perk against solos is genuinely gross, it's completely unrealistic to expect the randomly chosen obsession to know what they need to do to counter the perk, and that's only if they even realize it's being used in the first place. This perk should notify the obsession in some way.
- Makes camping and tunneling extremely free
Despite what some people will say...no, getting to 8 stacks is not that difficult at all, especially since it becomes easier to get stacks the more you get, and you don't even need the absolute maximum to for it to still be very effective. I think it's very obvious how this perk makes camping and tunneling so free, even if the obsession takes hits, you only lose a maximum of four tokens, which is still very effective especially since it immediately goes up to 5 when you hit someone who's, say, going for the unhook. Camping with enough stacks of STBFL pretty much guarantees a free kill with zero counterplay, something which absolutely not exist so long as free escapes aren't meant to exist.
I am not advocating for a flat nerf to this perk per se, since it's generally balanced under the circumstances it was somewhat designed for (used to help an m1 killer in chases while having counterplay when against competent survivors who know about it), but these problems with it are very significant and should be addressed somehow, perhaps with a full rework of the perk. I have a suggestion for a rework that probably isn't perfect, but should make it more reasonable and consistent for both sides.
- Cooldown on successful basic attacks is not reduced until reaching a max of x (probably around 4) tokens
- Upon reaching x tokens, cooldown on successful basic attacks is reduced by y% (probably around 50)
- All tokens are immediately lost when the obsession loses a health state from a basic or special attack
- The obsession is notified when x tokens are reached
- Maybe tokens cannot be lost until x tokens are reached?
This would hopefully serve to make STBFL are more realistic pick on a wider variety of killers, while also making it much more reasonable to counter when necessary. I feel as though the buff would serve to make up for the nerf, and overall I think would make the perk more interesting and fast paced. I'm not saying this idea is definitely a perfect stbfl rework, it's just something that popped into my head, if it would be bad in practice I wouldn't be shocked or anything.
Let me know what u think of these points, and please, be constructive dammit!
Edit 1: Let me make clear, I don't think this perk is "OP," just problematic. I also don't think it's problematic at the highest levels of play, but for everything below that it definitely is, and comp level dbd shouldn't be the only skill levels considered.
Comments
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If you take away my STBFL, my Onryo will riot.
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Buff Sadako
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Imagine playing trapper with stbfl and bloody coils and just losing all your tokens for it
Or better yet, Nemesis and zombie hitting the obsession
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STBFL is fine. It's really not that common because many killers simply don't benefit much from it and sometimes you get games where the obsession is the easiest target.
It has situations where it is strong and that's fine because those situations don't really happen that often.
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Good point, could perhaps only be on direct attacks, I just said when the obsession loses a health state since idk how exactly special attacks are counted or if they're separate from stuff like what u mentioned, also really not that sure about the idea I'm kinda just spitballing, I figure it's better than just saying "fix this" and refusing to elaborate yk?
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It is the 7th most used killer perk according to nightlight, which is not 100% accurate but accurate enough to say stbfl definitely is a frequently used perk. Many killers do benefit from it and the benefit it gives to camping and tunneling are undeniable, something which killers are doing very often lately and definitely isn't "not that common"
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If a killer is tunneling or xamping a survivor out then they don't have many stacks. Especially if the Killer has a power that inflicts damage.
And yes many killers don't benefit from it. Nurse and blight shouldn't be landing many m1s and they are considered the best killers in the game. Leatherface and huntress are threatening campers due to their powers. Wesker is good at tunneling because of his infection.
People really love to overstate how much stbfl actually does.
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You can start tunneling or camping once you have enough stacks, which can be gotten quickly enough to be significant pretty easily. And I'm aware many killers don't benefit from it but there's still many killers that DO, which has no reason to be ignored just because it isn't all of them. People really like to understate how much STBFL actually does
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And most gens if not all should be done if the Killer is going around trying to stack up stbfl before committing to a camp or tunnel. Just because you apparently don't know how to hold m1 on a generator as a killer builds up the 8 stacks with purely m1 hits is not the fault of the perk.
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Like I said, its really not that hard to get stacks quick enough for it to make a big difference. You can very easily just get stacks off the first survivor, hook them, go get stacks off of other survivors, come back with 3-4 stacks (which does help a lot), get more stack(s) from tunneling them, etc. Unless you're up against an alpha swf this is indeed a problem
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If a killer hooks the survivor and goes off to get more stacks, that's not camping or tunneling.
