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Remember: If you don't see an exhaustion perk, tunnel right off of hook.
If there was one thing that might have salvaged this update even after the healing nerfs were reverted, it was the death of DH.
Now that that's clear that that won't be happening ("a powerful reward for those who have earned it", they said), and it will instead be just as powerful as before, except that it can't be used during first chase, killers need a solution. Luckily, we have one:
If you don't see an exhaustion perk during the first chase, proxy camp the hook and hit them as soon as they're unhooked.
It's not ideal, but it still means that they can't use DH at pallets/windows later on in chase, and it's a legitimate counter. Ironically, BHVR's stated intention in buffing the perk was that killers would be less inclined to do this exact thing when it's the only counter, but hey.
If it turns out they didn't have DH after all, at least you're going to get a survivor out of the game early, and it's still likely that they might not have enough time to get to a safe loop by the time they're downed again.
(PR is still C-tier even at 25%; feel free to ask me why.)
Comments
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No, I don't think I will.
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Lots of people seem to be going with this line of reasoning and I just don't get it.
Why aren't you playing this way in the game right now? You could have a 100% certainty that someone has DH because you hit it on the first chase. You could absolutely deny it for future chases by just proxy camping the hook and hitting them when they come off.
If you're going to camp, okay, but I don't see why the possibility of new DH makes that more likely than old DH.
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E
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I'm playing the game to win. And with these changes, the counter to dead hard still remains to be, hard tunnel the dead hard guy off the hook, going out of your way to hit them right off of it, or quickly, so they get the deep wounds. Then you only deal with one health state.
Instead, dead hard should either be entirely reworked, or it should have to be EARNED in a way that DISCOURAGES tunneling, and actively encourages healthy gameplay from both sides.
My general proposal is to keep dead hard as is, but it works like mettle of man, so no deep wound shenanigans. Then make it so dead hard is not active, then if you are injured for 30 seconds, it activates and lets you use it. Once you heal, or are downed, it deactivates. This rewards killers for downing survivors quickly in a chase, and encourages survivors to play well (can't just hold w) and actually mindgame the killer.
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I'm playing the game to win. And with these changes, the counter to dead hard still remains to be, hard tunnel the dead hard guy off the hook, going out of your way to hit them right off of it, or quickly, so they get the deep wounds.Okay, go ahead.
This rewards killers for downing survivors quickly in a chase, and encourages survivors to play well (can't just hold w) and actually mindgame the killer.I didn't realize it was you in both posts, you don't want to talk nurse or blight, so I'll point out that with your idea if a survivor really does a great job of looping, he gets to stomp the killer even harder. If I loop the killer for 30 seconds, I basically now get to loop the killer for an additional 30 seconds. On the other hand if I'm only capable of looping the killer for 20 seconds, no bonus. It rewards the good while penalizing the bad, which is not a good concept for a perk.
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Why am I not doing this all the time right now?
Because, right now, it usually makes more sense to leave the hooked survivor so I can go find a gen to kick.
In the new meta, gens are going to be flying, and there's very little I can do about that, so it's better to focus on removing a survivor from the match so I can have a better chance.
I think that they should make it work like original Dead Hard - distance, ability to dodge Trapper's traps, and all - except that it can only activate when a survivor is Broken.
This would both remove DH from most meta playstyles while making No Mither a viable playstyle.
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Even if you do it will still be enough time for the other survivor to get the Safe Unhook score. You are not stopping anything.
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Never had an issue with DH before its 1st nerf, didn't have one after its nerf, and certainly won't have one after this patch.
This entire post is just utterly sad. What a mindset to have.... must be exhausting.
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This isn't bait. I fully plan to hit survivors off of hook from now on unless I see an Exhaustion perk during the first chase, and I encourage everyone else to do the same.
There's not really any incentive not to do this at this point.
In case you haven't been keeping up with the dev notes, they changed DH again since the PTB. Now it activates whenever the survivor who has DH is unhooked or unhooks themselves. That's why this post was made.
