Just to be clear on CoB/Overcharge
We're cancelling the nerf to these perks by ~70% right?
The healing changes felt "gross" so you're leaving killers with some sort of generator defense - right?
Nobody is going to even consider using these perks if you nerf their effectiveness by 70% or more.
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It's really overkill. No one's gonna use something that regresses that slowly. Might as well just rework the perks or delete them because they won't see use.
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Correct. Dead Hard gets a huge un-nerf, and Pain res just gets a small un-nerf where it's still completely awful.
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It would make zero sense if we had nothing for gen defense- although that seems to be path we are heading down.
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AHHAAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAA. Nope, they are still killing them. Welcome to the true gen rush hell.
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If that's so then a lot of people will immediately retire from the killer role.
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I believe they want to reduce the use of the two perks, because both have high pick-rates even though it is not an "issue" perk individually, but when they stack and around 3-gen which is more a game-design problem of how the generators are scattered across the map
For me, I would have just removed the track from the cob so that it no longer warns if the generator was touched with skillcheck, decreasing the synergy with overcharge and giving Surveillance a new air to be used again, since it has the sole purpose of giving track in a niche build.
Anyway, people are seeing how that thing of mid-chapter is bad by forcing artificially meta changes, messing with the most used perks, because being more used doesn't always mean being broken or op even more so when one side is more affected than the other, which happened in the last mid-chaper of July, with perks like self-care being nerfed (just used a lot for soloQ), calm spirit, spine chill, IW, etc, instead of just changing only the problematics and buffing other non-meta perks to increase the viability of usable perks to compete with the most consistent ones
Post edited by randonly on1 -
Why on earth would they undo the changes to CoB/Overcharge? Those are the perks that actually cause a problem worth fixing, if they undid any killer perk changes it'd be for Pain Res- and they did buff that, at least.
As for "leaving killers gen defence", of course they are. They only touched three perks, that's not all the slowdown in the game.
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So! You've got Jolt, Deadlock, and Eruption. All solid perks, to varying degrees; Eruption can be a little killer-situational and Jolt can be a lot map-dependant, but they're pretty solid and reliable picks that you can depend on to give you value within a match. There's also Corrupt, as you acknowledged, that gives you some pretty good early-game pressure from denying the gens survivors spawn on.
Since self-healing got moderately-to-severely gutted, Sloppy Butcher is going to be pretty solid on the killers who can apply it- and most of the ones that can't have addons for it anyway.
Dead Man's Switch is surprisingly good even on its own, at least if you're playing a mobile or ranged killer. Might not be as good for the likes of Clown and Trapper, but I run it on Wraith and see pretty noticeable value.
Gift of Pain is decent, if not amazing. Pairs well with other forms of slowdown, so maybe don't run it on its own but do keep it in mind.
Plaything/Pentimento remains a very good pick if you're willing to invest in it, probably the best active slowdown there is. That's for generators being done slower, mind, not regressing or being blocked or any other form of slowdown.
Basically, if you put even the slightest amount of thought towards considering your options, understand that what killer you play should affect what perks you bring into a trial, and accept that perks should only give you windows to generate proper slowdown via hooks with your own skill, there's plenty of good perks left. This is only slowdown, too, you're going to want chase and information perks as well.
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no you had your fun stalling matches for 50 minutes. You made your bed now sleep in it.
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-"You've got Jolt, Deadlock, and Eruption. All solid perks"
Deadlock has never been in the shrine so some people don't have it. It's functional but that's about it.
Joly only works with another strong gen regression perk.
Eruption is completely dead and it's just wrong to imply otherwise.
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Sure, but some people aren't gonna have any one specific perk, even if it's been in the shrine. If the question is what players who only have access to some perks will use, I can't really answer that without knowing what DLCs they have, y'know?
Jolt does work on its own, but yes, it's better with other regression perks.
Why do people keep saying Eruption is dead? 10% regression on every gen you kick with no range requirement is perfectly serviceable, you just have to be playing a killer that can cycle between those gens. Wraith is my best for it, personally, but anyone with mobility or a teleport can do it.
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You do realize that very few people continue to regularly log in to play killer right?
If there is no viable gen regression then what happens if a big chunk of killers like me who have been here since the beginning just stop playing.
It would be one thing if they said : oh by the way all gen rush perks are getting the same nerf as CoB/OC with a 70% reduction in effect AND toolboxes are now sabotage only AND we made all the healing slow.
What is going to stop the gen rush? There's literally nothing viable left and the devs have done nothing to stop the ~40 second generator repair rush with Hyperfocus.