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If a killer comes back to hook after the survivor gets unhooked, that is tunneling. If a killer camps once they have all the stacks they need to secure a kill with no counterplay, that is camping.
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You specfically said that they get a hook and go off to get more stacks. You are basically saying that the perk promotes killers to not early game tunnel or camp in order to get 8 stacks.
I don't think you realize how slow building up 8 stacks from purely m1 hits is in the current meta. Especially when you have to ignore the obsession to not lose stacks and that's just asking for the obsession to start body blocking you.
Not to mention that there are already killers who can easily camp/tunnel the first survivor they find without needing to hit 8 m1s for a single perk.
The perk is literally not a problem.
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no, i said they go off to get more stacks and then come back to hook when they get unhooked. that is tunneling. also i do realize how fast it actually is, ive used the perk before and really its not that hard, especially since it gets easier to get them as u build it up. and those other things are ALSO problematic, but this post is about stbfl specifically. and even the camping/tunneling part of it arent a problem w it (which they are), the other things mentioned still absolutely are
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I think it’s fine if stacks lost also apply it the obsession loses a health state regardless of M1 or killer power.
However changes to the perk should only be made after the weaker M1 killers are buffed accordingly.
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As a survivor main, I don't really agree with this post.
1, 8 stacks indeed take a lot of time. Observant obsession should have enough time (and it's quite noticeable after 2 stacks), that STBFL is in play. Even if killer has M2 that can damage to circumvent loosing stacks, he can't use that one while carrying someone to the hook.
2, I think there's just 1 killer, that really needs the perk and nobody else NEEDS it. That killer is Deathslinger. Nobody else is in a situation where the game can't be played without the perk (even DS can be played without it and win, he's just much weaker).
3, in your example you mentioned strong killers that have very good synergy with the perk - and I think you missed the mark in here with some killers. Like Wesker is IMO bad example - you want to maximize your slowdown which means you want to M2 over M1 every time possible = you will not have stacks. Similarly Nemesis wants to be T2 ASAP and going for T3, because his whip is much more powerful then M1 (provided survivors are already infected), hag should not chase as she is 110% killer - she should trap survivors. Her chasing survivor (getting value of low CD from stacked STBFL) is playing her wrong (meaning you will be loosing a lot).
4, It's true that once it's fully stacked, it's much easier to camp (or even tunnel) with the perk. But that's like intended behavior. It's like saying adrenaline is unfair, because it provides strong effect IF survivors get to an endgame AND are being chased while injured. You just have to make sure to not come to that situation. Or if you do, then make sure to get out of that situation in a reasonable way (send obsession to bodyblock and stuff).
That being said, I think it would be reasonable to:
a, give soloQ a little buff against this perk where obsession would indeed get some kind of hint the perk is in the play once say 4 stacks are accumulated. In soloQ there's a very good possibility that obsession will just not see the hit and never get a chance to know they should take hits.
b, if healing nerfs go thru, adjust this perk a lot to make it much worse. Taking hits as an obsession would no longer be viable counter against this perk, as getting back health would take waaaay too long. Meaning the perk would become all benefits for no risk (it would even be worth it to hit obsession, because it would take longer to heal then to get those stacks back).
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1. 8 stacks doesn't take too much time when playing your cards right, especially when considering that the more stacks u have the easier it is to get them. Switching from target to target makes it pretty reliable to snowball and u can viably start committing to chases when at around 4 stacks (or often even before then), which isn't all that hard to get to initially. Also the obsession either makes u lose only 2 stacks, or they make u lose 4 but they go down. Either way it's usually very insignificant (especially relative to how significant the obsession going down is) if u already have a good amount of tokens.
2. I also don't think any killer really needs it per se, but I think there is a bit of a problem with how long it can take to catch up after an m1, and this perk is kinda a band aid to that problem
3. Wesker can get one hit via m2, and the other via m1. That means u only get tokens at half the rate, but considering Wesker's good chase and slowdown, I think it's made up for. Once nemesis gets to his tier 2 (which won't usually take a craaaazy amount of time) it'll generally be preferable to get an m1 when given the chance. Hag isn't exactly a great stbfl user, but it still is useful for spending less time being vulnerable to survivors harassing your traps, and for camping which hag is very good at.