In case you did keep up and you meant exactly what you said, I don't care about points; if I got 7K points and everyone else gets 40K points, but I somehow got a 4K, that's good enough. Really doesn't matter to me which survivors got which scoring events; I just want to keep DH from extending the next chase by 30 seconds because they managed to time it right at a pallet in the only area of the map that isn't a deadzone when there's only one gen left.
Yeah, I made fun of people who complained about DH before its first nerf, but then my MMR went up, and I started facing survivors who know how to loop.
Even back then, you're right, it wasn't that big of a deal because I had my Ruin/Undying crutch to fall back on.
But it seems that survivors get to keep all their crutch perks mostly unchanged, and I don't get to keep any of mine; the only thing I can do to keep myself above water is to play without them, which means playing mean and being aggressive.
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words x27
can i get a TL;DR?
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Hey, I haven't seen you in a while hailxsatanxeveryxday, how's it going?
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Pretty much my outlook right now
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Except once again, your strategy won’t work. 🤣🤣🤣 Hitting someone directly off hook isn’t going to activate their DH, it’s going activate basekit BT. All the unhook does is activate the survivors ABILITY TO USE DH just like it does with someone who runs deliverance and unhooks a survivor. Guess what? I still have to be hooked to actively use my deliverance that got activated. DH is still a perk that the survivor has to press their active ability button to use when THEY WANT TO USE IT.
So hitting right off hook is just activating their basekit BT like it already does. Yes you’ll put them into mend state, but if you’re going against any team with competency, (which has always been the major issue with DH) the team is gonna help block you so they can run off and mend and therefore still use their DH.
Tunneling off hook isn’t going to rob someone of their ability to use DH, but since I get the feeling you were already someone who tunnels off hook anyway, please continue. 🤣🤣🤣
Post edited by BougieBlackChick on3 -
Okay cool go ahead nobodys stopping you👍
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Tunneling ez win no skill
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If people already camp then they're still going to camp. Just like if people already tunnel they're still going to. Those who don't do either won't suddenly start because 1 they know they don't need to to win, and 2 they know pressure is the best weapon a killer can have and throwing that away on the slight chance someone has DH is a bit silly
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Well, wasn't the argument for the ptb version that it encouraged the tunnel anyway?
At this point, I mUst camp and tunnel is the default cop out for everything and its opposite.
A change is made ---> it makes me camp and tunnel to counter it. The opposite change is made ---> it makes me camp and tunnel to counter it.
It's always something else that decides, never your volition.
You create the catch 22 in your head and then ride it to justify yourself.
If you want to camp and tunnel, just do it and take responsibility for your choices. Trying the most sideways arguments to rationalize it because you want to feel validated with yourself and others it's just an exercise in futility.
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Seems more effective to simply chase others and disperse pressure, no? I had a match where a Wesker tunneled a single survivor all game long, which caused a 3-man escape. The happens more often than not because leaving three other survivors uninterrupted makes them progress through gens faster. The healing changes are great because it encourage survivors to find one another and heal each other, effectively applying pressure by making sure that at least two survivors arent working on the generators. Learning how to apply this pressure on survivors is part of a killer's skillset, and only tunneling and camping a single survivor almost always ensures a loss for that killer.
Also PR is generally only used around 4 times a match anyway. Therefore using it up to 4 times and causing 1/4th of a gen to be depleted each time is pretty great for that perk. Good for those that want it, but I don't use those kind of perks anyway.
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people just gonna run double exhaustion with DH now. probably balance landing. Some people already did that to begin with
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Playing survivor requires very little skill as well as long as a single survivor has access to around 30 pallets and questionable map design, even if they're already injured from being recently unhooked. They have enough tools at their disposal to loop the killer for 5 gens.
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Well, I already use DS over OTR for this exact reason. So doesn't affect me too much since I always save DH for after DS.
I also use reassurance so if I see this coming I'd extend the hook for others.
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Meh, it depends on the match for me. If a regular player uses DH I don't really mind it. I will still get a hook here and there so it should be less annoying than before.
If it's sweaty SWF squad I'll just go into the basement and go read a book. Have fun playing without a killer.
