Some changes I think Trickster needs
I have had Trickster in my main killer rotation since he was released and I think he's a pretty underrated killer. I think he's better than a lot of people give him credit for, but he has a lot of glaring issues with his kit on both sides of gameplay.
There are two main things I notice that really irk me every time I play Trickster.
- I don't think he should be a 110% killer, I think he should be 115%
Him being a 110% killer makes it way harder than it should be on some maps where survivors can constantly break LOS, so you basically have no power and you are 110%. He has to hit you 6x and then catch up to the speed boost and hit you 6x again. It's not like Huntress (another main of mine) where you just need 1 hit to injure. I think if you keep his MS when his knives are out the same, but make his base movement 115% it wouldn't make him too oppressive. It would likely just allow him to catch up around tough corners and loops where he can't really do anything. His power would probably be the same. If you are in an open area with no LOS, he already downs you super quick. I don't think changing his base MS would really make it that much worse for the survivors. It would probably just help him out in areas where he has basically no power due to his MS.
2. Main Event should be able to be held
Too often does Main Event serve zero purpose because you can't use it in the situation you're in. I don't really get why Main Event has this expiration timer, It is sometimes actually worse to use Main Event than your regular knives. So why not let him hold it for a good situation to use it in? Even if they gave a compensation nerf like making it take a little longer to get, that would be fine. I just want them to make this part of his power much more consistent
I know this will get some disagreements and that's cool. I'm interested in your opinions on this.
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Personally, I feel like maybe, just maybe, he should be able to be played by the majority of the playerbase.
As it is right now, most people do not get to actually play him.
Make him usable on Console.
Post edited by Pulsar on5 -
115% would be much more fun to play as. However I would make that it takes 1 extra damage for blades to balance it out.
Main Event shouldn't be timed based. Agree.
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Maim event should be able to be held. Although he will most likely use it to camp a hook stage (no suprise) like myers sitting on a 99 evil within or oni . I don't areally see why he can't hold long to his power like anyone else.
115% speed increase? absolutely not. Trickster even complete trash around loops or over powering. If u make him 115 he might actually be able to down people within reasonable time around tall wall loops while still be absurdly powerful at loops with low walls.
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I do think his main event should be able to be held. Not sure why it isn't, it's hardly stronger or even that comparable to Oni's power. Don't think I want him to be 115% though. But if there's any improvement to his chase potential they'll either make him 115%, give more knives, or lower his laceration required by 1i'd have to presume so i guess it's not terribly out of the picture... shrug
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Breaking LOS is part of Trickster's counterplay that survivors can use against him given the fact that he can spam knives, or uses a ranged attack in general. Therefore, I think it makes sense for him to have the 110% movement speed.
I think he would benefit greatly, though, if his lullaby reverted back to his PTB version, where it was donut-shaped from 24-40m. This would warn survivors that he is getting closer, but also allow him to benefit from TR related perks. However, given that he can't really injure survivors efficiently from afar, it would also make sense to simply get rid of his lullaby entirely, or make the range much smaller such as 0-24m.
Additionally, I think it would be neat if his firing mode was a three-round burst knife throw. I think this would help us Trickster players conserve knives and be more accurate with them overall. Moreover, it would presumably help console players play him effectively too since the recoil would hopefully be removed if he can't spam throw them anymore, besides when Main Event is used. Hopefully this would come with buffs in other areas such as an increased movement speed when aiming and throwing.
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The changes i would like to see is
1) remove the recoil. It just makes it a nightmare on console to play him and makes it frustrating to play him well.
2) throwing a single blade deals double lacerarion. Make it based on a certain distance so he can't just use it point blank.
This would help him in those tall loops where you can only get 1 or 2 blades in each loop and make it a bit more appealing to go for long distance shots
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Dude… 115 trickster would be absolutely miserable to play against. xD
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110 is the drawback for ranged damage, he shouldn't be an exception
Rather, the strength of his power should warrant his lower speed, rather than just being Huntress with Extra Steps.
He needs a... trick up his sleeve when there are tall walls around because if there is enough of a distance advantage, Trickster is getting nowhere in the chase without a major mistake from the survivor.
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I agree that Trickster gets put in a really weird spot by being 110. He essentially doesn't have a power at many tiles because of the way his ranged power works. Huntress and Slinger can still play jungle gyms or long walls efficiently. Trickster can't. I have Bamboozle and Coup De Grace locked in every Trickster build because of that.
Main Event should definitely be held. There should never be entire games where players lose the killer's whole power spike because it times out during hooks and patrols.
What's sad is that even with all those drawbacks, he's still viable. You just have to be mindful of things the killer is incapable of in ways that you don't have to be with other killers.
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Making him move at 115% would make him completely uncounterable in certain loops, so I'm not sure that's a good idea.