We know there is a massive imbalance of survivor to killer ratio thanks to the BP bonuses. We know it was the same before the 6.1 meta shake up that was supposed to make more people want to play killer. We actually have leaked data from people pinging the DBD servers where in some cases we had 45 killers or fewer in queue with 4500 survivors.
Killer has always been kept one step away from being miserable. But they can't just destroy every viable gen regression perk if they want people to keep playing killer.
-"Why do people keep saying Eruption is dead?"
Because it went to 10% reduction and the survivors could immediately start working on the generator again. Previously it lost 10% immediately and then it would lose another 20% while that player could not work on it.
When you look at player usage for Eruption it's down in the 6% range but it was supposed to become meta - oops they missed the mark.
-"you just have to be playing a killer that can cycle between those gens"
If DBD is moving to the point where only Blight and Nurse are viable then I'm out.
I was barely hanging on playing older killers. I was still having fun vs most of the 5000-10000 hour survivors I played against as "weaker" killers with the limited regression we had left.
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Sure, if the bar for usable is overpowered, then Eruption is dead. However, I would argue the bar for usable should actually sit at "usable", and so Eruption is clearly still good.
I literally cited Wraith. Not Nurse and Blight. That's also just for Eruption, not for every slowdown perk.
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lol
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Interesting. Considering healing changes and how much easier the killer will have it after the patch, at minimum me personally is changing sides. I will still play some survivor, but probably more killer, because butchering of CoH, huge reduce to medkits and even DH limitation (this last one bothers me only indirectly, I wasn't using it for a long time, but ppl that did used to save me with it sometimes)...
Also. Where does that stupid notion of not enough killers come from? If you pick random time during a day, chances are incentives will be on survivor. And the chances are very good. 60% killrate after all. Queue times also match this. Maybe check incentives also any other time during day and not just at 7pm...
Post edited by Gandor on2 -
I really wish my fellow killer mains would stop pretending like the gen kick meta is healthy for the game. There is nothing more boring than trying to break a 3 gen for 20 minutes because the killer has COB/Overcharge. It also isn’t even skillful.
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When did Dead Hard get un-nerfed, it dropped from once every 40 seconds (or less with Vigil), down to 0-6 uses from safe unhooks and then down to 0-2 uses depending on if the survivor gets off the hook and either mends or escapes without a Deep Wound?
Did I miss an addendum to the recent Developer Update or are you just trying to make the rest of us killer mains look bad by continuing to whine about Dead Hard until it’s removed from the game, regardless of how much it’s butchered?
Meanwhile Call of Brine is fine, it’s still a perfectly viable information perk, especially great for Nemmy mains like me with all those LNNs to make zombies camp gens and it’s still better than something like Surveillance for most builds.
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Not really tbh
In fact they can genrush all they want when you have rancor :P
Bonus points if game afoot as well
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Neither is gen rushing so not sure what your point is? I get bored kicking gens though anyway so might be roll of the dice hex builds for me.
Great when all you can rely on is a roll of a dice.
Great against a swf that lol
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Gen rushing does require skill, a lot of survivors struggle with difficult skill checks, which is part of what made Overcharge good and it’s why not all of them can use Brand New Parts or Hyperfocus. Then easier stuff like Prove Thyself or Friendly Competition causes Discordance to trigger or requires them to waste time cleansing/booning like Overzealous, which gained the booning option just as the best boon’s getting giga-nerfed :D
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Timing one button hardly requires what I would call skill. That's just me though.
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when skillchecks get faster from hyperfocus with 4+ tokens, yes, I would say it requires skill, even more so with things like doctor's madness and perks like Unnerving Presence
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True but on average they are not.
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There are things both survivors and killers can bring to the trial to make skill checks harder, but comparatively speaking, nothing makes kicking gens require skill.
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That entirely depends on how long it takes you to walk up and kick the gen. Multiple killers and multiple addons/perks can lessen that time, thus making the spike of regression on multiple generators later much more effective.
Any time a perk requires even the slightest amount of thought and consideration for its use, it's declared useless and nuked, I swear.
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Currently, people average about 3 DH per match, which is 1 per health state. It is so very rare I ever see a survivor use DH more than 3 times per match. If someone uses DH, you keep chasing them so they don't get their DH back.
The original PTB DH, where people could easily get 0 activations, is a massive nerf, and should be the version that goes live. I would be fine with that version. This new DH is a huge un-nerf compared to the original PTB DH, and shouldn't go live, because this game deserves a massive nerf at the same intensity as the original PTB DH.