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I get that response a lot. I grew up in an era when internet forum posts were commonly as long as book chapters. The internet was better that way.
You need to start reading books. You have no idea how much brighter the world gets as your reading comprehension starts to improve.
I'm not immune. I've been lazy lately, but I've been using techniques I learned from a speech therapist and starting to read novels again, and it's helping.
Sleep deprivation on and off to the point of psychosis. Finally popped some of my zyprexa (nasty #########!) which I won't touch under normal circumstances, which knocked me out for 20 hours and left me feeling groggy for another 12, but I'm feeling a little better now.
How are you?
You're wrong about everything.
- Right. Activating "basekit BT" is the idea. You want to hit them before the BT timer is up.
- I've been running Forced Penance in almost every game lately. I Love it with a capital L when survivors try to bodyblock.
- Even if you're not running Forced, no, they won't have time to "run off and mend" if you're even halfway paying attention to the screen. Stay on the main target; the other survivors will follow you and give you free stuff.
- Survivors who try to 3-man bodyblock don't know what they're doing. It doesn't provide much benefit, and it's too easy to get snowballed. If you're still doing that, you're probably still in low MMR. I very rarely see teams that do that anymore, and it usually doesn't end well for them.
- Even if survivors B through D all jump in front of me and take hits - which would, mind you, make me very happy, since they're all off of gens and now injured - that isn't going to buy enough time for survivor A to mend, and even if it did, it's okay, because the slowdown and the extra hits/downs I got out of it are probably worth it.
I'll tunnel off the hook if it's an appropriate thing to do in that situation. Rendering my gen kicks completely useless and not giving me any reason to leave the hook while simultaneously making hard tunneling the only counter to DH means I'm going to hard tunnel.
This is how the game wants me to play, as far as I can tell.
I'm not out to ruin survivors' fun, but if the optimal way to play makes them feel like I'm giving them a big middle finger, that doesn't bother me, either.
We'll see, but I don't think it's a "slight chance".
A lot of the games I've lost recently featured three or four DHs, so I think you're understating how devastating that perk can be against low mobility and M1 killers. Hitting someone off of the hook can be the difference between that survivor dead before the last gen and losing the game.
And since gen regression is gone, it's the most optimal play in most circumstances.
If I stop seeing 1-4 Dead Hards every single match after the update drops, that's that, but I think that the prophesied "Sprint Burst meta" is going to give way only to the "Dead Hard Meta, Chapter III".
I think I've made several posts on this forum to the effect of, "I camp and tunnel because it makes life easier for me". I don't have to justify it.
This post isn't about that, though; this is about a very specific meta change that has a very specific and effective counter. Even people who don't tunnel and camp as a matter of course are going to see this as an option, because it is one.
Yeah, "I camp and tunnel because I have to" is a common copium cop-out, but so are "camping and tunneling is always a cop-out" and "you were probably going to camp and tunnel, anyway"; those are just ways of dancing around the fact that there are times when it's absolutely the correct thing to do, sometimes as the result of some change to a gameplay mechanic or another.
I'm also trying to lightly point out the absurdity of introducing a gameplay mechanic with the stated intention of discouraging a gameplay strategy that it then goes on to directly encourage.
You're partially correct about this. If you're not putting any pressure and survivors are smart enough to do gens, tunneling can bite you in the ass. It's about knowing when to do it.
I'm just saying that if you didn't notice an exhaustion perk, assuming DH stays meta (and of course it will), you gain more by proxy camping the hook (and "proxy camping" means you run off to go pressure a gen real quick while you wait for the unhook).
That's a good point, but if they're wasting an entire perk slot just to use 1-3 of their perks suboptimally, so be it. That probably works out in the killer's favor overall.
If I start seeing this every game, I may very well just starting hitting everyone right off of hook, but I'm not all that worried since it's a pretty bad strategy.
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all credits go to C3Tooth
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I said something to this effect above, but it doesn't mean we should or shouldn't make their game miserable. I'm not advocating trying to ruin survivors' time for its own sake.