Also, if you make his Main Event not run out, you basically add the same problem that Bubba already has in worse. You can completely deny unhooks, while still creating pressure in medium distance. This is not desirable in my opinion.
I think Trickster is in a weird spot. Buffing him would make him completely unbearable to play against even though he could use some tweaks.
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Not as in favor of the 115%.
However he is really bad and needs some buffs.
As you said allow him to hold his Main Event, I don’t know why it’s not already like that. You rarely even get to use it.
I’d improve his map pressure a bit by making knives stay stuck in the survivor. They can choose to either leave them in and be quicker to injure next time he finds them or spend an animation time based on the number of knives to pull them out. This gives him more map pressure by having a little built in slow down and gives value to hitting people with knives even if you don’t injure them.
Bouncing knives would be a nice base kit feature as well since it just increases his skill ceiling for some good players to make some crazy trick shots. Bad killers wouldn’t be able to utilize this well.
Trickster has a lot of unrealized potential with only some small tweaks to him.
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I don't play on console but i hear it's rough, agreed they should fix that
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Interesting ideas.
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Bamboozle is almost essential on him sometimes.
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Much agreed with the Main Event take
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I do think if they keep his power how it is, it would make sense for him to be a little faster than Huntress and Slinger. Unless you are in a completely open area he is significantly worse than them. You have to hit 6x, catch up, and hit 6x again. Him being 110% feels like it hinders him significantly more than it does hinders the other two main ranged killers. The Artist is also a 115% killer which I wanted to point out.
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Good takes
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I can see why they are hesitant to do it but I feel like he just suffers in certain areas he shouldn't, whereas other killers have far more leeway. His power is pretty much useless on a lot of loops because he needs 6 hits to injure, so him being as slow as killers that only need 1 feels really unfair. The move speed hinders him more than the other two ranged killers by a significant amount. Keep in mind that they made the Artist 115%. I think the Main Event power needs consistency too, if Myers can 99 his stalk or Oni can just use his, I think Trickster should be able to hold his main event. A lot of aspects of his gameplay feel very useless when they shouldn't imo.
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Interesting ideas. While breaking LOS is the main form of counterplay against ranged killers, the difference between Trickster and Huntress for example is she can punish mistakes and injure you immediately. Trickster has to hit you 6x to even injure you, so if you are in a tall or strong loop, you take so long to even get an injure on someone. Since you are a 110% killer, if you have to opt for an M1 it's miserable. The 110% hurts him a lot more than it does Huntress or Slinger.
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I don't think it would make his unique power any more oppressive than it already is. He already beats you in an open area. I think it would just help him in loops where he is basically a 110% M1 killer. I can see why they are hesitant to make this change, would def be a PTB moment.
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Biggest thing for me is make his bouncing knives base kit. So much more fun and makes him more interesting than a weaker huntress
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Blade-less Trickster is by far the worst killer in the game.
Even worse than tomahawk-less Huntress.
He just is.
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I really don't know about the 115, trickster no matter how much I love him and main him.
He is not very enjoyable to go against, loop around once get hit by 2 blades repeat. And that would make it worse
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On console his recoil is severe as well as inconsistent & unpredictable. Imagine a small gremlin surv on each shoulder running buffed Boil Over, but without any pattern at all.
With a controller strafing with him is darn near impossible, making him even less effective in chase. Now throw in the common micro-freezes & frame drops and you're missing lots of throws, even with the ricochet effect.
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I can understand where you're coming from. Trickster is the killer I play the most, so I completely understand that having to hit multiple knives around loops where Trickster has a difficult time catching up to a survivor sucks (we literally get outplayed by rocks).
I'd still argue that him being at 115% movement speed would make him too oppressive and difficult to out maneuver. I actually think the main problem is how slow he becomes when he pulls out and throws his knives. It makes him lose too much distance just to miss most of the knives and have to start over again. And on the other extreme end, survivors will get downed almost immediately in areas without line of sight breakers.
That's why I think his throwing style should be a quick and recoil-less three-round burst. He would most likely hit most of his knives around corners if the Trickster aims well, awarding accuracy and skill. And on the other hand, survivors may feel like they can stand a bit of a chance out in the open if the Trickster isn't spamming knives.
Additionally, him not being able to spam knives would warrant an increased walking speed when holding knives. I'd say about 4.0m/s would be fair when holding knives and only slightly slow down when doing the quick burst throw. This would help him catch up better to survivors and not lose an incredible amount of distance, while at the same time not being overly oppressive. Overall, I believe that would reward Trickster for their skill.
In addition, I would very much like the TR to be reduced at least to 0-24m, if not entirely removed.
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Huntress and Slinger can play longer tiles more effectively because they only need 3-4 seconds to fire a shot for potencial to take a health-state.
