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Thoughts on April Developer Update
Healing Nerfs- No complaints. Self-healing was the problem, not altruistic healing.
Hillbilly Changes- Good choice. I would consider making Engravings basekit at some point, though.
Dead Hard- Less than ideal. The perk is just Off the Record now, but worse in almost every way. I could see this being used in a Decisive Strike build with OtR, but never being used instead of OtR. That being said, the Live version is way too prevalent and the first PTB version encouraged tunneling, so I don't really have a better idea for a nerf.
I think it's just going to fluctuate between overused and barely usable so long as it remains an activatable Exhaustion perk. I'd rework it to do something completely different, but that's probably off the table for this update.
Pain Resonance- Strongly approve of this. It looks powerful enough to actually be usable now, and I'd gladly run a regression perk that rewards me for not tunneling, if it gave enough value.
Comments
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pain ress woul be very greatfull if they remove it from the scourge perks, just by hook normally with the regression values buffed now, since have 4 tokens.
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Agree pretty much. For pain res I would wanted they increase amount of scourge hooks to get value more often otherwise I like the change.
Dh good change it will encourage going after unhooker.
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Can you please explain to me why just self healing was the problem and not altruistic healing, if you don't mind?
Because I hear everybody saying those exact same words, but not a single one of them have given any reason or explanation for this "fact".
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Considering that you have a solid chance that your token gives you 0% regression, I'd say hardly anyone who knows of the changes will be using this perk. People finish gens all the time just before a hook. That means the next gen in line gets hit which more often than not is well under 25% since most survivors are all group rushing gens.
Absolutely needs scourge requirement removed at this point.
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because it took 8 seconds for you to heal without needing the team's help with med-kit and stacked with coh, denying the pressure of the killer at any time of the match, specially against mid-tier killers (which will start to be felt more now in the middle to the end of the match)
Taking 16s to heal altruistically (or more, if you take into account mangled, hemorrhagic etc) or around 10~12 altruistic with coh/med-kit, is ok for you to take the focus off from the gens (-2 or 3 survivor healing each other), then you differentiate self-heal from altruistic for both to be used correctly and tactically
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Well, one survivor healing themselves can just run off into a corner (While their teammates are free to keep doing gens), heal themselves, and then get right back on gens. Altruistic healing requires two survivors, which effectively means at least twice as much Survivor time is wasted.
It is also risky to group up for any reason, because if the Killer finds you, they disrupt multiple Survivors at once. And if they catch you while healing, they're likely to get a free hit out of it, maybe even a quick down, and the Survivors will have spent all that time trying to heal for nothing.
And speaking personally, when I've played Survivor, I usually end up spending a LOT more time injured after my Medkit is out of charges. Finding a teammate and getting them to heal you can often be challenging in and of itself.
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Because healing yourself at the same speed as healing another person is kinda silly.
Why would you ever willingly get someone else to heal you when you can do it in the same time while the second person now doesn't have to take time away from gens?
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because it took 8 seconds for you to heal without needing the team's help with med-kit and stacked with coh, denying the pressure of the killer at any time of the match, specially against mid-tier killers
But that was a problem with medkits and CoH allowing self healing (now solved), not an explanation of why altruistic healing is not a problem.
Taking 16s to heal altruistically (or more, if you take into account mangled, hemorrhagic etc) or around 10~12 altruistic with coh/med-kit, is ok for you to take the focus off from the gens (-2 or 3 survivor healing each other), then you differentiate self-heal from altruistic for both to be used correctly and tactically
That's the thing, they buffed CoH so now it would take 8 seconds to heal someone altruistic, a full SWF can reset all the damage technically in 16 seconds (two survivors healing: 2 c/s + 100% = 4 c/s = 4 seconds to heal one survivor).
And if we take in count real scenarios, altruistic healing happened when the injured survivor didn't have a medkit available to heal himself, so normally he would stay injured until finding another survivor whatever it is in a gen, crossing path with him, hook healing if the killer is distracted or a coordinated SWF resetting the damage on purpose so no travel time need to be counted.
So, how is altruistic healing not a problem when it would take from 8 to 16 seconds approx with just 1 survivor healing and 4 to 8 seconds with 2 to heal other survivor? More so taking in count that time can be recovered in a gen in much less time if those survivors group up to go to a gen (2: 16 charges in 9.41 seconds. 3: 8 charges in 3.80 seconds).
