With the big nerf to SH: Pain Resonance, the perk should not be a scourge hook anymore
Hello everyone,
the titel says it all. Whatever you may think about the recent changes to pain resonance, but one thing I want to talk about: in its current state the perk should not be a scourge hook anymore.
In the ancient past, when Artist just dropped, some killers, myself included, loved this perk for the "on the fly regression" it offered, ie you could regress gens by doing your regular objective and didn't have to stop in order to kick a gen, while others called it useless for its RNG-dependant nature. Indeed, there have been games where 3 scourge hooks huddled in the corner of the map that lost its gen the first and were it was nearly impossible to get any value out of them.
Overall though, SH: Pain Resonance proved to be very effective and soon became a killers favorite. It always was somewhat balanced by the fact that you only ever got 4 regular scourge hooks and perceptive survivors could avoid th area around those hooks during chases or even sabotage or breakdown them. The perk always was strongest in trades, when you could sometimes rapidly hook survivors on the same scourge hook, thusly massively regress the farthest regressed gens on the map. Monstrous Shrine added the option for a fifth hook, but this is really niche and not a regular way how this perk is used.
So, now that SH: Pain Resonance has been massively nerfed to only work ONCE per survivor I recon that it should no longer be a scourge hook perk and work at the first time you hook a survivor, regardless on what kind of hook you place them on. Frankly, the perk has already lost most of its power and appeal and keeping it as a scourge hook just feels totally unwarranted and somewhat like a cruel joke: a massive decrease in its value and uptime, when its already got such a reduced number of times it could go off.
Thats all, thanks for listening (or reading) this and I am interested if ya'll agree or if you guys think that this perk is so good that it should retain its status as a scourge hook.
Bye and see you in the fog.
Comments
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Remember when they deleted Ruin so hard that it genuinely could be a regular perk not a Hex perk and it would still be bad?
Pain Res was butchered less than Ruin was, so I don't see it losing the Scourge Hook part.
Sure, it isn't great, but at least it still is able to add an entire extra generator to repair. Making it not a SH perk would require a complete overhaul of either it or Grim Embrace, because otherwise they would fill effectively the same niches.
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Making it not a scourge hook would be a nerf to the perk honestly. The fact that you can avoid using the proc makes it have more value in my eyes.
The new PR is still a top tier perk like it was before but now it's mostly locked to players that want to spread hooks. Instead of using Agi+PR for 9 hooks you can just run new PR alone for 5 or 7.
There is less time needed to be wasted to get your procs since it's only 4 times and also less problems with hook rng since you only need 4 downs for the total value; unlike before where you really wanted Agi for the full value of the perk.
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Oh, yea you do make a good point. Being a Scourge hook you can save it for when you need it later in the match.
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Just make it so you gain a token each time a gen pops
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Thats indeed an aspect that I hadn't thought about. Great catch!
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Yep, it's still a decent perk.
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Yeah, i agree with the point of the nerf it would be to lose its Scourge Hook Part, but calling it a top tier perk is just something i can't agree on. You say you need just 4 downs. In fact you are right but if you put in mind, what you have to do to use it, its way harder. If you really want to have the maximum regression, you have to look, which surv you gonna chase. And 25% for the work of finding a survivor, who hasn't been on a sh until that point + getting the down and hopefully the sh wastes much more time than you gain from the regression. So chasing down survivor to get the regression will make you lose more time.
And i cant be the only one, who experience sh doing almost nothing, because the furthest gen got finished a few seconds before the hook.
These are just my first thoughts about it, so im curious how top tier it will be after tomorrow.
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I'd love to see it maybe gain another effect like adding a couple more scourge hooks to the map.
It would incentive to use multiple SH perks and that might be fun.
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Honestly its gonna be a lot stronger than its getting credit for, think a few will be surprised 22.5 seconds of regression is huge.
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I think it's fine. I know that I will still be using the perk as is (in contrast to overcharge which I used until now or CoB that I never unlocked). I don't mind it being scourge hook too. You have 3 chances to prop it on every survivor, so it's not even really limiting
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I would say that it is a top tier perk but basically locked behind players that want to go for 12 hook games. So it's not a top tier perk for everyone but it's a top tier perk for certain play styles.