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Just wait and see. The fact that you were not in MMR range where people use DH to help other people that are not in chase does not mean that everybody shares your experience. I am pretty sure there will be VERY considerable dip in usage rate. The perk lost huge amount of utility. It means other perks are now without question much more appealing choice.
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I want the considerable dip the original PTB DH would have given. I wouldn’t need to “wait and see” if the original PTB DH went live.
We had a great solution for DH, and it was the original PTB version. That version lost a huge amount of utility too, and was much less appealing than the new DH.
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So there's a few issues here.
First is that this idea that "killer time is 4x more valuable than survivor time" is often used as an inherent truth, something that will always apply in every situation, and that just isn't true. Any survivor that is taken out of the action - slugged, hooked, dead - modifies that number, and in the case of dead survivors specifically, modifies it permanently. That throws your simple math out of whack already, because you can't actually break it down to abstract numbers like that- it's always going to be fluid and changing how much you can afford to spend on any specific action at any specific moment.
Second is that the natural pressure gained from the down that procs Eruption is being disregarded. Even setting aside that your specific numbers are entirely wrong because they cannot be that specific, the fact of the matter is that the generators you kicked are damaged and regressing, and two survivors cannot be working on them to make up for that: one is on the hook, and one is going for the save. This doesn't matter too much for the regressing part, since base regression numbers are pretty bad, but it does mean it takes a little longer before that 10% is made back up again on all affected generators, which means it's longer before they exceed past that 10%.
Slowdown isn't really supposed to 'break even', unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by that. It's just meant to make generators take longer in terms of real, literal numbers, to give you more time to generate natural pressure through downs and hooks. If you're playing a killer that can tag multiple generators with Eruption (since it shines best when you damage more generators than survivors can instantly start fixing again), that gives you time to get downs and hooks to slow the game down further. That's why old Eruption was so busted- it was one of the few perks that rivalled the kind of slowdown you get from hooks, since survivors who actually got hit with Incapacitated were completely ground to a halt. That's not what slowdown perks are meant to do, or at least shouldn't be what they're meant to do.
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Ok hold on, old Eruption was stupid, it was basically Killer Deadhard (which is also stupid)
The counterplay is "predict when the perk is in play and about to happen to avoid it by stopping doing your objectives". It's a perk that had counterplay that felt bad, like Spine Chill and Pain Res/DMS combo. I do not want that back.
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I’d argue that the latest version is getting into D-Strike territory, where survivors start sabotaging themselves just to get value, that’s why I don’t think it’s an un-nerf.
It also risks the occasional uselessness of Deliverance if you don’t get hooked until you’re the last survivor and now a survivor’s guaranteed not to have it on your first chase, unlike the PTB’s initial revision of DH.
And for now it looks like it’ll remain an Exhaustion perk, which makes it even less appealing with a max of 2 charges from being hooked. I can easily see MoM being more enticing if DH goes live as is, at least then you only have to body block 3 hooks and you can pair MoM with Exhaustion perks.
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Self-healing still is nerfed, flashlight interactions still are being removed and DH is even more nerfed. CoB/Overcharge nerfs remaining is a very questionable decision indeed but let's not start with the victim mentality please.
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Sabotaging themselves? You honestly think people are purposely going to run to the killer to get hooked, so they can get a DH activation? Really?
And the occasional uselessness, involving a survivor that is the last survivor, but has never been hooked, is extremely rare, compared to the number of survivors that would have gotten 0 activations from the original PTB DH, just because they never unhooked anyone.
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If they’re desperate enough, then yes, I say this because I saw it happen all the time with D-Strike. I’ve always made it a habit not to tunnel and yet you always knew the ones who had it because they went out of their way go get hit by you again.
Some people just want to validate their choice to equip x perk, even if it means they’re effectively wasting it.
If people aren’t going for unhooks, then that’s their choice, but as my profile icon might suggest, I’d have no trouble earning DH through unhooks.
So by what basis do you judge that people not getting hooked pre-endgame is extremely rare?
How many times have you encountered stealthy line wolves who become the final survivor without getting a single hook state, how many times would they get to use this revision of Dead Hard?
What about those of us killers who snowball things late game, especially with the likes of NOED? So many times I’ve caught cocky survivors and gotten all three hook states in one.
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D-Strike has a time limit, so it's much more likely for people to feel a need to force a D-Strike.
The main difference is that original PTB DH is a situational perk, where people need to actively earn activations, because they might get 0 activations. And yes, it could still be good for dedicated users, and they could still want to equip the original PTB DH..... but most people aren't dedicated into getting unhooks, and would likely to drop the perk.