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Altruistic healing requires two survivors, which effectively means at least twice as much Survivor time is wasted.
That's a lie. And it is a lie because that would only be true if a medkit is in play. If the survivor didn't has a medkit, the time healing him would be wasted anyway, so it is not "time to heal x 2 invested". I don't know who come up with that, but he is so wrong.
It is also risky to group up for any reason
It was risky to group up, but now even without voice comms you can know when the killer is busy chasing another survivor thanks to the HUD icons. And the time spent in grouping up would go from 4 to 16 seconds depending on the situation (like I said, now with CoH 3 survivors can heal themself in 12 seconds total). So I won't call that risky, as it can be done safely if you chose the moment to do it.
I usually end up spending a LOT more time injured after my Medkit is out of charges. Finding a teammate and getting them to heal you can often be challenging in and of itself.
And you really spend your time actively searching for healing, or you just do your thing until you simply cross paths with other survivor, whatever by chance or because you hear a gen being worked on? Because unless you start running across all the map to find someone without doing anything else, you are not wasting any time in getting healed.
So, again, all this not explain why altruistic healing is not a problem to begin with.
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Because to be able to heal yourself you need a medkit. If there is no medkit available, you need someone to heal you.
But I want to know why altruistic healing is not a problem, and "is kinda silly" is not a valid argument, I'm afraid.
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I will tell you a secret. CoH will not be used in comms SWF like almost never. 8s is not enough time saved if you have to consider 2 people need to travel to it (so if the distance for at least 1 person is 4s longer then their middle point, then CoH makes no sense). This does not even begin to factor search totem time, blessing time and possible need to do that again.
The only people that will be using the perk are MAYBE some soloQ, that will just blindly bet on the fact, that other people will actually decide to go and help them when they see their aura...
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And you know that because you have a crystal ball that tell the future, right? Because obviously, being able to reset all the team in 12 second without the need of using items won't be useful for a coordinated full SWF premade or anything.
Anyway, again, that's a CoH "problem", but if you want to explain why altruistic healing wasn't a problem so it didn't need to be higher as self healing, I'm all ears.
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That's a lie. And it is a lie because that would only be true if a medkit is in play. If the survivor didn't has a medkit, the time healing him would be wasted anyway, so it is not "time to heal x 2 invested". I don't know who come up with that, but he is so wrong.
What are you even saying? You literally CAN'T self-heal without a medkit or CoH. Unless you're running Self-Care, which is garbage because it's less efficient than just healing normally.
It was risky to group up, but now even without voice comms you can know when the killer is busy chasing another survivor thanks to the HUD icons. And the time spent in grouping up would go from 4 to 16 seconds depending on the situation (like I said, now with CoH 3 survivors can heal themself in 12 seconds total). So I won't call that risky, as it can be done safely if you chose the moment to do it.
Unless the Killer suddenly decides to drop chase, or has Nurse's Calling, or the survivor they're chasing is forced to run towards the healing survivors.
And if they're doing a hit-and-run playstyle, the odds of the first two happening are quite high.
If you want "evidence" that altruistic healing isn't a problem, what better evidence could you ask for than the game's entire history? Altruistic healing has stayed at 16 seconds for a long, long time, and Killers have managed just fine through all of it. The main thing holding hit-and-run playstyles back has always been medkits, not basekit healing.
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What are you even saying? You literally CAN'T self-heal without a medkit or CoH.
Exactly! Why the hell are you comparing altruistic healing that needs nothing to be done with self healing with a medkit, then! If there is no medkit those 16 seconds invested in healing other survivor would be expended anyway, so you would not be wasting more time than necessary. That's why I said "that would only be true if a medkit is in play", because it is only true if a medkit is in play. If it is not, you won't be wasting any more time as it would be impossible for one of the survivors to do anything else that isn't heal or getting healed. That's why it is a false equivalency fallacy.
Unless the Killer suddenly decides to drop chase, or has Nurse's Calling, or the survivor they're chasing is forced to run towards the healing survivors.