And 25% for the work of finding a survivor, who hasn't been on a sh until that point + getting the down and hopefully the sh wastes much more time than you gain from the regression. So chasing down survivor to get the regression will make you lose more time.
I plan on just keeping track of whose stack I've gotten and just play the game normally. You don't need to be putting that amount of thought into pub games.
And i cant be the only one, who experience sh doing almost nothing, because the furthest gen got finished a few seconds before the hook.
Which is a big reason I think making it not a scourge hook would be a nerf. Game sense should allow you to avoid wasting a proc like this. I don't see scenarios where the survivors are playing correctly and you can't avoid wasting procs of the perk. There should always be other gens that have progress on it after one pops or you knowing there is no pressure they currently have on gens to avoid getting your proc eaten.
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No.
Removing the Scourge aspect of it now would be a nerf, not a buff.
Now I know Scourge hooks are RNG etc. ect. but the reality is most of the time you can reach a Scourge hook. (this needs a resolution for all Scourge perks, not just Pain Res)
By being a Scourge hook, you are given the choice to trigger Pain Res or not. Given that you now have only four uses of 25% regression, instead of 8 uses of 15% regression, being able to use those at the correct time is very valuable. If you down someone for the first time, but a generator pops as you're picking them up, you do not want to throw them on a Scourge hook, you don't want to use up your 25% regression when there may not be a generator with 25% progress on it yet, so instead of making a bee-line for the nearest white hook, you just opt for the red. You can use that survivors second hook state to trigger a Pain Res later.
This introduces an aspect of strategy to the perk, instead of being a mindless 'hooks = regression' mechanism that favoured tunnellers.
Remove the Scourge part of the perk and you remove that choice, and you'll see your four limited uses of 25% regression wasted more often than not.
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Thanks for all the input. In my grieving for my baby SC:Pain Res I had totally disregarded all this nuances and strategies involved, but thats why I come with my issues to the forums :) Happy gaming, everyone.
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All you said here is fine and dandy... but have you think what would happen when you are just in front of the hook after a 10 seconds walk because "you thought it is the right moment to proc PR" like you have any real knowledge of how all gens are doing, and just at that moment a gen just pop up? Would you just let the survivor escape because "Oh well, I can't fully proc PR now"? What if you really need that proc because it is "the right moment", but the nearest hook is in the other side of the map or even worst, the only survivor you have found to down is the one with one hook already? What if survivors have realized you have it and are going to somewhere where the map doesn't have any hooks on purpose?
You two don't have though this well, and don't realize that the perk is only useful right now, in it's current version, because you can proc it multiple times reducing the RNG of "proc it when the time is right", as more "dice rolls" more chances you get value from it in one of them. In fact, hook placement is already a big problem, and having the SH spawn well around the map or just in one corner of it makes a difference in the usefulness of the perk even when you can proc it with every hook.
Now, you first need for RNGesus to bless you with good hook placement, then you need to not only be constantly looking at how gen are doing to make use of your strategy of "proc it in the right moment for full value", but being lucky enough to find that survivor that you didn't hook already, down him fast enough for that gen you want to regress to not be fully completed, pick him up, being less than 16 seconds away from the closest SH, get there, pray that no one would try to body block you, and do the hook to proc it.
Do you really think you can do all of this just by "pure skill and intuition" to get full value without depending on seer pure luck? Do you really believe that the planets would align at the same time someone throw a coin that stand vertically in every game for you to do this reliably not 4 times, but even 2 times per game? Because if the answer is yes then damn, you either are the luckiest people on the planet or are the gods of DbD or something 🤣
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Dude, being able to manage the timing in some cases, is better than not being able to manage the timing at all.
Sure, sometimes you might opt for the white hook and the gen pops just as you're about to hook them, of course you just have to suck it up in that case, but that doesn't negate all the instances where the timing doesn't happen that way and you do get to make that choice and have it play out as you intended.
Just because you're not going to be omniscient with perfect knowledge of gen progress at all moments of a match doesn't mean there isn't any value is maintaining gamesense and potentially using any knowledge you do have to your advantage.
