Just to be clear on CoB/Overcharge
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The new pain res is not awful by any means 100% regression across all 4 uses of the perk would only be exceeded by 7 pain res hooks before the change. Strength wise, I think It's probably about the same because that strength is more front loaded to the early game.
Unless you are hyper tunneling, your first 2 hooks will be pain res hooks and that's 50% regression and early game is when you are weakest as killer and slowdown is relatively more valuable. That's 5% more regression than you're getting at 3 hooks with the old pain res.
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Also before someone comments it because I already see it pain res's 25% regression is not "just a weaker version of old pop"
Old pop was 25% of 80
pain res will be 25% of 90 without you needing to spend time kicking the gen
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Current pain res works perfect well with tunneling, and that is a huge advantage. Purposely trying to spread hooks is often a poor game decision.
And because it's tied to scourge hooks, it's not even necessarily an anti-tunneling perk. If I'm not in range of a scourge hook, and I hook a survivor on a regular hook, then it's totally fine if I tunnel that survivor, because I still haven't hooked them on a scourge hook yet. In order for this to actually be an anti-tunneling perk, the scourge hook requirement need to get dropped.
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Let's talk about how much regression you could have right now in a "real game". What happens if I get 8 hooks at 15%?
That's 120% regression. This is a nerf. You can't call it anything but a nerf if you want to be taken seriously. The RNG factor was not removed; all hooks are not scourge hooks so players can break the hook, block the hook or they can simply be too far to be used.
-"Unless you are hyper tunneling, your first 2 hooks will be pain res hooks and that's 50% regression"
You obviously don't use PR very much in real games. I had a 12 hook game recently with MM and guess how many times I got to use PR? It was about 4 uses because people had toolboxes and the RNG was heavily weight to one side over the other. Normally they would have tried blocking the hook - but that is not a thing vs infinite T3 MM.
-"Current pain res works perfect well with tunneling, and that is a huge advantage. Purposely trying to spread hooks is often a poor game decision."
And that's what the survivors want - they want less regression overall and less pressure. Having one player on death hook creates pressure.
The decision to nerf PR is one to make survivors "feel good" but in so doing nobody is going to keep using the perk.
If they wanted PR to be viable then PR would make every hook White. They didn't do that so it maintains a RNG element so you will never have the guarantee of getting 25% for someone's first hook.
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Let's talk about old Pop.
On average I got somewhere between 6-9 pops per game. Thats 120-180 seconds of extra objective time for survivors.
You know how that worked out in game? Quite often I would hook someone and rush to an important generator that someone was working. I usually wouldn't even get to hit them - I just kicked the gen and left. Then I hooked the next person near that generator if possible and kicked that generator.
This would create pressure. It would make sure that the gen didn't get worked on. And then I would down the hooked player again or someone else - and pop the same generator again unless something else needed kicking.
I played a game a few days ago with Overcharge and PR. By itself OC does nothing unless nobody can come interrupt it. But if left alone it will absolutely smash a generator in about 40 seconds. And when combined with the current PR it will send gens to nothing in that time.
Both of those perks are about to do nothing.
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Healing/injuries are a basekit mechanic, killer perk's equivalent is survivor's perks. CoH and DH are butchered (rightfully so), as CoB and OC are heavily nerfed. I wouldn't even say the killer perks are butchered, because the unique facets of them still stand (Intel for CoB, Skillcheck for OC, albeit at 14% instead of 15%), unlike CoH which lost self-healing, and DH which has a hard cap of 2 uses per match (unless I misunderstood the proposed change).
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The problem with DH is the original PTB version was a massive nerf that turned DH into a situational perk where survivors might easily get 0 activations the entire match…… and then BHVR gave DH a huge un-nerf, where survivors get 2 activations for free, and now the perk is very usable again.
DH deserves a nerf with the same intensity as the original PTB version. Giving the perk a huge un-nerf shouldn’t have happened, and if BHVR really did need to change the effect a bit, then should give the perk an additional nerf so it’s as bad as the original PTB version.
Because right now it feels like we got a bait and switch, where the original PTB version gave people hope that the perk was finally massively nerfed, and then it got switched out for a huge un-nerf.
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Almost every gen regression perk is on the chopping block.
SB , Lithe and Overcome didnt get a 75% reduction in effectiveness like CoB did. That's madness.
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2 things can be unhealthy at the same time. My point is that boring gameplay is trash. 3 gen cob/overcharge? Trash. Swfs on comms using bnps? Trash. Face camping and tunneling at 5 gens? Trash. I play both sides so I refuse to encourage lame gameplay just because it might benefit me.
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CoB is still a viable information perk, better than something like Surveillance for most builds and it still has some regression value, meanwhile Overcome isn’t a great perk to begin with, being the only Exhaustion perk restricted to when survivors are healthy IIRC.
And I’m sure when this latest nerf to Dead Hard goes live and things like Sprint Burst and Lithe raise in popularity that they’ll see a nerf also, just be patient.
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CoB is not a viable information perk. If you just wanted information there's already a park that does the same thing better.
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And what would that be?
Also does it proc tons of LLNs to make my zombies camp gens?