And in any of those cases the killer would have 4 to 16 seconds to catch you or you would fully heal and get away. That, without taking in count that in the first case you would see in the HUD / someone would tell you in voice comms that the killer has break chase and has to still find and reach you. And in the last case, well, you can only blame your partner as the game or any of the mechanics has anything to do with it.
Grouping up can be done more safely now without using voice comms, and nothing of that changes this.
And if they're doing a hit-and-run playstyle, the odds of the first two happening are quite high.
Nurse Calling has a 5.93% pickrate. Almost nobody is running a hit-and-run build because letting a survivor go would means it gets healed even before you can find another one to hurt. That was precisely the main argument BHVR gave to nerf the healing in first place, to "make injures matter".
Altruistic healing has stayed at 16 seconds for a long, long time, and Killers have managed just fine through all of it.
Using that same logic, altruistic healing being as high as self healing is not a problem as it has being that way for a long, long time, and survivors have managed just fine though all of it.
So, that proves absolutely nothing.
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Exactly! Why the hell are you comparing altruistic healing that needs nothing to be done with self healing with a medkit, then! If there is no medkit those 16 seconds invested in healing other survivor would be expended anyway, so you would not be wasting more time than necessary. That's why I said "that would only be true if a medkit is in play", because it is only true if a medkit is in play. If it is not, you won't be wasting any more time as it would be impossible for one of the survivors to do anything else that isn't heal or getting healed. That's why it is a false equivalency fallacy.
Again, I really don't understand what your point even is here. Medkits make healing WAY more time-efficient, leaving the rest of your team free to crank out gens. They invalidate hit-and-run as a strategy, because Survivors can heal from your Sloppy Butcher hits faster than you can dish them out, and you can't catch more than one Survivor healing at a time.
And in any of those cases the killer would have 4 to 16 seconds to catch you or you would fully heal and get away. That, without taking in count that in the first case you would see in the HUD / someone would tell you in voice comms that the killer has break chase and has to still find and reach you. And in the last case, well, you can only blame your partner as the game or any of the mechanics has anything to do with it.
For any Killer with decent mobility, 16 seconds to find you isn't unrealistic, especially because the more time Survivors spend looking for a place to hide while healing, the less they spend healing or doing gens. Even Killers with no mobility like Ghostface have been known to play hit-and-run for this reason.
Nurse Calling has a 5.93% pickrate. Almost nobody is running a hit-and-run build because letting a survivor go would means it gets healed even before you can find another one to hurt. That was precisely the main argument BHVR gave to nerf the healing in first place, to "make injures matter".
Hit-and-run was a niche playstyle because Medkit self-healing hard countered it. Every injury you inflicted could be undone quickly and risk-free.
Using that same logic, altruistic healing being as high as self healing is not a problem as it has being that way for a long, long time, and survivors have managed just fine though all of it.
That's... not the same logic? Altruistic healing has always been at 16 seconds; setting it to 24 to match the new self-healing would be an unprecedented change. Saying it's okay to change it because it's always been the same as self-healing is more wordplay than actual argument.
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Tbh, pain resonance is more of a nerf than a buff. You get 4 chances max to use it on specific hooks and you could consume a token when survivors finish a gen while you hook someone so you essentially lose a token for nothing. It CAN be better if situations play out right but most of the time it won't line up that perfectly. You could theoretically have games where the hook doesn't remove any progress in an entire game game. I'm skeptical very many people will get the maximum value of 100% gen progress loss in a game (my guess is 60% at most combined from 4 hooks). It's just not good.
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So here's the thing.
If you are working on yourself, you are taking up YOUR time. Nobody else has to stop what they're doing to come over to you and heal you. That means they can spend that time on repairing generators.
By having someone heal you, that is now the time of TWO people being taken up. A total of 32 seconds worth of gen repair that is now not happening.
Healing by yourself is still going to be preferable to healing off another person, especially since none of this takes into account that you have to actually find someone to do the healing in the first place.
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like the others said, if you really do the maths around, it's worth wanting the altruistic healing to be more worthwhile than self-heal, since it will be -2 or -3 people in gens to move, group and heal to try to nullify the hit and run tatic (16s ~8s if 2 or 3 people), which will lead to generators being made in more time, up to 30s more.