And that's the main thing. Original PTB DH was a situational perk, and new DH is an "everyone gets free activations" perk.
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As I said in my own thread on the topic, they’re not free if you’re giving up a hook state for them, they’re a consolation prize.
Again, this revision ensures a survivor won’t have Dead Hard until you’ve hooked them and then only once each post-hooking chase, they can’t run off and recover from Exhaustion or unhook others to earn more charges, it’s 2 uses maximum and it’ll have no meaningful interaction with Blood Rush, unlike other Exhaustion Perks (except Overcome).
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Tell me how difficult Skill need? With this in mind, BhVR may be aiming for an easy game where 2 out of 4 survivors of skill level can escape.
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cob and oc are unhealthy regression perks. they abuse map design and imbalance survivor objective. a big part my survivors deaths in post 6.1 were all 3 gen killers. 30-40 minute games were not enjoyable for the survivor experience. Holding the game hostage was borderline game-breaking.
there must be a world where they can 80% of the weaker killer in the game without requiring them to take 20+ minutes to 1 game. their current ptb did exact opposite. it buffed top 20% killer turbo hard and did very little for weaker killers. I might consider making a post at some point that does global changes to buff weaker killers. I have been mostly hesitate to say anything because any time you suggest anything to improve killer, survivor player-base will go complete crazy.
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it’s a free consolation prize that requires zero effort from the survivors, and ensures that most survivors will get 2 activations.
And I don’t care if original PTB DH could potentially have more than 2 activations. It’s still a situational perk that is much less desirable for most players, and most players wouldn’t be getting more than 2 activations from it….. and many survivors would be getting 0 activations from it.
Also, if new DH really were a nerf compared to original PTB DH, then these forums would be flooded with complaints that dead hard was nerfed twice in the same PTB.
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-"Where does that stupid notion of not enough killers come from?"
Every day for DBD follows the same pattern.
- In the morning all the SWF groups go to bed so more people play killer. This is when survivor mains play killer. This is when you have a guaranteed survivor BP bonus.
- In mid afternoon survivor mains hop on and the bonus flips over - but sometimes it goes back and forth because once again : it's not "SWF central" time yet.
- Once evening rolls around it's 100% killer basically all night until morning.
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-"Gen rushing does require skill, a lot of survivors struggle with difficult skill checks, which is part of what made Overcharge good"
I really hope your post is satire with the ":D" at the end. Most survivors do not struggle with skill checks. It's literally an "afk" test. Nobody struggles with Overcharge checks unless they are drunk or they tap the generator and are not ready for the check mid chase.
Overcharge works because if left alone for ~40-60 seconds it nukes the generator. What do you need to do to get overcharge to work? Tunnel one player out and hook/slug another player.
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IDK but from what I can tell it flips quite a lot during nights. And is constantly on survivor at least until 3pm (after which it will probably still be on survivors, but it might be not sometimes).
Overall if I fully randomly open DBD, it's much more likely to see it on survivor. That's why I just don't understand the people that say "there's not enough killers".
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Old eruption was stupid but could have been made fair to both solo queue and SWF.
When someone goes down any kicked generators lose 10% porgress and start regressing for 35% as if the killer had kicked them (triggering the regression rate of CoB/OC but not any side effects like the required skill check or aura vision). Keep those generators untouchable by survivors for 35 seconds.
The survivors can heal or go do other generators but they can't touch THOSE generators.
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-"cob and oc are unhealthy regression perks. they abuse map design and imbalance survivor objective. "
Let's talk about something briefly. Everyone knows what a "3 gen" is but my friend calls the reverse situation a "Y" gen. All the old slow M1 killers with no movement power lose the game if the survivors have a "Y" gen. Kicks perks let the old killers hold a 3 gen while committing to "short" chases.
When a killer loses their 3 gen it's roughly equal to the survivors losing one player from their team.
If every map the "old" killers can play were smaller than 9000m² AND did not have crazy linked tiles like coal tower does then DBD would be fine without gen kick perks.
But look at how many maps are NOT that small. It is impossible for the old M1 killers to defend "huge tracts of land". Only teleporters and Nurse/Blight basically can even attempt.
Kick perks let the "old cast" hold three gens.
-"a big part my survivors deaths in post 6.1 were all 3 gen killers. 30-40 minute games were not enjoyable for the survivor experience. Holding the game hostage was borderline game-breaking."