Being able to choose when you white-hook someone over not having that choice at all is in all cases a positive to the perk.
"You haven't thought this out" no you've overthought it and hyperfocused on the worst case scenario at the expense of ignoring literally all other scenarios.
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The thing is, it is not in "some" cases, it will be in most of the cases. So, you in fact won't be able to manage the timing at all because there are so many factors out of your control that would make it impossible to make use of the perk for full value in a conscious and effective way in most cases.
And I didn't focus in the "worst case" scenario because I didn't even mention just one case to start with, but all the factors that would have to happen for you to get "full value" on purpose from the perk like you two was saying. The perk would be like wanting to draw an specific card from a deck, and here you are claiming that you would be able to do it so well without depending on pure luck that you would get enough value from it to keep using it.
That's why you haven't thought this well, and still don't do.
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I honestly disagree with it no longer being a Scourge Hook, as that would mean you'd get it every time you hooked a survivor for the first time which, depending on how fast you get your first down(s) means wasted perk tokens.
As already noted, for all that Scourge Hook RNG can screw you, having it tied to a Scourge Hook potentially gives you more control over PR's use. After all, as a Scourge Hook PR doesn't activate the first time you hook a Survivor. It activates the first time you hook a Survivor on a Scourge Hook.
Got a strong start? Use a normal hook and save their second Hook for the perk. Need some early regression? Scourge Hook 'em right away.
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I literally win my Demo games with the only game delay being PR and I go for 12 hooks with little to no camping/tunneling. It's easy to see how this perk will work. Honestly seems like a skill issue and trying to nitpick the perk. Why would I care about games where survivors are goofing around? My hard games are when survivors are glued to gens. If you are not on a gen you are either in chase, healing, or saving.
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And from those 12 hooks you always have a SH nearby and remove the full 15% of the gen of course. You never proc it and you see the gen next to the hook with maybe 1 or 2% done just blow up because the rest of the gens aren't even touched and they just done the one that was being worked on the second you started to hook. And of course, you never hooked the same survivor 2 or 3 times in a row because it is the one survivor that you found and be able to down.
And I'm the one with a skill issue and nitpicking? When you can't see the bigger picture here and are over simplifying things? Sure, buddy. We will talk after a week of the change being done, so you can tell us how much value you did get from the new PR when you don't have 12 chances to proc the perk in a valuable way.
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How are you evaluating this "most cases" thing?
How often do you have a gen pop just as you're about to put someone on the hook? Why do you think that happens a disproportionate amount of times?
You spend about 5-10 seconds getting to and placing someone on the hook. (I forget how long it takes to wiggle off, 8 seconds? 12?) The average game lasts about 10-20 minutes and you can make maybe... 5-10 hooks per game depending on how well it's going, so let's say Average 15 minutes and 7 hooks. That's maybe 60 cumulative seconds of "about to hook" time over the course of 15 minutes, which equates to 6% of the game.
You're telling me all your gens pop in that 6% window?
I think you're little metaphor applies to your position more than it does to mine. Any given generator will have at least 25% of it's progress for 75% of it's duration. 67 seconds of each generator is a viable Pain Res window, and that happens fives times per game. (not accounting for any regression whatsoever which increases this figure) You have 5 minutes and 40 seconds of any given trial in which to trigger Pain Res and get value out of it, which is over 33% of the average match.
I'd say getting value out of Pain Res is precisely 5.5 times more likely than not getting value out of it. And that's when you rely purely on random chance. If you have any way of determining the progress of a given gen, such as literally seeing the gen when you hook someone, or any info perks that track progress, or knowing that x gen was at ~50% about 30 seconds go, then you're increasing those odds in your favour.
Definitely not "most cases".
It's not like trying to draw a specific card from a deck at all. It's more like trying to draw any card that isn't in the suit of Hearts, and you have the ability to check a few cards first in order to see if you can work out what suit is mostly towards the top, plus the chance that the first card is face up anyway so you can see exactly what card you're drawing.