As for the coh issue, maybe the values are a little inflated, I think something around 80% to take the well to heal altruistically to be a little smaller than altruistic healing time of med-kits (not counting the time to bless, and both move to the radius, which already balances even at 100%), but let's see the comparison videos on healing speeds when the update goes to the live server
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Yes. It's 12s, because survivors got teleport..... Again. If you take into account all the factors, you would realize it's much better to just do gens and if you happen to find someone, heal "slowly" so that you don't need to do all those lengthy preperations.
I said so about blood rush. Look and see how this will also be true for CoH.
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And... does that mean it's not too fast with all those healing perks?
That's no explanation of why altruistic healings aren't a problem, that's an explanation for why self healings were broken.
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Can't I be explaining for both of those reasons?
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Really, I don't know how is so hard to understand that having one item available and not having it is not the same...
Options if a medkit is in play:
- The injure survivor self heals with the medkit (Self Heal).
- Other survivor heals them without medkit (Altruistic Base Heal).
- Other survivor heals them with the medkit (Altruistic Heal).
In this scenario, the most efficient option would be that the injured survivor heals himself over the other two like we all know. Whatever it was him who brought the medkit, or the other person and just drop it to the ground so the injured survivor can use it. As this option exist, doing altruistic healing would means that you are wasting the time of a survivor that could be doing something else instead of just letting the injured survivor heal and not waste that time. So, in this specific case, yes, doing self healing is more efficient than altruistic.
And it is totally logical for it to be this way, as again, it requires something extra that maybe you can't have available for you at that time: A medkit. The main advantage of the medkit was always have the ability to self heal yourself without the help of anybody to begin with. So, again, is logical that having a medkit available for the injured survivor to self heal to be an advantage over basekit altruistic heal. And this is not a problem at all, because again, you can drop your medkit for everybody to be able to use it.
Options if a medkit is not in play:
- Other survivor heals them without a medkit (Altruistic Base Heal)
And that's it! You don't have any more options here, because there is no medkit. And because you don't have any more options (unless you count "No healing" as an option) you are not wasting any time doing the altruistic healing, because if you want to heal, you don't have any other way to do it. Meaning, those 16/24 seconds invested in it would have to be spent yes, or yes, and therefore they won't be "a waste" of anyone's time, much less gen progression.
So, now that we know the differences of "Having a Medkit" and "Not having a Medkit", again: Self healing is more efficient than altruistic healing only when you have a medkit at hand. If you don't, you won't be wasting any time (less so double the time of the healing) because you can't do anything else to get the heal.
Those two situations, "Having a Medkit" and "Not having a Medkit", are two completely different situations and comparing them directly to make any type of argument is a false equivalency fallacy. And if you don't see it by now, it's on you.
The funny thing is even if you all were right about this, this not even explains why altruistic healing wasn't a problem before. Even more so now than altruistic healing can be as low as 4 seconds. More so when most of the time healing would happen when it is not an inconvenient and the "travel time" don't even matter (for example, after completing a gen). So, you keep saying that it is "more convenient to the killer" when it is not.
And if "medkits needed change" and "altruistic healing should be lower because falsely comparing it with healing with a medkit is less efficient", they could just keep the 24 seconds, buff CoH like they are doing, and change the medkits from 50% to 100% to have the same effect as now with the best medkit you would get a healthy survivor and 21 charges in a gen in the same time a single survivor would heal themselves (24 seconds vs 12 seconds heal, 12 seconds both doing a gen) while still giving breathing time to the killer.
But yeah, whatever the masses says. We will have to see what happens when the patch comes out.
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Look, if you were struggling against basekit altruistic healing, I don't know what to tell you. Slap on Sloppy Butcher, Coulrophobia and Nurse's Calling if it bothers you that much.
The only times I've felt Survivors were healing too quickly for me to keep up is when all of them were using Medkit and Circle of Healing self-heals to their full potential, or when third health states like Dead Hard were in play (And all of those things are nerfed now, sooo...). Or when they were just better than me at looping, or were playing on Cowshed, neither of which are the fault of healing itself.
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"(unless you count "No healing" as an option)"
It absolutely IS an option.
You put yourself at risk but there are times where not healing is the smart play (getting the gate open, finishing a generator that's almost done, Legion existing).
Just because you don't want to acknowledge it doesn't mean it doesn't exist as an option.
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