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I play both sides too so want whats best for the game. I prefer killer though because in soloQ I get put with potatoes sometimes.
I'm only concerned if the scales of imbalance tilt much more where this game is headed.
I came back to find not only is corrupt not basekit they nerfed it and gave survivors basekit BT.
Pain res nerfed and getting nerfed again!
I found DH more or less as annoying as before too as killer FOV is so terrible. Although I got to grips with it majority of the time now. Disregarding what I think is auto DH and garbage at vaults and pallets.
No problem for me I will take a break again until they get an idea if it tilts too much more in wrong direction.
Killer must sweat if they want to stand even a chance of winning but survivors don't.
Post edited by VirtuaTyKing on0 -
Which perk do you mean? I can think of two that give similar info to CoB, Surveillance and Gearhead, and I wouldn't say either of them are strictly better than the other two.
It seems a lot more like personal preference, there.
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If you're looking at what the perks do and only looking at the information they give for generators then there is one very clear winner (it's not gearhead by the way - that's a very stupid rework of that skill). The only time you might want to use nerfed CoB over Surveillance is when playing Nemesis for the"EXPLOSION NOISES" (thanks Mr. Torgue).
But it's a moot point because nobody cares about Surveillance without considering gen regression. This patch is going to make is so that you play killer and ignore the generators completely.
Kicking becomes worthless. Every gen regression perk becomes worthless.
Killer will immediately move to "chase" saving perks and" End game" perks. And then the devs will be like hey why is nobody using these perks we nerfed by 75%?
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I disagree, I think there are benefits to running Call of Brine over Surveillance. It gives you more up-to-date information than Surveillance does, at the cost of being on a timer, which I think is a fair trade that puts the two in basically the same position.
I know I for one am going to be using Call of Brine on stealth killers who can approach the generator without being seen. Personally, the loud noise notifications are an upside to me as well, since it means I'm less likely to miss the information the way I might if I'm not actively looking at the generator in question for Surveillance.
Gearhead is similar, which honestly looks like it's going to be pretty nice with this change, I don't think that's stupid at all. Get a hit, get up to date information on which generators are being worked on for thirty seconds, that's pretty nice.
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-"It gives you more up-to-date information than Surveillance does, at the cost of being on a timer, which I think is a fair trade that puts the two in basically the same position."
What if the survivor doesn't get a skillcheck for 20-30 seconds?
What if the survivor only makes great skillchecks?
I can remember back in the days of old ruin where somtimes I would only get 1-2 skillchecks while finishing a generator.
-"Gearhead is similar, which honestly looks like it's going to be pretty nice with this change, I don't think that's stupid at all."
Gearhead is a perk that will work "fine" in Mid range MMR where nobody will care that it is used anyway. For anyone who wants to play killer efficiently it will not be "worth a slot."
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Sure, that's a possibility. But if they do hit a good skillcheck, that's more impactful and up to date information than seeing the generator's aura change with Surveillance, and since skillchecks aren't that uncommon and even really strong survivors still hit goods about as frequently as greats, that makes the perk pretty solid.
This isn't a new effect we have to theorycraft about, CoB has done this since release and it's been pretty useful information the whole time. People just didn't notice or care because the regression was why they were running it, so they wanted people not to touch the generator to begin with.
As for Gearhead, I have no idea what you're basing that on or why it'd be relevant. Efficient killer play does in fact involve being aware of where survivors are and using information to track them down, and efficient killer play for a lot of killers on the roster absolutely involves getting basic attacks, so there's no reason you couldn't run Gearhead at higher than "mid range MMR", however you'd calculate or define that.
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-"Efficient killer play does in fact involve being aware of where survivors are and using information to track them down"
So this is going to be better than BBQ+Lethal on Blight? There's no combination you would use Gearhead instead. Also that being plenty of info you would not likely need another info perk.
Some perks are a 8-10 out out potential usefulness and other perks are a 4-6 by comparison. Gearhead's potential is more in the 4-6 range when you think about what it can do overall.
Also just as a generalization- Killers have been finding survivors on or around generators since 2016 with great ease. It's one of the game sense skills that takes a long time to develop. It's one of the things that separates me from a friend of mine who only dabbles in playing killer. He might know how to run loops but he doesn't know how to find people without aura highlights. He misses the nuance of birds and other signs that someone was or is here.
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On Blight? No, I'm pretty sure Blight's Rushes count as Special Attacks, right?
Something doesn't have to compete with the absolute best of the best options to be considered good, worthwhile, or viable, anyway. Most people aren't playing comp-level Blight with the best possible loadout, they're just playing the killers they enjoy at a more standard pace of play, and for that Gearhead is going to be a nice option. Will they pick it? No, probably not, people get comfortable with what they know and even players who aren't trying their absolute hardest tend to gravitate towards whatever's obviously strongest and requires the least thought/effort to use, but that doesn't mean it isn't good.
To your last point - obviously you don't need most information tools, that doesn't mean they aren't useful, or otherwise nice to have.
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-"Something doesn't have to compete with the absolute best of the best options to be considered good, worthwhile, or viable, anyway."