4. I think the real point of the perk is to generally assist in chase, if it's all intended to greatly aid in camping and tunneling then I would just have to disagree with the developers. And once you're in that situation there's not really any getting out, since losing 2 stacks to the obsession taking a hit becomes less significant the more tokens u were at initially. It may not be a problem that needs addressing by changing the perk, since tunneling is its own problem, but just in general stbfls tunneling potential is certainly problematic
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Save has counter play with m2 killers. For Demo you want to basically just starve him of stacks. You either run strong tiles to force m2's or weak ones to force m1's. Slinger is a bit different here but you can still afk the chain and make him take much longer for the injure if there isn't an object nearby.
I think showing the survivors the killer has the perk once the killer hits 4 stack would be fair. That speed increase is enough for survivors to see that the killer has it and would make it equal to a 4 man on comms. That way at least the survivors have the same info as swf and can try and make better decisions around that info.
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STBFL is not that good on Wesker, no more than most M1 killers. If he wants to preserve his stacks, his special gives out a very noticeable audio cue and if he misses (especially the second time) he's in a nasty position most of the time if he wants to continue chase. Compare to Nemesis, who's no worse than if he misses a basic attack and can potentially hit across a loop, and Demogorgon, who...I don't need to explain the dog, right?
Also Trapper relies on luck to conserve his and I don't even know why he's on this list of killers that can easily ignore the counter.
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I think STBFL is fine as I disagree with most of your issues you take with it.
Most those killers you mentioned aren't that strong bar Wesker which how many Weskers have you actually seen run STBFL? I've never even seen one, doesn't sound that OP. It isn't really good on Spirit.
Killers with special attack capability are typically the only ones you see run STBFL because it isn't that good otherwise. This isn't a flaw that they are able to get around it, it's the only way it gets really good. This is players utilizing the strengths of the killer abilities and perk synergy. This is a good thing. Plus most of those special attacks are much harder to land than a simple m1 so it takes more skill to be forced to use that for your injure against the obsession even when it's not the best choice.
Everything is good against solos more than swf. This is a universal thing and not a reason to change STBFL. It's not too strong against them either. The main thing making STBFL strong isn't because someone on coms can tell his obsession teammate to go body block, it's synergy with a killer power allowing them to avoid losing stacks that's mainly making it strong.
It does not making camping and tunneling free. 8 stacks are not free or easy. You had to do a lot to get them.
Your change for the perk heavily punishes the killers against swf or even just a solo group with common sense as they can tell you're running it. So I'm the Obsession, what's to stop me from body blocking the killer ad nauseum from my teammates and rendering that perk useless? This would make the perk ridiculously bad.
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u cant reliably force m2s unless youre on a totally insane map and/or the survivors are really REALLY good, and most situations where u can m1 the obsession u can also m2 them.
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so you think they arent reliable chases powers bc the survivors can just dodge? im sorry but thats just not true
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ive run stbfl on wesker and spirit myself and its very good, more than good enough to disprove the perk being "only good on the weaker killers." and these special attack flexibility killers being able to completely invalidate the counterplay to the perk is not good, its an oversight, and not necessary to get very good value out of the perk at all. i can understand the point of everything being stronger against solos than swfs, but i do think stbfl goes beyond the average in this regard since it relies on the obsession knowing what to do to be countered. 8 stacks are not hard to get to at all, 8 m1s in no way warrants a free kill and i would just have to disagree if you thought otherwise.
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Ok is it a issue with skill or knowledge? I would argue it is knowledge. Like if we go to a longwall tile you can play the long or short side. If you play the short side how am I able to m2? Or Ormand with the junk tiles vs strong tiles. If you want me to m2 you then you stay at the strong tiles vs wanting m1 would be at the junk ones.
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I don't think anyone says it's "only" good on weaker killers, just generally good on many of the weaker killers. I disagree on Spirit.
"these special attack flexibility killers being able to completely invalidate the counterplay to the perk is not good, its an oversight, and not necessary to get very good value out of the perk at all."
It is generally necessary to get good value. That's why it's typically the only killers you see using it. None m2 capable killers can run it to some okay use, but not enough to generally be considered good enough to run against most other things.
"i can understand the point of everything being stronger against solos than swfs, but i do think stbfl goes beyond the average in this regard since it relies on the obsession knowing what to do to be countered"
This has absolutely nothing to do with solos at all. You're literally talking about bad vs good players. Solo is irrelevant here. If I'm in solo queue and I see this I abuse it to remove his stacks. Who doesn't know about removing obsession hits with STBFL? This is talking about new players. Everything's good against new players that don't know what they're doing.