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What you have made clear is that you don't have any idea of what you are talking about and are over simplifying things. Starting for not taking in count a gen can be done as fast as 30 seconds, and by supposing every gen is going to be done one at a time and not multiple with more than one survivor per gen.
But the best part is "an average game last 10-20 minutes"... in what world? I mean, from what alternative reality are you posting this? 10 minutes? Ar we playing the same game? Dude, I can count with one hand the number of times a game has going past the 6-7 minutes mark whatever it is with me escaping, being hooked, getting a 4k or completely destroyed. In this last week, I would be thankful if any game was beyond the 5 minutes mark with all the PTs, toolboxes and BNPs people are bringing.
Again, you are not seeing the big picture here, you are just obfuscated in that theory of how things would go in your mind without taking in count all the things that are out of your control. And sorry, but seeing that you don't give any real number there for anything you said I even doubt you play the game to start with. Not just not playing killer, but playing the game at all.
10 to 20 minutes on average... the joke of the day 🤣
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Are we playing the same game?
Apparently not seeing as you apparently face comp level SWF's every game who genrush 4 survivors to a gen every time?
Your MMR is so huge dude, totally impressed.
But lets pretend your worst case scenario is the more common game format for a second. 30 second gens (requires 4 survivors with PT or 3 with toolboxes/BNP's so it's unlikely you're hooking anyone but ok) gives you 112 seconds between five gens in which you would gain value out of Pain Res. That's still twice the time you're spending carrying survivors to a hook. (carrying the elusive fifth survivor because all four are slamming gens) Even your worst case scenario gives you a better chance at getting Pain res value than not.
Also, you have yet to explain how not having a choice of when you proc Pain res is better than having a choice of when you proc Pain Res.
Post edited by Seraphor on2 -
I run Agi with PR so every down basically is a hit. I don't care if It procs on a gen with nothing on it because games where that happens often are the ones were I 9-12 hook with 1 gen done. My average first kill is between 6-9 hooks deep. The perk is literally around the same level it is currently if you don't camp/tunnel.
I'm just going to keep track of when I put a player on a scourge and avoid scenarios where I have high pressure and the likelihood of the proc being eaten is higher. Early game is the highest chance for the proc to be eaten which isn't that hard to avoid. If 2 players hit a gen then you know how many were on it and the 2nd should be around double that time. You shouldn't have 1 gen with the only progress in the game. You are either already in a winning position or playing vs bad players.
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The funny thing is you are saying it yourself. You use Agi so you can get to the SH 12 times, which means 12 "dice rolls". That's why the perk can be used reliably right now, because you can use it multiple times to remove up to 13.5 charges everytime even if you depend on RNG and things out of your control to have the full value of it, so doesn't matters if that 13.5 charges can be recovered in 8 seconds by two survivors because you would be able to regress them once again if you keep downing people fast.
PR was good because even if you don't get full value in every hook you did, if you keep doing them, you would regress a lot of progress if you were lucky enough for RNGesus to bless you. Now, if you don't get full value with every of the 4 procs you can do, you would get almost nothing as you would be removing less than 22.5 charges, recoverable as fast as 10.71 seconds by 3 survivors with basekit progression, 4 times per game. And getting that full value is not in your hands as depends on a lot of factors that aren't in your control, including at what rate those charges you erased would be recovered.
But like I said, maybe you are either the luckiest player or the strategic god of DbD and you would be able to use the new PR reliably even with all the RNG involved. I want to know if your opinion is the same about this topic in two weeks from now, as tomorrow the patch goes live.
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Dude, 3 survivors with basekit progression does it in just 42.86 seconds. 3 survivors with 1 of them having PT can do the gen in 32.97 seconds, meaning that if they have toolboxes, BNP or other gen progression perks like Overzealous or Friendly Competition they could do it so much faster. Do you see how you don't know what you are talking about?
And if you gain full value in those "112 seconds between five gens", that's 22.5 charges removed at max from one gen, recoverable in 10.71 seconds by 3 survivors with basekit progression, 8.24 seconds with PT. That's less than 4 pallets broken or what it would take you to walk from one gen to another searching for survivors in most maps.