This idea is just not true if we're being honest when you are considering efficient play. You're welcome to prove me wrong and become the world's best Doctor Mains that competes with "mediocre" Blight players.
-"To your last point - obviously you don't need most information tools, that doesn't mean they aren't useful, or otherwise nice to have."
This I will agree with. I've been saying for a long time killer deserves more perk slots because that's the advantage SWF has. The hud update gave survivors a ton of information that made many older perks pointless.
What's the point of Buckle Up when you can clearly see how much recovery a survivor has left before they hit 99%?
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I assure you I'm not being disingenuous or intentionally oblivious here, but I genuinely have no idea what you mean by "efficient" play. The only definitions I can think of have very little to do with perks at all, so you're gonna have to define that one for me, unfortunately.
As for your example, I don't need to be the world's best Doctor main that competes with Blight mains, I just have to be good enough at my killers to maintain an average winrate. That's literally the only bar that exists for whether something is viable without any other contexts in mind.
Side note, Buckle Up doesn't do that anymore, Buckle Up gives Haste + Endurance on pickup.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear with Buckle Up. I know it got changed but what I should have emphasized is that the perk got reworked because the main selling point of that perk is now base kit survivor information. That's kinda messed up when you think about it in terms of "information warfare".
I think we both know what efficient play means without defining the term explicitly. We might not even agree what that means exactly but when you have people that go for try hard wins every round you can look at their loadouts. You know what is try hard and what is not.
As an example : Dead Hard, Adrenaline, Hope, Resilience + green medkit = tryhard.
The joke is that there is no world's best doctor. Nobody cares because it is a "washed out" statistic overwritten by a mediocre Blight. In a way it would be like asking : what individual makes the most money shining other individuals shoes?
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Information warfare...?
And no, I didn't know what efficient play meant. But, if you mean tryhards, then sure- 90% of perks in the roster aren't going to be deemed viable for being a tryhard, but that's obviously not the line for viable in general. Tryhards aren't every single player and nor should they be, that isn't required for winning or playing well or enjoying the game, it's just the way some people prefer to play. More power to them, but the game shouldn't be balanced around them exclusively, and balance changes therefore shouldn't be viewed through that lens either.
There probably is a world's best Doctor? At the very least there are dedicated Doctor mains, and their experience of the game isn't 'washed out' or secondary to the experience of a Blight main. If a perk is changed to help them, and the mains of players who don't play the top tier or play like a tryhard every match, that's a good perk change. It doesn't have to appeal only to tryhard players to be considered good, viable, or worthwhile.
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You mean like how the survivors absolutely melted down over COH and DH being rightfully gutted?
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correct
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Is it too late to ask : why are we nerfing all the gen regression perks but not nerfing all the gen rushing perks AND the gen rushing item (toolbox)?
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DH now fits in the role of 'blue shell', to reward you for losing. This is the same design as NOED, Deadlock, Desperate Measures, and Blood Rush. It already was super unreliable (and often weaker) compared to SB, which SB also had greater skill expression anyways. (You can record matches on the current patch and check how many times people didn't use/failed to use DH right now. Heck even try to use it yourself as Survivor, I've been exhausted on the ground/"I pressed E" so often I don't even bother with such unreliability.) Personally I think the best version of DH is endurance against Special Attacks only. That way it is an equalizer perk that helps against some of the most busted killers, without hurting Legion/Clown/Myers/etc.. To be fair there will still be exceptions to the rule in terms of strength (Spirit is only M1, Artist zoned M1 instead of bird), but in general it would probably be the most fair version that way.
To an extent that is a fair argument, exhaustion perks being second chance perks the same as regression/slowdown perks being second chance perks. The problem being you would have to nerf the unique facet of those perks, and not the tertiary benefits. I would say a fair assessment there would be the inability to recover exhaustion while working on a gen. That way if the killer procs their endurance, they can't immediately hop back on gens with little to no punishment. They have to willingly not touch gens to get their endurance back, which could also help encourage chests/totems/altruism.
Moving to chase perks - How is that a bad thing? Even on live I frequently only run 1 slowdown (2 tops), intel and lethality are undervalued and underutilized. When people start to use them they will appreciate how truly valuable they are. It also ensures both sides spend more time advancing their win condition, instead of delaying their opponent's.
Also Buckle Up was never good, and they (BHVR) have no idea how to even make it usable. I would prefer garbo perks like this be buffed to the point more people are willing to drop their Adrenaline or other perk in the hopes of getting value out of the buffed garbo perks.
Also very fair point, I think we should shift toolboxes more towards sabo gameplay, since that has risks and rewards for both sides with direct interaction. I wouldn't remove the repair bonuses altogether, but certainly tone them down a bit. To be fair though, we did get the most powerful survivor item (medkits) gutted, so I wouldn't be looking gift horses in the mouth. I wouldn't doubt a similar timeframe down the line as 6.1.0 -> 6.7.0 that we get a toolbox nerf as well. I mean heck, we even got a bizarre flashlight nerf/buff combo in between, so it isn't like they are unwilling to make changes to items. I just hope they make keys viable again outside of Blood Amber abuse.
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