It's just, like the picture says, not my responsibility. Losing is rarely a whole lot of fun. If seeing DHs makes me miserable, then I'm not really thinking much about the fact that the only counter to it makes survivors miserable. It's just the nature of the game.
Post edited by hailxsatanxeveryxday on3 -
Exaclty.
They are literally saying: "we will never kill this unfair perk that has been meta since the beginning of the game, so we gave you a new reason to tunnel hard and avoid seeing it 8 times a trial".
And they are doing it with the excuse of "avoiding tunneling".
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Bro, you think every survivor use exhaustion perk? come on
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Great if Pallet generation wasn’t frontloaded at the start of the Trial.
Your suggestion still just makes Dead Hard a pain for Killers that have to chew through Pallets and only really allows counterplay for anti-loop Killers.
I could see it being introduced in the future, so long as Pallets get a rework to be a secondary Objective survivors setup partially during the course of the match, such that the resultant predrop pallets while Injured to by time for Dead Hard meta does also incur a time sink should survivors choose to setup pallets against non-anti loop Killers.
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Oh you mean like losing your first health state by doing a protection hit?
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Nah I would done that if unhooker has dh as well but he won't so I rather go after him now than potentially deal with ds/dh as well. It also for me feels better to win more fair way so that just a bonus.
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Ok, then why aren't you doing this now. This would counter the current DH.
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I appreciate your enthusiasm brother but why would I not be tunneling the first person I hooked 100% of the time anyway?
-"I'm playing the game to win. And with these changes, the counter to dead hard still remains to be, hard tunnel the dead hard guy off the hook"
That's a great strategy if you are using STBFL on a killer that can safely keep the stacks. Most killers that are good in chase/map pressure can't do that.
"Instead, dead hard should either be entirely reworked"
Dead hard would be "fine" if you needed to be unhooked to activate it. That would give you two uses per game. If you can unlock its activation by unhooking someone it might still be "ok" if you only got a max of 2 DH tokens per game. That's the problem though - you can potentially use it a lot more than two times.
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why do you even play this game? you seem to be so miserable playing your chosen role i genuinely don't understand why you would want to continue playing. you're basing an entire playstyle around trying to counter one perk (in the most boring possible way for all people involved, yourself included, i should add)
you can pick up a new game; invest time into playing something you actually enjoy. you haven't wasted time playing DbD, it's not a sunk cost. you played it while it was still enjoyable, you no longer enjoy it, you don't need to play it anymore. i give you permission to spend time finding a new game to play that you enjoy more. it can be a single player game so you can guarantee you don't get matched against players with 5k more hours than you, it can be a symmetrical multiplayer game so you get to have all the same tools as the other team, the world is your oyster.
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-"Survivors who try to 3-man bodyblock don't know what they're doing. It doesn't provide much benefit, and it's too easy to get snowballed. If you're still doing that, you're probably still in low MMR. I very rarely see teams that do that anymore, and it usually doesn't end well for them."
I can say in my personal games this is not true. I often play against people with multiples of 5,000 hours. I saw a game from CM winter recently that shows exactly where this idea fails.
If the survivors have green medkits and a boon then they can cycle hits no problem. This "loophole" is getting closed and that won't be a thing anymore.
The only problem is that I like to run STBFL on a killer that can keep my stacks forever. Punching someone with 5 8 stacks benefits the killer even with mega boons/ green kits. This works because most survivors don't expect a killer to play "attrition" mode. A green medkit right now is great but it runs out of charges.
If the killer can't run STBFL then cycling hits can allow a survivor to get away -depending on the map.
-"A lot of the games I've lost recently featured three or four DHs, so I think you're understating how devastating that perk can be against low mobility and M1 killers."
Most of my losses are against DH and boons. The only time this isn't the case is when I get a complete BS map and the survivors start the game by breaking the only viable 3 gen on the map.
"-"I camp and tunnel because I have to" is a common copium cop-out"
If the survivors play efficiently then you must mirror their aggression or you lose. You won't find most streamers posting the game they got 1-3 hooks and the enemy team got a 4 man escape because it makes them look bad. The reality is they should because it shows the potential that even someone with 9k hours can get floored by survivor teams who make essentially 1-2 mistakes per game (and usually minor ones at that).