And I really have to explain it by now? Alright: What's good about having a choice if when you have to chose both options are bad unless you are so much lucky for one of the options to be good when you need it? I really need to proc PR right now, but all the hooks are in the other side of the map. But hey, at least I had the option to not do so in case I didn't need it! I hope next time I have a SH nearby gens are progressed a good amount for the option to be good or that I don't down again that one survivor that already proc the perk when I need for it to proc again...
So, instead of having to rely on pure RNG, I would prefer for it to not be a SH and at least being sure that I would get it when I down someone so now the "only" RNG involved is if gens are progressed enough to get the max value. Is really that hard to understand?
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Yea except it isn't 12 and more like 9. Once you are that deep into hook states the game is over. So you need to run Agi+PR for 9 procs. When I use it without it seems to be around 5ish. If you are also getting quick downs the perk would suffocate teams by itself. This is because there would be gens with progress on it and the proc would be 15% and put it in the regressing state. I'm expecting the perk to lose value in games where it is a stomp and gain value in games where I have a harder time going for hooks.
I really don't see this perk being super RNG. Sometimes you get really, really bad hook spawns but I don't find them to be bad overall. Are we going into time to hook players and how that additional time reduces the value from the perk? Kinda lost me where you are going here.
I can literally just go Agi and go from 9 to 7 and while being able to slam the procs early game where they hold more value. Players in my games are either losing or slamming gens. The problems are when players spread out and not stack on a single gen. You're acting like the correct way survivors play is do one gen at a time. There is no new RNG if you are already going for 12 hook games. Agi+ PR will be roughly at the same power it is now. The question for me is basically if I can drop Agi or if it is still feels required.
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Like I said, we will see what happens two weeks from now. I also use PR + DMS as the only regressing in my Nemesis, so we can compare experiences with two different killers.
In my experience, the strength of the perk was being able to proc it every hook and that was what made it good even if it relied in RNGs, because if you were lucky you would get a lot of value from it. Now, you would depend even more on that RNG as know you would only have 4 chances to proc it and do it in a moment you get a "good hit" on the survivors so it would do almost nothing in most games.
You think this is not the case? We will see how things goes from tomorrow on. No point in repeating the same things over and over again.
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If you're running DMS then the reduction of procs is a bit different. I've always felt it was more of a cheese combo but I can see Nemesis really liking it because of the zombies.
You don't run it with Agi do you? With Agi I still see this staying roughly at the power it currently is at and my unknown is more around if it is worth dropping Agi. The issues with missing a proc or bad hook spawns don't feel like actual issues since I mostly run it with Agi, and that is already fixing any RNG problems I could have with the perk. Throw in needing to hook certain players on scourge hooks or avoid putting them on ones doesn't seem like a big issue because of this. Might just be more of the perk being fine but restricted into needing to be paired with Agi.
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I can time it with some slugging...
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This perk would still be somewhat usable if the Killer UI also kept track of hook states or it revealed the auras of survivors who have yet to be hooked on a scourge hook.
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Well, from the first day alone I can say that even if I was right in that when RNG screw you up it will screw you up harder than before, specially with DMS when you got it right you also hit harder than before. Survivors got caught with DMS by surprise more as now they don't know if that next hook is going to proc it or not.
But, I realized something that non of us anticipated before: Disconnects. Now, if someone that wasn't already hooked in the SH disconnects, you lost that token.
So, for the moment, I have to say that it isn't as bad as I though it would be but it is more extreme: It either win you the game, or RNG screw you and it does absolutely nothing, specially if someone denies you its use by disconnecting.
Also, in maps with multiple floors it still sucks 🤣
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
Yea dc to prevent from getting pop was a thing before. I think doing it with new PR is a bit hard unless maybe in a swf where you can call out that the proc went out. Otherwise the dc is probably just in rage and not trying to deny the perk.
I played maybe 7ish games of killer yesterday and had no issue with the perk. Every game was 3-4 pops, all but one was 4, and no wasted hits. Scott jund had a video talking about the patch day and mentioned in 4 hours he got 4 stacks every game. I found the perk to be best without Agi, and it feels really strong. I found the RNG to not be a issue without Agi and the value of the perk is really good for a single perk slot.
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