Keyword: Potential, Not guaranteed
Trickster needs more time to get potencial health-states because he needs more knives... to injure. It simply takes longer to hit 6 knives for health-state then 1 harpoon/hatchet. For that reason, Trickster needs to have 105%+ movement speed when holding his knives because he needs to be able to hold his knives in the loop and loop around the loop while holding his knives.
The fact that he slows down to whopping 96% m/s - 92% m/s is extremely detrimental towards loop design for him. He loses out on being able to hold his knives in loops and constantly has to "ready his knives" and unready his knives while following arbitrary loop. 96% m/s is ridiculous for him as character that relies dps(damage over time to burn health-states). Trickster with his current m/s on holding knives is just going get constantly line of sight broken when attempting to fire his throwing knives making very hard for him to play tall wall loops.
In my conclusion to OP post, I disagree with 115% m/s on him. I think his 110% m/s is fine. More movement when holding his knives would help a lot more at tall loops over giving him 115% m/s which in fact discourages him from using his power(since m1 becomes better then using the power ironically). I think requested this change like +2 years ever since his release and they changed his m/s from 66%-27%(?) to 96 -92%. Dev did not follow 105% m/s that I requested and they gave him a lot less. Trickster has been like that ever since.
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Holding main event is another change I asked 2+ years ago on his release. never occurred. I assume the change never occured because main event by dev is seen as camping tool but... the entire reason why its camping tool is because it legit does not work in loops. he moves 96% m/s, you legit circle around a rock and trickster cannot hit anyone because he is struck spamming knives at 96% moving around a rock. Again if they fix his m/s to be 105% then main event will be 105% m/s so now main event will more useful at not camping. This would be fantastic ammo conservation tool in his kit.
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survivors have strange perception around trickster and its this weird idea that the guy spams knives and that there is no skill-cap to aiming with him but.. i think its mostly misconception because playing him tells different story that he has to reload quite a lot and having 40%+ accuracy with his throwing knives is surprisingly tough. He has 44 knives and in order to down two survivors in 44 knives, you need hit 24/44 knives. that is 60% accuracy. it sounds a lot easier in practice on paper but landing 60% of knives while your opponent moves and at the rate that he fires at, its more challenging then it first appears.
When Almo changes capacity from 60->44, at first I didn't get what the number was referencing until saw number adding up. I think he changed in reference to my devil_hit name refer to 666 number where it takes 6 hits to injure, 6 hits to down and adding up capacity (2+4) is 6. I kinda laugh a little bit after seeing reference. Either way I think trickster little bit more base-knives capacity. I suggest increasing his knives count by +8(52 knives) such that trickster only need 24/52(46% accuracy) to down 2 survivor in 1 reload. I think this would help him time management a little bit more so that he spends a bit less time in reloading lockers because currently, I feel like when I play trickster, I often have to reload on every down(twice as much) compare to playing huntress. Again this just my anecdote experience and it could be that I am not good enough at aiming with him but he feels pretty difficult to aim with.
to recap:
1) Increase his throwing mode movement speed from 96% ->105%-102%
2) Allow him to hold main event
3) Increase his base knives carrying capacity to 52.
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To me Trickster has the following issues:
- The throwing mode movement speed addons are too good that I use them all the time, idd like to see half made basekit and then addons changed. Basicly having addons that are too good is bad because they become the only choice.
- main event needs to be changed, maybe by addons could apply changes, like shotgun mode or something.
- main event is always available when you don't need it and never available when you do.
- I do agree trickster should be 115%, but the amount of knives required for healthstates needs to be changed then.
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Bloody Boa, Melodious Murders, and Caged-Heart shoes are now basekit.
He is now fixed.
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The base knife reduction was a bit ridiculous. His knife hitboxes have always felt a bit off though. Huntress's hit box is 5x as generous for a single health state. But Trickster has to hit the survivor square in the chest multiple times. Huntress just needs to hit someone twice with a refrigerator while Trickster needs to hit them 12 times with a needle.
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yeah i pointed that out since his release, but people that main survivor always said reverse.
"Something along lines of, Just shoot in general direction, spray & pray knives and you win with trickster"
Yeah maybe that's true if your playing really crap survivors but downing survivor is not just about downing 1 survivor in 44 knives, it is about downing people with least time efficiency loss. you know... time management... least reloads per match in order to maximizing pressure on survivor team.
I think trickster is pretty close to being a good killer with a reasonable micro skill-ceiling but like many killers, its little variable that is a bit off that allows you to exploit the killer power enough to get essentially free wins. I do actually fear strong trickster player in 1vs1. If they ever made trickster less exploitable in terms of line of sight, he is formidable and quite difficult to loop for prologue period of time. At least in my experience. In many ways, I think trickster is a little bit underrated as killer.
Like a lot people don't think he's that good and to be fair, they're kinda right but at the same time, he's not that far off from being an impressive challenger.
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