Anyone who says otherwise can take my challenge. Play a m1 killer with no mobility/pallet break power and hook each player once before you can ever hook someone twice on a map that is 10,500-11,000m². You're going to have a bad time when the try hard SWF with best in slot items shows up. And of course you can't hook anyone three times until you have hooked each player twice.
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I do not run DH nor any "meta" perks for that matter. I like to challenge myself, meta DBD is incredibly boring and stale to me.
Certain people will not happy until they remove DH ( or whatever perk(s) trigger people this week ) from the game or nerf it to the point it's worthless. That is not probably going to happen.
No perk/skill/item should be nerfed to that point just because a percentage of players want to throw a hissy fit about it and then get on a public forum threatening to ruin everyone else's games because they are not happy.
Not everything is about you, or what you want. You are not BHVR's only customer.
It pains me I have to even get on here and point this out, it seems VERY obvious to me.
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This is the sanest comment I've read on the forums in a while. Thank goodness people like you still exist.
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I think the funniest part of trying to redesign Dead Hard as an anti-tunnel perk is that the perk is stronger if the killer doesn't tunnel unlike DS and OTR which often only give you any value if you do get tunnel.
Personally, I think trying to make DH an anti-tunnel perk is just a bad move. When it was for doing safe unhooks, it meant that after you unhook someone you then should play risky and go after the killer as now you have Dead Hard to soak an additional hit and give the person you just unhooked time to recover. Plus it fit better with David's perk since WGLF also triggers on safe hook saves.
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Me watching as the Nemesis runs across the map to tunnel me (I used Balanced Landing on a map with no great heights):
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All Survivors must declare their Exhaustion perks prior to the start of the trial, else they may face detainment.
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Jesus you people are terrified of a perk that isn't even hard to out play.
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Ngl, sounds like a decent change. Anything works atp
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If you think this game is so stacked against you that you are afraid to leave the hook, why do you keep playing it?
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Nice joke mate
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I think I've made several posts on this forum to the effect of, "I camp and tunnel because it makes life easier for me". I don't have to justify it.You sure seem to be wanting to spend a lot of time trying to justify it.
You can proxy camp the hook if you want, but if you are really intent on hitting the survivor off the hook that's going to be a pretty narrow radius. If you hit another survivor on the way to the tunnel, tunnel target is in DH territory. If you are kicking a gen, tunnel target gets to DH territory. If the unhook is near a vault or pallet, tunnel target gets to DH territory. If its end game and target hits adrenaline, they've got DH. If you hit the target right at the end of BT, that's pretty much the same as DH anyway, except now there is no chance they'll miss it.
I just don't see what the change to the game is. In the live game you should hit targets as they come off the hook if you have the chance. Camping and tunneling are powerful tactics that the survivors can potentially counter. Nothing about that has really changed.
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This content has been removed.
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BHVR: "Borrowed Time is now basekit"
OP: "Imma tunnel"
BHVR: "Dead Hard now activates after being unhooked"
OP: "Imma tunnel"
BHVR: "Pain Res now rewards you for spreading hooks around"
OP: "Imma tunnel"
BHVR: "Medkits are weaker now"
OP: "Imma tunnel"
Just a thought, OP: Have you ever considered not tunneling? What with the devs doing everything in their power to discourage it, and all?
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What with the devs doing everything in their power to discourage it, and all?
Since when?
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Remember:
If you don't see an exhaustion perk,tunnel right off of hook.Fixed that for you.
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No, I haven't. However, for your information:
BT is basekit
I tunneled less, because tunneling actually became less effective. Nothing I loved more than watching a survivor drop two seconds after getting off of the hook. That simple pleasure was stolen from me.
Dead Hard now activates after being unhooked
Yes, this is a good reason to tunnel more.
Pain Res now..
No, this discourages tunneling. It encourages faceamping instead and just hook trading for maximum value.
Medkits are weaker now
Has nothing to do with anything. If anything, this gives me a reason not to tunnel.
Respond to others when I feel like it. Don't put words in my mouth.
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