"8 stacks are not hard to get to at all, 8 m1s in no way warrants a free kill and i would just have to disagree if you thought otherwise."
It is, especially against good players. 8 stacks also does not get you a free kill.
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How is that not true? You get plenty of warning that you need to start being less predictable.
You can't just say "nO ur rong" and leave it at that.
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STBFL is fine as is. If weaker killers need it then BUFF them.
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"It is generally necessary to get good value." No, it's not. Just ignore the obsession it really isn't hard.
"If I'm in solo queue and I see this I abuse it to remove his stacks." Except you usually aren't going to see it because they're not going to want to chase you, and therefore you're never gonna know that you need to take hits.
"It is, especially against good players. 8 stacks also does not get you a free kill. This just makes no sense." If by especially you meant only then maybe I would agree, also there is no way to rescue against someone camping with a lot of STBFL stacks, it's just not doable unless you're literally right next to a gate.
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My point exactly, change STBFL and buff killers that relied on it
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You're basically saying that these attacks are less viable than an m1, but they just aren't. Just as the survivors can dodge you can easily just hit them where ever they're going to dodge. These killers do in fact have a power believe it or not.
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"It is generally necessary to get good value." No, it definitely is not. Just ignore the obsession and you're good, and even if you don't you only lose go down to 4 stacks from 8, which is way less significant than the obsession straight up going down.
"Solo is irrelevant here. If I'm in solo queue and I see this I abuse it to remove his stacks." Except you're not going to see it because they're not going to chase you, making the only way for you to realistically know about it being your teammates telling you. + If you just keep taking hits over and over and over again...at one point you're just gonna die, which puts the killer at a very advantageous spot.
"It is, especially against good players. 8 stacks also does not get you a free kill." If by especially you meant only, then maybe I agree. But in generally getting m1s is really not that difficult, especially since getting them is easier the more stacks you get. Also when a killer with a lot of STBFL tokens camps someone on hook, there's literally just nothing you can do to rescue, there just isn't, unless you're directly next to an exit gate.
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"No, it definitely is not. Just ignore the obsession and you're good"
You downplay significantly how difficult that can be against a swf.
"Except you're not going to see it because they're not going to chase you, making the only way for you to realistically know about it being your teammates telling you. + If you just keep taking hits over and over and over again...at one point you're just gonna die, which puts the killer at a very advantageous spot."
You can see the killer in chases to know he's running it. Taking hits over and over is irrelevant with how fast heals are currently, hence why people do it.
"f by especially you meant only, then maybe I agree. But in generally getting m1s is really not that difficult, especially since getting them is easier the more stacks you get."
So you're stance is that getting m1's is only easy against bad players? So the perk is only "OP" by you if the players are bad? What's the issue then? If the players are bad they should be punished.
"Also when a killer with a lot of STBFL tokens camps someone on hook, there's literally just nothing you can do to rescue, there just isn't, unless you're directly next to an exit gate."
Much harder? Yes. Nothing you can do? Absolutely no. You can still outplay a STBFL at hook. Rarely is a killer sitting at 8 stacks on a hook anyway, that isn't common.
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"Just hit with your power lol" isn't a good argument either!
How do you "Just hit" with a ######### bear trap!?!
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With trapper yeah I agree it's inconsistent, but with the other killers you mentioned, wesker nemesis and demo, yeah, just hit your power
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You don't just "Hit your power" with Wesker.
Ya know what, I see what the real argument is.
"I suck against this perk, please overnerf it to oblivion like everything else I suck against BHVR".
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"You downplay significantly how difficult that can be against a swf." Most survivors are solos
"You can see the killer in chases to know he's running it. Taking hits over and over is irrelevant with how fast heals are currently, hence why people do it." You will not always just see the killer in chases, that isn't reliable at all. Also no, that's not irrelevant because the killer can just get the down while the obsession is healing or get the down on the obsession since the cooldown will only be that of 6 stacks on the first hit, and then down to 4 when downing, and then back up to 8 in quite honestly no time.
"So you're stance is that getting m1's is only easy against bad players? So the perk is only "OP" by you if the players are bad? What's the issue then? If the players are bad they should be punished." There's more skill levels than just good and bad you know? When I say good I mean the highest level, but even if the survivors are relatively "good" like if they're good or average and you're average or bad respectively, it really isn't difficult. M1s are only crazy hard to get against crazy high level teams which you basically never see.