If I can't hold a 3 gen on something like 70% of the maps then I'm not going to play killer anymore. Most of the maps in DBD are designed as 3 gen or Get The "F" Out. Dead Dog, Suffocation Pit, The Game, and many, MANY of the maps play out like this. The killer must have some kind of tool to either hold 3 gens close together or the ability to travel between 3 generators in about 20 seconds. Otherwise there's just no point.
"there must be a world where they can 80% of the weaker killer in the game without requiring them to take 20+ minutes to 1 game. their current ptb did exact opposite."
Have the developers do a PTB where old M1 killers can't play maps larger than 9000m². Also remove coal tower from the list of maps because it has stupidly interlinked tiles (that m1 killers cant deal with quickly).
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-"I really wish my fellow killer mains would stop pretending like the gen kick meta is healthy for the game. There is nothing more boring than trying to break a 3 gen for 20 minutes because the killer has COB/Overcharge. It also isn’t even skillful."
Most of the killers have stupidly slow movement that is inappropriate for maps larger than 9000m². If the survivors hold gens in the most far apart positions then the killer automatically loses. Nurse and Blight can travel larger maps and get from Generator A to B to C in about 30 seconds because their kits feature : stupidly fast movement. Most of the other killers can't defend those generators.
Kick perks made holding a 3 gen possible. I'm sorry if you feel otherwise but there is nothing skillful about having a 4:1 advantage over a killer who is weak in chase and blasting 5 generators before the killer gets 5 hooks. As map size increases the ability to finish generators easily goes up.
I will remind you that buffing CoB/OC was the dev's idea when they nerfed Pop to oblivion. They were supposed to take over the meta to slow down generators - and it actually works IF you can keep survivors off the generators.
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The new pain res is not awful by any means 100% regression across all 4 uses of the perk would only be exceeded by 7 pain res hooks before the change. Strength wise, I think It's probably about the same because that strength is more front loaded to the early game.
Unless you are hyper tunneling, your first 2 hooks will be pain res hooks and that's 50% regression and early game is when you are weakest as killer and slowdown is relatively more valuable. That's 5% more regression than you're getting at 3 hooks with the old pain res.
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Also before someone comments it because I already see it pain res's 25% regression is not "just a weaker version of old pop"
Old pop was 25% of 80
pain res will be 25% of 90 without you needing to spend time kicking the gen
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Current pain res works perfect well with tunneling, and that is a huge advantage. Purposely trying to spread hooks is often a poor game decision.
And because it's tied to scourge hooks, it's not even necessarily an anti-tunneling perk. If I'm not in range of a scourge hook, and I hook a survivor on a regular hook, then it's totally fine if I tunnel that survivor, because I still haven't hooked them on a scourge hook yet. In order for this to actually be an anti-tunneling perk, the scourge hook requirement need to get dropped.
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Let's talk about how much regression you could have right now in a "real game". What happens if I get 8 hooks at 15%?
That's 120% regression. This is a nerf. You can't call it anything but a nerf if you want to be taken seriously. The RNG factor was not removed; all hooks are not scourge hooks so players can break the hook, block the hook or they can simply be too far to be used.
-"Unless you are hyper tunneling, your first 2 hooks will be pain res hooks and that's 50% regression"
You obviously don't use PR very much in real games. I had a 12 hook game recently with MM and guess how many times I got to use PR? It was about 4 uses because people had toolboxes and the RNG was heavily weight to one side over the other. Normally they would have tried blocking the hook - but that is not a thing vs infinite T3 MM.
-"Current pain res works perfect well with tunneling, and that is a huge advantage. Purposely trying to spread hooks is often a poor game decision."
And that's what the survivors want - they want less regression overall and less pressure. Having one player on death hook creates pressure.
The decision to nerf PR is one to make survivors "feel good" but in so doing nobody is going to keep using the perk.
If they wanted PR to be viable then PR would make every hook White. They didn't do that so it maintains a RNG element so you will never have the guarantee of getting 25% for someone's first hook.
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Let's talk about old Pop.
On average I got somewhere between 6-9 pops per game. Thats 120-180 seconds of extra objective time for survivors.
You know how that worked out in game? Quite often I would hook someone and rush to an important generator that someone was working. I usually wouldn't even get to hit them - I just kicked the gen and left. Then I hooked the next person near that generator if possible and kicked that generator.
This would create pressure. It would make sure that the gen didn't get worked on. And then I would down the hooked player again or someone else - and pop the same generator again unless something else needed kicking.
I played a game a few days ago with Overcharge and PR. By itself OC does nothing unless nobody can come interrupt it. But if left alone it will absolutely smash a generator in about 40 seconds. And when combined with the current PR it will send gens to nothing in that time.
Both of those perks are about to do nothing.
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