"Much harder? Yes. Nothing you can do? Absolutely no. You can still outplay a STBFL at hook. Rarely is a killer sitting at 8 stacks on a hook anyway, that isn't common." Uh, no, it isn't possible. The killer will literally catch up in no time especially with part of your speed boost and the killer's attack cooldown taking place during the unhook animation, not to mention body blocking is basically pointless. And that's cool that it's not all that common for you, but for me like 80% of STBFL users I go against do this, it can't be said that it's just not common whatsoever.
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Uh yeah you do bro, sounds way more like "I suck at Wesker" than "I suck against this perk"
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Survivors: bhvr pls nerf the generator regression perks so killers take chase perks
BHVR: nerf killers generator perks
Survivors: it's good now that the killers do not have perks for generators, nerf the perks for the chase
You will never have enough yes?
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you could literally make the same argument about a perk that makes chases take 2 seconds. chase perk =/= unproblematic. please actually address one of the points i made if you're going to disagree
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
and your argument revolves around wesker nemesis and demos power being useless because "survivors can just dodge," it's literally a skill issue.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
can you actually address any of the points i made?
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I brought them up as examples and you responded with Trapper of all killers being part of that list!
It all boils down to "I don't like this perk".
Post edited by EQWashu on2 -
What you did is say "oh you can't hit the obsession with your special attack, they can just dodge," you just aren't good at the killers, insane hypocrisy to act like my point boils down to anything lol
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
Keep blaming your own skill issue on the game lol so obvious please actually get good and then talk
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I'm not gonna be told to "git gud" by someone who doesn't know how to dodge a charge.
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stbfl is meant to be a niche perk though? it's already "bad" just because it uses the obsession mechanic.
i don't think changing values will change its overall issues - which are only issues if one deems them so.
the current version in my opinion is fine.
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current stbfl is not bad at all tho?
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Stepping in for a second to remind everyone to keep the discussion civil and respectful, please. It's ok to constructively disagree with others and their suggestions or opinions, but please remember there is no reason to bite at one another when doing so. Thank you.
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apologies, its been a rough day
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Even if it was only good on the weaker killers...
That is a band aid and serves as a terrible way to balance weaker killers without actually addressing their design flaws and avoids the problem. Perks should never be balanced in a way that's like "oh it's fine because this killer sucks without it" or "it's the only thing making this killer playable." If it's the only thing making some killers viable, then perhaps those killers need to be made more viable at base instead of being forced to run a perk to do so.
BVHR does not buff killers and big part of a lot of killer design flaws is there ability to be body-blocked.
"It is, especially against good players. 8 stacks also does not get you a free kill." If by especially you meant only, then maybe I agree. But in generally getting m1s is really not that difficult, especially since getting them is easier the more stacks you get. Also when a killer with a lot of STBFL tokens camps someone on hook, there's literally just nothing you can do to rescue, there just isn't, unless you're directly next to an exit gate.
The idea that there is nothing you can do to rescue is not true. Unhooking takes 1 second and recovery time takes 1.8 second at 8 stacks. you definitely still bodyblock killer with 8 stacks in the end game. This is straight from wiki.
Killers with special attack flexibility deny the obsession of the intended counterplay
This problem is obviously much more niche than the entirety of killers that can use STBFL, but it is still an issue nonetheless and one that has an obvious solution. Killers like demogorgon, deathslinger, pig, trapper, wesker, and nemesis can completely ignore the counterplay that the survivor team is supposed to have by design. I honestly believe this is an oversight, as many of these killers didn't exist the last time the perk was updated
The perk being able to be countered is inherit design flaw in the perk. The fact that STBFL decreases stacks by bodyblocking means that SWF can exploit the perk more then anyone. This by default means that all weaker killer who can potentially lose to SWF-bodyblocking will never be able to remotely compete vs SWF because SWF exploiting the perk.
Completely stomps solo players
This perk against solos is genuinely gross, it's completely unrealistic to expect the randomly chosen obsession to know what they need to do to counter the perk, and that's only if they even realize it's being used in the first place. This perk should notify the obsession in some way.
Sounds like excuse more then an argument.
Works well on a variety of killers
Despite people arguing that STBFL is "only good on the weaker killers" ...this just isn't the case. STBFL is good on spirit, hag, wesker, demogorgon, deathslinger, nemesis, etc. None of whom are in the bottom tier of killers.
The killer does not need to be bottom tier for the perk to improve the killer.
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